I'll update later with the knowledge checks, I'm not ignoring them, I have to get some fluff together.
Like I said, let me know what I need to know, and don't feel you have to tell me everything. ;) Or hell, half of anything, only what's especially appropriate to the situation. Gotak is functionally also a paranoiac of sorts -- Skill God Perception of 76 + 1d6, and Skill God Sense Motive of 75 + 1d6, each with a situational +2 (Per from the familiar, Sense Motive from Snake Style).
I should probably also point out that Gotak does have the Dark Sun KS skills of Psionics and Warfare, and Psicraft as well, just for what it's worth.
Seb,
Unsure if you missed it, or forgot, or what, but Hamza made a huge diplomacy check over 100, long before Lady Arsione showed up and started slinging insults at the tareks.
I'm going to assume that the tarek's starting attitude towards us was no worse than unfriendly. Meaning my 100+ check absolutely improved their attitude towards us, as there's no way there Cha score is over 190...
Seb,
Unsure if you missed it, or forgot, or what, but Hamza made a huge diplomacy check over 100, long before Lady Arsione showed up and started slinging insults at the tareks.
I'm going to assume that the tarek's starting attitude towards us was no worse than unfriendly. Meaning my 100+ check absolutely improved their attitude towards us, as there's no way there Cha score is over 190...
They're not attacking you for that reason, they're parlaying -- well, it will depend on how you deal with the new situation. The Balicans are going to massacre them if you don't do anything.
They're not attacking you for that reason, they're parlaying -- well, it will depend on how you deal with the new situation. The Balicans are going to massacre them if you don't do anything.Seb,
Unsure if you missed it, or forgot, or what, but Hamza made a huge diplomacy check over 100, long before Lady Arsione showed up and started slinging insults at the tareks.
I'm going to assume that the tarek's starting attitude towards us was no worse than unfriendly. Meaning my 100+ check absolutely improved their attitude towards us, as there's no way there Cha score is over 190...
That's all well and good, but I requested something rather specific from them, and my result has probably made them helpful, if not fanatic. They should be tripping over themselves to please me.
Once again you have too much going on and the PCs are getting screwed because of it. Why is Lady Arsione showing up now? Just to start shit? Kinda rude. Makes me feel pretty useless....
I'll look at the rules again, I thought I had taken that into account.
Arsione is showing up because the caravan that the tarek's attacked was going to do business with her house -- they just told you that in fact, and that they were expecting the Balicans to show up at any moment.
House Nicephorus and their allies sent out Arsinoe at the head of an expedition to see what happened to the caravan with which they were intending to make an exchange. She's an important member of an organization that hopes to replace the sorcerer-kings as the rulers of the city-states.
It's a little bit irksome to have you complaining as if this as some kind of random development, I just explained the plot several times, and this was all hinted at in the first post of this second part of the campaign, and I've been dropping hints about this group for over a year. The group from Nibenay you encountered in the tunnels -- they were tracking members of House Nicephorus that were infiltrating their trade area. Raxus used to be Arsinoe's eidolon. House Nicephorus is allied with the 'serpent spiders' who are fighting with the Master of the Aerie and his Ymeri cult in the Diamond Mines, and are responsible for opening the Great Orrery.
I just don't want this game to become what we refer to as NPC Theater in LARP. Where super important NPCs show up in a scene and run roughshod over the PCs and render their actions moot and useless...
It's not unless you let it be -- you have a complicated choice right now whether you're going to go along with Cae and help the Balicans, try to arbitrate some kind of cessation of hostilities, or help the tareks against the Balicans. I don't have an opinion on which you pick -- and the choice will have major consequences.
