Is American exceptionalism a myth?

To be honest I think a more important point is that giving aid is a) not a competition and b) doesn't make a country better.

There is no best country, you might have a preferred one, and that will often be your own, but no country is perfect just like no person or no thing in nature is.

Don't mess with Eden Prairie. Byoches.

Yall saw Mallratz. That mall is a hellhole.

Wow.

That mall is now completely refurbished and one of the best in the region.

Not that I care. I'm not from Eden Prairie.

I'm from EDINA, byoches. ;)

That's where my rich auntee lived with her schnauzers.

Bruno Kristensen wrote:

stuff

** spoiler omitted **

Y'all may now return to completely misunderstanding what "American exceptionalism" means.

Sorry if it sounded like America-bashing. It wasn't. America IS doing a lot, and my hat is off for that. But Wolfthulhu made some claims about America being the biggest, bestest [sic] donator of foreign aid. And it simply isn't, if you look at it from a GNI perspective.

Also, if you look at the same site I listed before, there's a comparison that takes "quality of donations" and "private donations" into account. The US is still not on top. Being in the top-20 or whatever they are is still good, but "American Exceptionalism" apparently for some also includes a belief that America is better in every aspect on any aspect. That is not true.

The US is still not on top. Being in the top-20 or whatever they are is still good, but "American Exceptionalism" apparently for some also includes a belief that America is better in every aspect on any aspect. That is not true.

The OP asked about Alexis de Tocqueville's idea of American Exceptionalism. He also seemed to make the mistake that Tocqueville was talking about the "America's #1" feeling that pretty much everyone else is discussing.

However, that was not that Tocequville was talking about. He was talking about how unique American democracy was, compared to other democracies that had fallen into despotism.

"Exceptional" means "out of the norm in a positive manner."

Tocqueville also said that America would fail when 'soft despotism' took over. He couldn't imagine a tyrant coming to power to crush the American spirit. Instead, he foresaw a time when laws and regulations would incrementally chip away at the spirit of individualism that permeated American civic life. Where individuals once came together to provide all the things their society needed, gradually the State would intervene, and little by little supplant that cooperative individualism with state control, until people woke up to find they were no longer citizens, but subjects.

Let me illustrate the point for you.

I have 10 dollars.

You have 1000 dollars.

I give 1 dollar to charity.

You give 50 dollars to charity.

Yes, your 50 dollars is a bigger contribution, no doubt there.

But my 1 dollar is twice as much, compared to how much I have.

...

I was thinking about this some more. Going to your comparison here, with your 1 dollars, you could feed one starving children in a 3rd world country for a month, or so the commericials say. With my 50 dollars, I could feed 50 children for a month or 1 child for 50 months (about 4 years). So your contribution may put off their death for a month, while mine might get them past the part of their life where they are most likely to die through malnutrition.

So while it is true that your sacrifice is twice what mine is, one thing you might not be considering is that in many cases there is a threshhold you must cross before it is even meaningful. A child tossing a dollar at an international problem is insignificant usually, even if that was half of that child's allowence (which is why it pissed me off when I hear politicians taking money from a child that sold their bike). Someone worth $100 billion tossing $500 million at the problem is going to have a much more significant impact, even though it is a much smaller portion of their wealth.

American Exceptionalism is a multi-faceted phonomenon. At it's brightest it's an inspiration for the country to be great. At it's worst it's the image of American arrogance the "Ugly American", a belief that this country should be immune to the requirement of respecting others even when it comes to common courteises such as the recent digs at some facets of Obama's behavior abroad.

But it's more ingrained than that. Here's one classic example. The Olympics usually begins with a precession of Nations where the athletic delegations parade around and they each bow thier flags in respect to the host country. The United States delegations always exempt themselves to the rule, they bow the flag to no one. Exceptionalism is part of the belief that while we may advocate international law and a standard of behavior for other nations, our compliance is optional at best.

I do think it's got some deep roots, and is in part an attempt to compensate for a sense of cultural inferiority to our European founders, perhaps even a sense of uncomfortableness with many of the Founding Fathers themselves who were educated by European standards.

