Hi
So I made a Sorcerer in Pathfinder. I took "craft arms and armor", "craft wondrous item" and some more feats. I have a long term idea with it and so forth.
My sorcerer had a staff, that he used quite frequently and basically the staff has 2 spells left (It cannot be recharged). One of them, is fire on arrows (add 1d4 or so on a arrow holster). But now he found a new and better one. Can I somehow use the old staff, to create into (or use as a component) to create a seperate item Arrow Holster, that our ranger could use (Activated and so forth)?
I know that if I want to improve an item, I can deduce the cost of the previous item and create better one. But I have not stumbled something on re-forming a magical item into something new. My caster does not know those spells on the staff.
Has anyone encountered such task?
My GM does not know either and if not certain, rather denies this action.
tl;dr- Can I craft a magical staff into a arrow holster (With a specific spell) that someone else could use?
No, but if you can reliably UMD those spells from the staff you can use it to meet the corresponding spell prerequisite for an item you're crafting from scratch. That'll save you the +5 Crafting DC for skipping the prereq.
No, but if you can reliably UMD those spells from the staff you can use it to meet the corresponding spell prerequisite for an item you're crafting from scratch. That'll save you the +5 Crafting DC for skipping the prereq.
Thanks for the info!
But already if on the subject. Crafting magical is a bit new to me.
If I want to put the spell, that every time the ranger takes an arrow (And says a trigger word), it has the fire on them- is it possible (Or only limited amount possible)? Or is this something that has to be talked to the GM and agreed upon the item price and if possible like that?
I have read the item creation rules, and there a lot of grey area subject. Thus far, I have seen the current magical items and took those prices, but now I want to do something that might not be there.
No, but if you can reliably UMD those spells from the staff you can use it to meet the corresponding spell prerequisite for an item you're crafting from scratch. That'll save you the +5 Crafting DC for skipping the prereq.Thanks for the info!
But already if on the subject. Crafting magical is a bit new to me.
If I want to put the spell, that every time the ranger takes an arrow (And says a trigger word), it has the fire on them- is it possible (Or only limited amount possible)? Or is this something that has to be talked to the GM and agreed upon the item price and if possible like that?I have read the item creation rules, and there a lot of grey area subject. Thus far, I have seen the current magical items and took those prices, but now I want to do something that might not be there.
Crafting any magic item not already in the books requires GM approval. Even if the CRB guidelines give you a price estimate, the GM may want to charge more (or conceivably less) or disallow the item entirely.
I'm not positive what it is you're interesting in making. Is there a reason you don't just craft the standard flaming property into the ranger's bow?
Crafting any magic item not already in the books requires GM approval. Even if the CRB guidelines give you a price estimate, the GM may want to charge more (or conceivably less) or disallow the item entirely.
I'm not positive what it is you're interesting in making. Is there a reason you don't just craft the standard flaming property into the ranger's bow?
Yes, it somewhat seems it is basically a flaming on the bow. But I don't want to put it on the bow. As the ranger is using it (And we're on a tight schedule and danger) and I'm uncertain for how long does she keep that certain model.
But on the cost side, I checked what You suggested. It seems the same cost should occur and it would on bow.
But if flaming adds 1d6, can I stack them by increasing the bonus cost to make it 2d6 or so? If usual cost is +1 bonus, I want 1d6 would be +2 bonus?
You can craft a wonderous item that casts the spell and just eat the +5 to the crafting dc. It can cast whatever spell you want on the arrows inside and call it a day. No need to muck about with staff mechanics.
That would be a possibility. Though our GM expects the spell to exist in some way (Your slot, scroll, or other). Because otherwise it would not make much sense, how to infuse a spell You do not know.
Then again, one thing troubling here, is that when "flaming" cost is +1 (2k gold), then how does it work on a quiver. As if You add flaming on an item, it should be +1 already, making that You spend +2 cost (8k gp) in the "blade" in total to make a "flaming longsword". But if I just want to make a quiver that adds the damage, should I add some more cost, other than my spell in some form (or +5 DC for other people) and 2,000 gp (+1 bonus)?Or did I get something mixed up here? Would appreciate some clearing up.
But if flaming adds 1d6, can I stack them by increasing the bonus cost to make it 2d6 or so?