The Citadel is the center of the House Nicephorus compound in the ruins of Kalidnay. It is an incredible, massive, cyclopean, four-towered structure which can only be entered through the mazeworks in the hill upon which it sits. It is surrounded by massive walls and broods on a hill overlooking the rest of the compound. It is very ancient, clearly older than maybe any other building in the ruins. It existed when the humans who displaced the dwarves who originally lived in the area around the Diamond Mines first arrived. It also predates the arrival of the dwarves. It's at least as old as the Blue Age, and might be as old as the Dawn Age, the distant time when there were still gods and before the northern seas swallowed the world.
THIS is my current sketch of the Citadel. You can see it has 1,000+ rooms.
General placement within the ruins of Kalidnay? Upper City, Plateau of Power somewhere, near the Diamond Minds or the Glass Gardens ... ?
It's under the heading 'Upper City' on the Plateau of Power. I haven't put in every location I've imagined, all my maps are works in progress.
Removing the Display bonus of +20 and the surge roll of 3 would imply 84, but ... though the Display of Charisma and surge are both supernatural, they're providing the circumstance bonus to him, not reaching out and manipulating the observer. I mean, I can see it both ways, but ... the magic is on him, not being cast at/into the antimagic field. :/
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.
It may be cast on him, but I don't see how it can have an effect on her, she's within the zone; I don't think you should be able to read someone's mind with psionic abilities, or cast charm on them if they're standing in a null zone.
I definitely don't think it should be subject to an anti-magic field, but allow me to ask in the FB group I'm in for the PFSRD and see what folks think?
I'm happy to seek other opinions, but I think it applies to other stuff too -- can you use a Charm Person on someone covered by an anti-magic field. Can you use an Illusion? Can you read their mind?
This is a 5e discussion, but they're coming to the same conclusion I am.
I'm happy to seek other opinions, but I think it applies to other stuff too -- can you use a Charm Person on someone covered by an anti-magic field. Can you use an Illusion? Can you read their mind?
No, but those all target the person in the field.
Hamza is under his Alter Self ability. Is she able to see his real form because she's in an anti-magic field, assuming he stays outside of it?
If he cast Mirror Image, would she only see the real him and not the images?
Anti magic field cancels any magic inside the field, no matter where the source is.
Su abilities are affected, but Ex are not. Pretty simple.
Since psionics is like magic, it should be affected as well.
At least we once had the premise that psionics equals magics.
The issue is that the effect is personal.. the Display affects Hamza, and Hamza is not in the field (if I understand that correctly).
He is then just making a Charisma check vs targets within the field, and charisma checks are not affected by anti-magic.
I'm happy to seek other opinions, but I think it applies to other stuff too -- can you use a Charm Person on someone covered by an anti-magic field. Can you use an Illusion? Can you read their mind?No, but those all target the person in the field.
Hamza is under his Alter Self ability. Is she able to see his real form because she's in an anti-magic field, assuming he stays outside of it?
If he cast Mirror Image, would she only see the real him and not the images?
I would argue based on that for Mirror Image that, indeed, it would not effect her.
What were the other opinions from your FB group?
The issue is that the effect is personal.. the Display affects Hamza, and Hamza is not in the field (if I understand that correctly).
He is then just making a Charisma check vs targets within the field, and charisma checks are not affected by anti-magic.
But he's using an su ability to boost the Cha check. It seems to me like that boost shouldn't apply within the field, just the base skill roll without any magic buffing.
What were the other opinions from your FB group?
As of two hours ago, there were 7 replies, and none of them agree with you(some of the replies):
"That wouldn't be my interpretation.
The magical affect happened outside the antimagic.
The diplomacy check isn't magic.
The DM can make the check super effing hard, and that's ok. Just not because of the antimagic."
"The PC isn't inside the field = the PC's spells and Su abilities aren't effected. That's like saying the field negates the Insight bonus from True Strike if you shoot an arrow into it. The magic is on *you*, not the thing (arrow/words) going in."
"Display of Charisma's target and effect are on the PC that is standing outside of the anti-magic field. Therefore the effect happens and your PC gets the +20 to Diplomacy. The magic is in making you be super diplomatic. The super diplomatic actions, in and of themselves, are not magical. It is not a mind-effecting power that makes enemies perceive your words as favorable, you simply just charisma better.