And until you find a site that accurately reflects the fact that no other nation can provide the sort of first-response capability that the Unites States can, I'll take your numbers with a grain of salt. Besides, that site also says private investment in a foreign country doesn't count, but creating jobs so people can eat and earn a living is most certainly better than living in squalor and hoping the town goat produces enough milk this season, relying on that corrupt international body known as the UN manages to send a bag of rice to your village. You may not like Nike, but they do pay their unskilled workers better than the local average, as evidenced by the fact that when Nike opened up plants in Asia, people lined up outside before the plant even opened, hoping they could get a job.

Sorry, am I to find support for your argument? LOL. That's not how debating works.

Yes, the US does more than any other country, I've conceded that point (it was actually never a point in my mind).

But compared to per capita and GNI, the US is far behind.

And someone (might have been you, might have been someone else) said that it didn't consider the many private contributions made by the American people. Well, it doesn't consider the many private contributions made by citizens of any nation, so let us leave that out, as I wouldn't be surprised if the average Danish person (using this, because that's what I'm familiar with) gives more than the average American. No, I don't have any reliable source to back that up, but neither did the person who originally raised the question of private contributions, so let us not waste time debating that aspect.

Furthermore, you are welcome to take the numbers with a grain of salt. In fact, I encourage anyone to do that. But the OECD is probably the closest thing we will get to a reliable source on this. If you have a better source, feel free to share.

Does American companies create more jobs in foreign countries than, say, Danish companies? Undoubtedly. There are, after all more than 300.000.000 people in the US, compared to the 5.500.000 people in Denmark. That's a factor of approx. 55:1. I would assume that means there are about 55 times as many big companies in the US as well (give or take 10%). Still, at a factor of 55:1, isn't it a little strange that the US "only" gave 25 billion in foreign aid in 2008, while Denmark gave 2.5 billion. That's $83 per person (US) and $455 per person (Denmark). Factor: 1:5.5

As to your ability to deploy massive support at a very short notice. I never questioned that. You have by far the most powerful army, navy and air force in the world. Not other country could do that. But that's the price you pay for being the only real super power left in the world.

I was thinking about this some more. Going to your comparison here, with your 1 dollars, you could feed one starving children in a 3rd world country for a month, or so the commericials say. With my 50 dollars, I could feed 50 children for a month or 1 child for 50 months (about 4 years). So your contribution may put off their death for a month, while mine might get them past the part of their life where they are most likely to die through malnutrition.

So while it is true that your sacrifice is twice what mine is, one thing you might not be considering is that in many cases there is a threshhold you must cross before it is even meaningful. A child tossing a dollar at an international problem is insignificant usually, even if that was half of that child's allowence (which is why it pissed me off when I hear politicians taking money from a child that sold their bike). Someone worth $100 billion tossing $500 million at the problem is going to have a much more significant impact, even though it is a much smaller portion of their wealth.

Valid point. But see my previous post. I'm giving (or rather, the Danish government is) $455 (2008) per person. The US is giving $83. So, we are giving a larger portion of our GNI and we are giving more per person. I'm not trying to sound superior, because I don't think we are, but the claim that the US is doing more is only true from one limited perspective.

USA TODAY says Americans donate $300 billion anually to charity. Forbes.com says.The Comparative Nonprofit Sector Project at the Johns Hopkins Center for Civil Society Studies compiled a ranking of private philanthropy in 36 countries from 1995 to 2002. Based on giving alone, the U.S. comes first, giving 1.85% of GDP, followed by Israel at 1.34% and Canada at 1.17%. But based on volunteerism alone, the Netherlands comes first, followed by Sweden and then the U.S.

But I believe America is exceptional for a host of other reasons than our charity.

AMERICA, WHY I LOVE HER

You ask me Why I Love Her?
Well, give me time and I'll explain.
Have you seen a Kansas sunset
Or an Arizona rain?
Have you drifted on a bayou
Down Louisiana way?
Have you watched a cold fog drifting
Over San Francisco Bay?
Have you heard a bobwhite calling
In the Carolina pines,
Or heard the bellow of a diesel
At the Appalachia mines?
Does the call of Niagara thrill you
When you hear her waters roar?
Do you look with awe and wonder
At her Massachusetts shore,
Where men who braved a hard new world
First stepped on Plymouth's rock?
And do you think of them when you stroll
Along a New York City dock?
Have you seen a snowflake drifting
In the Rockies, way up high?
Have you seen the sun come blazing down
From a bright Nevada sky?
Do you hail to the Columbia
As she rushes to the sea,
Or bow your head at Gettysburg
At our struggle to be free?
Have you seen the mighty Tetons?
Have you watched an eagle soar?
Have you seen the Mississippi
Roll along Missouri's shore?
Have you felt a chill at Michigan
When on a winter's day
Her waters rage along the shore
In thunderous display?
Does the word "Aloha" make you warm?
Do you stare in disbelief
When you see the surf
Come roaring in at Waimea Reef?
From Alaska's cold to the Everglades
From the Rio Grande to Maine,
My heart cries out, my pulse runs fast
At the might of her domain.
You ask me Why I Love Her?
I've a million reasons why:
My Beautiful America,
Beneath God's wide, wide sky