Nope, there is no such thing as double-flaming. But you could add one or more of the other elemental enhancements (even frost, as they won't interact) to get another d6 per. If you're only interested in fire, you can upgrade flaming (+1 bonus) to flaming burst (+2 bonus), which acts as flaming but does additional fire damage on a critical hit.
If you're not sure how long the ranger will keep her bow, you can make 50 magic arrows flaming for the same cost as adding it to the bow.
Enchanting a quiver (that's what you mean by "arrow holster," right?) so that it makes arrows flaming for the round when pulled from it by the wearer is almost the same as putting flaming on a bow... except that you could divvy up properties between bow and quiver and save buttloads of money.
That is, instead of putting flaming and frost on your +1 bow, you could have a flaming +1 bow and a frost quiver. The former option costs roughly 18,000. The latter costs only 8,000+(2000 if we price the quiver like a bow)=10,000.
Archery already has the advantage that you can divvy up properties between bow and batches of arrows. Being able to divvy them up three ways is just too good, IMHO.
The only solution that occurs to me is to say that the quiver (a) only works on otherwise nonmagical arrows, (b) makes them +1 (at least) as well as flaming (or whatever), and (c) stops working after enhancing 50 arrows. That's just as balanced as making a batch of enchanted arrows and using them in an possibly-enchanted bow.
Hope that all made sense.
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But if flaming adds 1d6, can I stack them by increasing the bonus cost to make it 2d6 or so?Nope, there is no such thing as double-flaming.
The Rod of Liberace.
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You can craft a wonderous item that casts the spell and just eat the +5 to the crafting dc. It can cast whatever spell you want on the arrows inside and call it a day. No need to muck about with staff mechanics.That would be a possibility. Though our GM expects the spell to exist in some way (Your slot, scroll, or other). Because otherwise it would not make much sense, how to infuse a spell You do not know.
Then again, one thing troubling here, is that when "flaming" cost is +1 (2k gold), then how does it work on a quiver. As if You add flaming on an item, it should be +1 already, making that You spend +2 cost (8k gp) in the "blade" in total to make a "flaming longsword". But if I just want to make a quiver that adds the damage, should I add some more cost, other than my spell in some form (or +5 DC for other people) and 2,000 gp (+1 bonus)?Or did I get something mixed up here? Would appreciate some clearing up.
You don't need to know the spell for crafting things except spell completion items like scrolls and wands. Wondrous items are not that.
Make a wondrous item in this case a quiver that casts flame arrow on the arrows inside it. Make it a command word item and it is pretty cheap.
spell level *caster level*1800=3*5*1800
You make it at minimum caster level since it doesn't really matter.
Cost of 27000 gold. You can reduce that by making it usable by a specific class and alignment along with requiring a skill to use. That drops the price by 70% giving you a cost of 8100 gold.
8100 gold for a straight 1d6 fire damage is a bargain.
You can drop the price further if you make it a charge per day item.
So yeah it is about 8k gold but this doesn't increase the cost of your other weapon enchantments. If you enchant the arrows or the bow normally this stacks with the flaming weapon property.
Also again you don't need to actually know the spell unless you are making a spell completion item.
That help you?
Long informative and good info text
I'm a level 7 sorcerer who does not possess that spell (Just for info). I do understand that a DC+5 would be added, if I want to create without an real spell (or item), but a GM ruling in our game has limited that You need to cast the spell (But I have the staff for it, so that's ok).
The item cost is usually where it gets me, that how much it really cost to craft it. Usually I have a long discussion with the GM about it and we both have doubts.
I understand that the feat "Craft wondrous Item" will work in this case.
The idea Fuzzy-Wuzzy gave is also a good balance:
The only solution that occurs to me is to say that the quiver (a) only works on otherwise nonmagical arrows, (b) makes them +1 (at least) as well as flaming (or whatever), and (c) stops working after enhancing 50 arrows. That's just as balanced as making a batch of enchanted arrows and using them in an possibly-enchanted bow.
But now the cost is questionable. "Flaming" cost is 2,000 gp (+1 bonus). Though the page does say that if it's a command word item, it makes it the Spell*caster*1,800gp cost. So now I'm confused, which is actually correct handling? Though logical would be perhaps that for a quiver, the more expensive part is more logical. Any ideas or overruling?