It'd be like arguing that anti-magic field would stop a character w/ Display of Intelligence from being able to pass a knowledge check on a creature inside the field. That's just dumb - I can still see it, I'm just a lot smarter for a little bit."
"The PC isn't inside the field = the PC's spells and Su abilities aren't effected. That's like saying the field negates the Insight bonus from True Strike if you shoot an arrow into it. The magic is on *you*, not the thing (arrow/words) going in."
You can't shoot a magic missile into the anti-magic field, so I'm actually not sure about that example either. I think it's questionable whether the bonus magical bonus applies once it gets into the anti magic field.
That's the same issue with the Diplomacy check -- the boost is magical. You can certainly use Diplomacy, but I'm not clear you should get any boost from an (su) ability applied within the field.
Magic missile is a spell effect. That's the only reason it winks out of existence. A completely normal, mundane, non magical arrow fired into an anti-magic field would be fine.
I'm not sure what else to tell you here my dude. Everyone disagrees with you. I don't know why you're refusing to listen to them.
Should I go and make a thread in the FAQ section of Paizo? Like, what more do you want? Maybe I can ask the Pathfinder freelancers I'm friends with to answer too? Would you listen to Owen Stephens, Jason Nelson, Alex Augunas or Clinton Boomer?
But the missile has a magical effect on it -- that's what I'm asking if it still applies.
I'm listening, I just get to ask questions too, especially since I am the one running the game. As I have, as far as I am aware, always done, I will rule with the majority and go with your interpretation.
I'm not sure you realize you're doing this, but I feel like yesterday you flipped out at me because you didn't expect an NPC to show up, and today you're flipping out at me again because of a ruling that I want to talk about before I accept your interpretation. I would appreciate if you'd try to be a little less confrontational about some of these issues -- I'm not a DM who randomly kills characters or arbitrarily ignores rules, and I don't think I deserve this.
Display of Charisma is a SU effect, yes.
But, all of it is happening outside the field. There's also no effect entering the field, only persons inside the field perceiving it.
Just imagine an illusion somewhere outside the field.
Persons inside the field would receive a saving throw when looking at it (perhaps!), but it would still work on them, because the magic itself does not enter the field.
But, that's just it. The missile doesn't have a magical effect on it.
Let's break this down:
1) Hamza casts the first level spell, Magic Missile, into an anti magic field. As soon as the bolt of force passes into the field, it winks out.
2) Hamza shoots a +1 flaming arrow at Lady Arisone. As soon as it enters the field, it loses it's magical properties and becomes a normal arrow, dealing normal damage.
3) Hamza casts the spells Divine Power and True Strike on himself, then shoots a normal, non magical arrow at Lady Arisone, from outside the AMF. The magic is not on the arrow, thus the magic never enters the AMF. The arrow hits with the +20 bonus from True Strike along with the bonuses to hit and damage from Divine Power.
Would you also rule that if Hamza had an extra attack from Haste/Divine Power/Speed and used a ranged weapon, that he wouldn't get that attack because of the AMF?
That's what's so frustrating about this and why I'm getting upset. We are arguing two completely different things. You keep bringing up magical effects that enter the AMF. Nobody is saying they wouldn't be affected. I am talking about an effect that is created outside the field, that never enters it.
As for the Lady Arisone, I got upset because you completely ignored my 105 diplomacy check. First the new PCs showed up, and then you had your super NPC show up. It felt like my agency was being taken away, because the tarkes should basically be Hamza's servants at this point. Not 'they aren't attacking.' They should be at his beck and call, willing to go get him a chilled drink, hold the door for him as he walks into their fortress, and lay down in a puddle for him so he doesn't get his boots wet.
I went along with the majority ruling, and I understand the point you're making, but I still don't think you understand the objection I'm raising, but I don't want to debate this anymore.