Erik Mona wrote:

Dummy.

In order to keep our messageboards friendly and fun, here are some reminders about our policies: wrote:

Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others

Oooh, I'm calling Ross!

Yeah...the temptation to flag that post was near overwhelming.

Wolfthulhu wrote:

The US has given more aid to foreign countries than any other nation in the world. In the name of humanity, with nothing to gain at all except the good will of the people (more often what we receive is scorn, once the aid is given).

How large a portion of your gross national product goes to foreign aid? Last time I checked, US wasn't even in the top-25 when considering GNP.

Less than 1% of the US budget goes to foreign aid. We are in last place in the "first world" in terms of giving. European nations put our aid to shame. The idea that a huge % of our money goes to foreign aid is long-flogged myth. Sorry, dems da facts.

Bruno Kristensen wrote:

Wolfthulhu wrote:

The US has given more aid to foreign countries than any other nation in the world. In the name of humanity, with nothing to gain at all except the good will of the people (more often what we receive is scorn, once the aid is given).

How large a portion of your gross national product goes to foreign aid? Last time I checked, US wasn't even in the top-25 when considering GNP.

Less than 1% of the US budget goes to foreign aid. We are in last place in the "first world" in terms of giving. European nations put our aid to shame. The idea that a huge % of our money goes to foreign aid is long-flogged myth. Sorry, dems da facts.

USA TODAY says Americans donate $300 billion anually to charity. Forbes.com says.The Comparative Nonprofit Sector Project at the Johns Hopkins Center for Civil Society Studies compiled a ranking of private philanthropy in 36 countries from 1995 to 2002. Based on giving alone, the U.S. comes first, giving 1.85% of GDP, followed by Israel at 1.34% and Canada at 1.17%. But based on volunteerism alone, the Netherlands comes first, followed by Sweden and then the U.S.

But I believe America is exceptional for a host of other reasons than our charity.

Of the $122.8 billion of foreign aid provided by Americans in 2005 (the most current data available), $95.5 billion, or 79 percent, came from private foundations, corporations, voluntary organizations, universities, religious organizations and individuals, says the annual Index of Global Philanthropy.

Read more: http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2007/May/20070524165115zjsredna0 .2997553.html#ixzz0jIhiDxf7

Even though the American government may budget spend less that 1% of the budget our that still a greater amount of money than any other country donates. Besides that the american people donate nearly 4 times the amount the government does. I heard a news report last summer saying that U.S. is responsable the 80% of the worlds foreign aid. That means we give 400% more than all the rest of the world combined.

And after all the aid we give the same countries that we give to dont appreciate what we do for them and still hate us for the most part. Would make me very happy if the American government budgeted 0% for foreign aid for all the good it does.

And after all the aid we give the same countries that we give to don't appreciate what we do for them and still hate us for the most part.

You hang around with the wrong foreigners then. The foreigners I hang out with like us, for the most part (although the Brits and Canadians both throw up their hands and walk away when told how 'awful' their health care is, since they know better).

I find, that if you treat them like anyone else, and don't constantly bring up how 'awful' their countries are and how 'they owe us' for crap that happened before any of us were born, they do a really convincing imitation of being human beings, like us.

Amusing anecdote about perceptions of Americans overseas: I was in Israel once, and an Israeli colleague remarked that he "hated the American accent." I was pretty peeved about it, so I made some snarky remark back. He said, "no, that's a SOUTHERN accent. I like that one." Then he proceeded to do a pretty funny imitation of what I'd call a Jersey accent, and explained that THAT was the accent he hated.