Sorry if my confusion is confusing, just want to make it clear, so I could present it to my GM and all would be legit and fun.
PS: I do want it to be a command word item, but uncertain of the other limitations for cost reduction- race, skill, and such. As going for continuous would be only 200gp (around) extra. It does sound interesting. Would You happen to have some source for it, so I could dig into it a bit more?
If the quiver is command-word activated, I would base its price on 1800 gp instead of 2000. But are you sure you want that? It means the ranger has to spend a standard action activating the quiver, which is a pain if you're in combat already. (That pain is what gets you the 10% discount.) Anyway, other than that possible tweak, the quiver I suggested should be priced exactly like a batch of 50 +1 flaming (or whatever) arrows, because the final result is the same.
I'm afraid the reductions for limitations of race/skill/alignment are there for the GM to use to create new items. No GM worth their salt will let a PC craft something with such discounts, since the supposed limitations won't actually limit them at all. This falls under "just because the guidelines show a way to price it doesn't mean you get to do it at all, let alone at that price."
If the quiver is command-word activated, I would base its price on 1800 gp instead of 2000. But are you sure you want that? It means the ranger has to spend a standard action activating the quiver, which is a pain if you're in combat already. (That pain is what gets you the 10% discount.) Anyway, other than that possible tweak, the quiver I suggested should be priced exactly like a batch of 50 +1 flaming (or whatever) arrows, because the final result is the same.
So if I would like to make the 50 arrow quiver that has 50 charges of flaming arrows (Without command word), it would cost total of 2,000 gp to craft? Just clarifying.
If the quiver is command-word activated, I would base its price on 1800 gp instead of 2000. But are you sure you want that? It means the ranger has to spend a standard action activating the quiver, which is a pain if you're in combat already. (That pain is what gets you the 10% discount.) Anyway, other than that possible tweak, the quiver I suggested should be priced exactly like a batch of 50 +1 flaming (or whatever) arrows, because the final result is the same.So if I would like to make the 50 arrow quiver that has 50 charges of flaming arrows (Without command word), it would cost total of 2,000 gp to craft? Just clarifying.
Yes, except it has to make them into +1 flaming arrows, because you can't put a magical enhancement on a weapon w/o a bonus. So 8,000 gp, but you do get that +1 bonus for the money.
BTW, I've been assuming you want to make a quiver for the flavor; if not, just make some magic arrows straight out of the book and skip the customizations.... The only mechanical advantage you could get from the quiver is if the GM let you stack properties it bestows with properties of already-enchanted arrows, and as mentioned before the GM really shouldn't let you get away with that.
You cannot just blindly apply the pricing guidelines.
Pricing New Items
The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions.
Example: Rob's cleric wants to create a heavy mace with a continuous true strike ability, granting its wielder a +20 insight bonus on attack rolls. The formula for a continuous spell effect is spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp, for a total of 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica, the GM, points out that a +5 enhancement bonus on a weapon costs 50,000 gp, and the +20 bonus from true strike is much better than the +5 bonus from standard weapon enhancement, and suggests a price of 200,000 gp for the mace. Rob agrees that using the formula in this way is unreasonable and decides to craft a +1 heavy mace using the standard weapon pricing rules instead.
Example: Patrick's wizard wants to create bracers with a continuous mage armor ability, granting the wearer a +4 armor bonus to AC. The formula indicates this would cost 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica reminds him that bracers of armor +4 are priced at 16,000 gp and Patrick's bracers should have that price as well. Patrick agrees, and because he only has 2,000 gp to spend, he decides to spend 1,000 gp of that to craft bracers of armor +1 using the standard bracer prices.
Some new items are really existing magic items with a different weapon or armor type, such as a dagger of venom that is a rapier instead of a dagger or a lion's shield that's a wooden shield instead of a metal shield. For these items, just replace the price of the nonmagical masterwork item with the cost of the new type of item. For example, a rapier of venom has a price of 8,320 gp instead of the dagger of venom's price of 8,302 gp.
Making all the arrows in the quiver flame is equivalent to making a bow or 50 arrows flaming. It should therefore be priced the same. "Just put flame arrow on everything" is like "just have continuous true strike" or "just have continuous mage armor."