Another observation from my time in Israel: young adult Palestinians tended to be rude or openly hostile towards us (Americans always stand out overseas; most of us cannot pretend to be French or British, for instance). However, older Palestinians tended to be polite and cordial. The same was more or less true of the Israelis; the older ones were friendly, but the younger ones were more likely to be stand-off-ish. I asked a Palestinian colleague about it. He explained that the young Palestinians were caught up in the ideology of the intifada, but the older ones, who were pragmatic enough to realize that their economy is built on tourism, were accordingly nicer to foreigners. In the case of the Israelis, I think it was mainly just the generation gap. The takeaway is this: people is other countries may dislike Americans, but they sure like American money.

When we were in Italy last summer, everyone mistook us for English. Eventually we found out why. We were using Italian, and the general assumption is that Americans don't learn other languages.

I think the problem ther is saying the people of a country this, the people of a country that. Some Americans dislike the French, and black people and gay people, it doesn't mean that America does.

Plenty of Irish people are Catholic, I'm not, still Irish though.

You can't generalise, not all Muslims hate America, many live there and love the country just as much as anyone else. People are more complicated than that, and if people are, a country is, so really every country is in its own way unique and different, whether those differences are small or large, ecomonic or geographic.

A country can't be the best, and all the people in one country will never all be the same, if nothing else there are always rich and poor people in every nation on earth, in differing mixtures.

When we were in Italy last summer, everyone mistook us for English. Eventually we found out why. We were using Italian, and the general assumption is that Americans don't learn other languages.

I've always heard that Italians really appreciate it when foreigners try to speak Italian, even if they bungle it. My experience with the French is that they resent foreigners butchering their language. To be fair, I think most Americans do, too--ever had to deal with a tech support person who spoke poor English?

Celestial Healer wrote:

When we were in Italy last summer, everyone mistook us for English. Eventually we found out why. We were using Italian, and the general assumption is that Americans don't learn other languages.

I've always heard that Italians really appreciate it when foreigners try to speak Italian, even if they bungle it. My experience with the French is that they resent foreigners butchering their language. To be fair, I think most Americans do, too--ever had to deal with a tech support person who spoke poor English?

Well that is a bit different, if I calling a company that I am a customer for and want assistance, I don't want there to be confusion.

I remember one time, me and my wife were on vacation, and I realized that our cellphone bill was due. The phone had a "service" number built into it, so while I was driving for several hours, my wife took my phone, called the number and tried to pay for the phone bill for my phone, from my phone, with my card number. The person on the other end was based in another country. Needless to say there was some confusion, trying to get my phone bill paid for from my phone with my credit card number. Eventually my wife just said, "Never mind we'll take care of it when we get home." Since that time, I only pay with the automated system online so I don't have to deal with service people.

Now when I deal with people I meet who are not native speakers. I don't blow them off for not being perfect at english (american?), I try my best to understand them and get our ideas across. Most often I deal with spanish speakers, which I make pathetic attempts at using spanish occasionally. But when I go to a service, I don't want there to be confusion because of language barriers.

Celestial Healer wrote:

When we were in Italy last summer, everyone mistook us for English. Eventually we found out why. We were using Italian, and the general assumption is that Americans don't learn other languages.

I've always heard that Italians really appreciate it when foreigners try to speak Italian, even if they bungle it. My experience with the French is that they resent foreigners butchering their language. To be fair, I think most Americans do, too--ever had to deal with a tech support person who spoke poor English?

Not true the French usually appreciate it to, most people do. Not assuming that everyone should know english is a good start towards people liking you, that and apparently everyone in europe loves Irish people, so its better to wear Green than the Union Jack or Stars and Stripes! :p

Celestial Healer wrote:

When we were in Italy last summer, everyone mistook us for English. Eventually we found out why. We were using Italian, and the general assumption is that Americans don't learn other languages.

I've always heard that Italians really appreciate it when foreigners try to speak Italian, even if they bungle it. My experience with the French is that they resent foreigners butchering their language. To be fair, I think most Americans do, too--ever had to deal with a tech support person who spoke poor English?

Strange- I've heard the exact opposite from my wife regarding the French. Maybe they don't like REALLY bad, reading out of the book french? I dunno.

Ison wrote:

And after all the aid we give the same countries that we give to don't appreciate what we do for them and still hate us for the most part.

You hang around with the wrong foreigners then. The foreigners I hang out with like us, for the most part (although the Brits and Canadians both throw up their hands and walk away when told how 'awful' their health care is, since they know better).

I find, that if you treat them like anyone else, and don't constantly bring up how 'awful' their countries are and how 'they owe us' for crap that happened before any of us were born, they do a really convincing imitation of being human beings, like us.

If you are hanging out with Canadians and British thats why. Canada is the best neighbor a country could hope to have.I have poked fun at Canadians in the past but after I look at all the other countries that we could have had to share a continent with Im so happy and proud to be a neighbor to such a great and friendly people. The British have been very strong supporters of American intrest as well. Im not aware of the U.S. sending either of them foreign aid unless there is some kind of disaster. I suppose both of these countries are major contributers to foreign aid. I wonder how they feel about the amount and use of the aid they donate.

Charlie Bell wrote:

Celestial Healer wrote:

When we were in Italy last summer, everyone mistook us for English. Eventually we found out why. We were using Italian, and the general assumption is that Americans don't learn other languages.

I've always heard that Italians really appreciate it when foreigners try to speak Italian, even if they bungle it. My experience with the French is that they resent foreigners butchering their language. To be fair, I think most Americans do, too--ever had to deal with a tech support person who spoke poor English?

Strange- I've heard the exact opposite from my wife regarding the French. Maybe they don't like REALLY bad, reading out of the book french? I dunno.

A friend of mine was in the Air Force reserve and did a 2 week training stint at a NATO base in France. In his experience, it was the Parisians that give him the most attitude (even when he tried to use French). Outside of Paris, the French were extremely friendly and helpful. He and a friend were even invited to a family's home for dinner because the man's grandfather had fought along side Americans in WWII.

It really varies from place to place and people to people.

@vagrant-poet and Freehold DM: It was only in my admittedly limited experience. At the time, I was in Paris with 2 friends, all of us Americans: a fluent French speaker, a poor French speaker, and a non-French speaker (me). The fluent guy was fine, but everyone was annoyed by the poor French speaker. TBH though, even I was annoyed by his French (mis)pronunciation, and I didn't speak French at the time. My fluent friend taught me a couple of phrases and made sure I knew how to pronounce them right. I'm sure I still spoke with an accent, but even so, I got along OK.

In his experience, it was the Parisians that give him the most attitude (even when he tried to use French). Outside of Paris, the French were extremely friendly and helpful. It really varies from place to place and people to people.

This.

Not all Europeans are snooty, effeminate communists.
Not all Americans are illiterate, religious-fanatic gunmen.

Amazing, isn't it!

Not all Americans are illiterate, religious-fanatic gunmen.

I think that depends on whether you're talking about real Americans or whatever the alternative to real Americans is.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Not all Americans are illiterate, religious-fanatic gunmen.

I think that depends on whether you're talking about real Americans or whatever the alternative to real Americans is.

Hey! I'm literate. ;)

Sebastian wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Not all Americans are illiterate, religious-fanatic gunmen.

I think that depends on whether you're talking about real Americans or whatever the alternative to real Americans is.

Hey! I'm literate. ;)

I like guns!

Books and religion you can keep.

:)

And...yes.

Especially now a days (read: the last ten years. We pretty much suck anymore.)

The Americans and French its funny to watch from the sidelines :-)

1. Americans say "We say we saved your asses in two world wars"

The French are too polite to say "without us you would still be an English colony" - Check out your history and ask the English.

They also are a little grumpy about you selling arms and supplies to the Germans during both wars while they were fighting them. Then coming in late and claiming all the glory.

2. The Americans say the French are rude and arrogant. Parisians dismiss you haughtily.

Parisians regard anybody from anywhere but Paris as being lesser even other French people.

I was talking with friends of my father I asked the husband where he was from - he lovingly described his suburb in Paris, I asked his wife where she was from, the husband rudely interrupted waved his hand dismissively and said "Meh she is from nowhere it is not even on the map" I the argument that followed was highly entertaining.

3. The French like Australians. My parents and aunt spent a few months travelling down the canals in a houseboat. My parents desperately want to go back for another visit and my aunt is getting ready to go live there for a few years.

4. I have visited the US when I was very young. The people I met were very warm and friendly and I had a great time - Only did the West coast would have liked to see the US that doesn't get shown on tv.