BTW, I've been assuming you want to make a quiver for the flavor; if not, just make some magic arrows straight out of the book and skip the customizations....
You are correct on the flavor part. The 3-stack thing I know my GM does not approve, as it's too OP in his book and I understand why.
So I see that if I want to make the quiver (or 50 arrows straight) into the flaming arrows, either way I'm making them +1 and flaming, which would be 8,000 gp, as You brought out.
The reason why I considered the activation, is that the ranger would not always be wasting the arrows, if she did not want to use them (For what ever reason).
Either way, all of You give quite some good ideas and I thank You all for it. Cleared a lot for me :)
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Cost of 27000 gold. You can reduce that by making it usable by a specific class and alignment along with requiring a skill to use. That drops the price by 70% giving you a cost of 8100 gold.
Class and alignment requirements don't reduce the cost that way, only the selling price.
Other Considerations: Once you have a cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.
In the rules, cost is the production cost, price is the selling price.
And the obligatory SKR citation:
So more than likely, the price will be as if the light/esplend worked for everyone despite the fact it doesn't.Correct.
When building an item, you calculate the cost to create it as if it were in the hands of an optimal user. Otherwise it's basically cheating. Observe:
Ezren makes a headband of vast intelligence +6. Cost to create: 18,000 gp
vs.
Ezren makes a headband of vast intelligence +6, but it only works for male humans (discount!) named Ezren (discount!) who are at least "old" age (discount) and were born in Absalom (discount!). Cost to create: ridiculously cheap, even though it works exactly like a standard headband +6.
...
Or use craft combos to make 1 shot custom arrows. Can always make a 1 use scorching ray arrow. Or make a few. They already have quivers of holding, so you won't need to get weird there, just add trick arrows. The sad part is that to add effects they need a base of +1, hence making 1 shot arrows for a couple hundred each. There are arrows and sling bolts in the books that you can use as examples. The +1 on the bow won't stack with the +1 on the arrows, but any effects will stack, except same effect....doubt shooting flaming arrows from a flaming bow will do anything more than look cool. But a Scorching Ray arrow shot from a flaming bow could do some serious fire damage. The arrow would not make it a touch attack, but would toss on the extra fire damage.
And as said before, all crafting must be approved by the GM, so you could end up with nothing trick, just bread and butter enchants.
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As already pointed out the simplest way is to have an item that cast Flame Arrow x times/day
Flame ArrowSchool transmutation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a drop of oil and a small piece of flint)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target fifty projectiles, all of which must be together at the time of casting
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
This spell allows you to turn ammunition (such as arrows, crossbow bolts, shuriken, and sling stones) into fiery projectiles. Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits. A flaming projectile can easily ignite a flammable object or structure, but it won't ignite a creature it strikes.
Minimum caster level 5, minimum duration 50 minutes, 1d6 fire damage, it don't require magical arrows.
As the effect last 50 minutes using a standard action to activate shouldn't be a problem (at least most of the time), as you can activate it well in advance.For a small increase in price you can make it an automatic effect every time the user draw an arrow, but then it will activate every time he draw an arrow, and sometime that can be a drawback (especially if your target is healed by fire).
Cost: 1800*5*3= 27.000 for 5 or unlimited uses day (the cost is the same, generally limited or unlimited use is a choice of the GM, in most games 5 uses/day are equivalent to unlimited uses for a spell with a durations in the teens of minutes).
Reducing the number of daily use will rapidly reduce the cost. A two used/day item would cost only 10.800 gp.
Pricey? Yes, but it has a few advantages when compared with adding the flaming ability to a bow:
- the user can pull out a few arrows and give them to other characters;
- it don't add to the cost of adding further abilities to the bow (only relevant if the next ability push the bow total equivalent bonus above +8);
- it can push the bow+arrow total ability over the limit of +10, as it don't add a weapon property, it only add fire damage to the arrow.
Just for the record (I know that almost no one enforce that), the flaming ability for weapons require a standard action to be activated, then it stay on forever and don't harm the wielder.
As the flaming weapon is "sheathed in fire" that can be very annoying if you are invisible, as it will give away your position, or if you are in a populated area (who will really like that adventurer that is constantly starting fires every time his weapon brush something).