The thing is it gave me a perspective on what the media shows and what reality is.

While I may think a lot of your Post Puritanism Politics are crazy and not like the NeoCons. All the Americans I have met and talked to are nice people.

Not all Americans are illiterate, religious-fanatic gunmen.

The funny thing is, that most religious people in the US, are protestant christians. Ergo, those that are strongly religious are going to be at least literate enough to read the bible (having someone read it to you is too much like what pre-lutheran europe was like), at least the parts they deem worthy. I think your pushing in two different groups of "extreme americans". There is (1) the religious-fanatic gunmen and (2) the illerate fanatic gunmen.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Not all Americans are illiterate, religious-fanatic gunmen.

The funny thing is, that most religious people in the US, are protestant christians. Ergo, those that are strongly religious are going to be at least literate enough to read the bible (having someone read it to you is too much like what pre-lutheran europe was like), at least the parts they deem worthy. I think you pushing in too different groups of "extreme americans". There is (1) the religious-fanatic gunmen and (2) the illerate fanatic gunmen.

bolded - my emphasis.

...and therein lies the issues involving schisms. ;)

4. I have visited the US when I was very young. The people I met were very warm and friendly and I had a great time - Only did the West coast would have liked to see the US that doesn't get shown on tv.

Bah, don't bother, you already saw all the best parts anyway.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Not all Americans are illiterate, religious-fanatic gunmen.

The funny thing is, that most religious people in the US, are protestant christians. Ergo, those that are strongly religious are going to be at least literate enough to read the bible (having someone read it to you is too much like what pre-lutheran europe was like), at least the parts they deem worthy. I think you pushing in too different groups of "extreme americans". There is (1) the religious-fanatic gunmen and (2) the illerate fanatic gunmen.

Ok Im confused by "protestant" do you mean Southern Baptist, Northern Baptist, Presbyterian, Evangelical, or Lutheran? I'm just asking because you know just curious if I'm supposed to be getting all indignant or should I call a couple friends and have them get all indignant.

Ok Im confused by "protestant" do you mean Southern Baptist, Northern Baptist, Presbyterian, Evangelical, or Lutheran?

Yes.

Ok Im confused by "protestant" do you mean Southern Baptist, Northern Baptist, Presbyterian, Evangelical, or Lutheran? I'm just asking because you know just curious if I'm supposed to be getting all indignant or should I call a couple friends and have them get all indignant.

Protestant basically means not Catholic or Orthodox (Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc.... also not Coptic, technically, but hardly anybody knows who the Copts even are). All the denominations you mentioned are Protestant, plus a bunch more.

olshriek wrote:

Ok Im confused by "protestant" do you mean Southern Baptist, Northern Baptist, Presbyterian, Evangelical, or Lutheran?

Yes.

Should of seen that coming.

olshriek wrote:

Ok Im confused by "protestant" do you mean Southern Baptist, Northern Baptist, Presbyterian, Evangelical, or Lutheran? I'm just asking because you know just curious if I'm supposed to be getting all indignant or should I call a couple friends and have them get all indignant.

Protestant basically means not Catholic or Orthodox (Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc.... also not Coptic, technically, but hardly anybody knows who the Copts even are). All the denominations you mentioned are Protestant, plus a bunch more.

Ok you got me curious who are the copts only Orthodox's I ever met were the couple Greek churches up by Chicago and a few folks here in town

Ergo, those that are strongly religious are going to be at least literate enough to read the bible.

That's true, but spelling out things like "scientifically illiterate" and "excessively provincial" ruined the poetic flow of my post. Also, oddly enough, I can quote Scripture better than most of my born-again friends; they are extremely adamant about the things they assume the Bible says, but not so much about what it actually says.

pres man wrote:

Ergo, those that are strongly religious are going to be at least literate enough to read the bible.

That's true, but spelling out things like "scientifically illiterate" and "excessively provincial" ruined the poetic flow of my post. Also, oddly enough, I can quote Scripture better than most of my born-again friends; they are extremely adamant about the things they assume the Bible says, but not so much about what it actually says.

So sad, but so true.

Ok you got me curious who are the copts only Orthodox's I ever met were the couple Greek churches up by Chicago and a few folks here in town

Copts are primarily of Egyptian origin.