The tareks have no responded that they are allying with you, but the Balicans are only indifferent because they started as hostile, whereas the tareks started as indifferent.
Is Amunet-ra's response said in a mocking tone, or just a reflection of Cae's communication?
@Vrog, no hurry, but just out of curiosity, how is Rilkus' coming along? What did you end up doing with him?
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No mocking tone, but she certainly doesn't like the pact to be broken, especially not that fast.
Maybe she wants to be your mistress lol.
Ooh, jealousy... =) Well, at least you know he's loyal.
The pact isn't broken as Cae sees it, simply ended, as it was to last until we were no longer underground. Also, specifically for Cae, as part of his vow, his previous loyalty superseded the pact.
Really? I thought the pact was to save Athas from further destruction and to prevent all the aliens and others from using evil artifacts?
Aye, there was a WIDE range of things people were swearing.
Yeah maybe we should repost that somewhere or put it on the campaign tab.
I find the situation a bit confusing at the moment. It seems to go towards pvp rather fast, with 2 new players of unclear affection and Cae's loyalty at test.
Thought we had agreed not to do pvp here?
I don't have a problem with it as long as there's not real world animosity behind it. With the current set up, it also won't be lethal, just a fight until one is disarmed or otherwise incapacitated.
I honestly thought with my opening posts that new characters were going to tie their stories into the existing narrative a bit more -- like be additional members of the original House Vordon expedition from Tyr that joined the group after they returned from the kreen tombs, but everyone went with a different direction and made them strangers, so I'm rolling with that.
Well we weren't introduced at all yet and at least Amunet-Ra wouldn't know of more house Vordon members.
Yeah, they began as strangers, and the introduction didn't make their joining us obvious (one is floating around asking for people to fight).
No harm, no foul, we'll just work with what we have right now.
Well, I figured that displaying a desire to crack the heads of defilers, and a willingness to be even-handed and see some peace break out, would be a good way to start. Gotak is more than willing to join up with people who are, as it were, preserver- and druid- and life-friendly; I'm hoping I'm showing that. :)
Seems odd if the tareks just trust some stranger to fight for their cause though.
they'd prefer that to potentially getting hurt themselves.
And with luck, serving the Lady for a week or a month isn't going to really matter one way or the other -- not if she's good people. ;)
Aye, if your familiar isn't obviously joining you, Cae has no reason to affect it. Also, the only things Vyse has done are turn invisible and sing.
btw, I haven't forgotten you Sebecloki. I am going to do my best to finish your character this weekend and get it posted.
'
No hurry, just kind of curious how he's coming and very curious what you ended up doing with him, build wise.
Okay -- I'd like to get my Mongol campaign started again; here's my proposal for those who don't already have characters: how would any of you feel about doing a 'cross-over' campaign -- I'll fill in the back story as to how the characters from this setting got into ancient Mongolia.
My idea is something like the Lankhmar story where grey mouser and fafhrd fall asleep in a cave and wake up in Alexander the Great's empire.
Slavathras will appear under the guise of an Abyssinian merchant as another point of connection.
I would be ok with that, but first let's pursue this campaign here for some more time.
We have 2 newcomers and it could use some more stability and focus before the attention goes somewhere else again.
Just to clarify -- I wouldn't mean we would stop this one or stall it.
It would be a separate timeline/story thread that would run concurrently.
Okay -- I'd like to get my Mongol campaign started again; here's my proposal for those who don't already have characters: how would any of you feel about doing a 'cross-over' campaign -- I'll fill in the back story as to how the characters from this setting got into ancient Mongolia.
My idea is something like the Lankhmar story where grey mouser and fafhrd fall asleep in a cave and wake up in Alexander the Great's empire.
Slavathras will appear under the guise of an Abyssinian merchant as another point of connection.
Hamza is wholly incompatible with the Mongol game, as both of his main classes are from Path of War, and one of his classes from Gestalt uses Akashic.
That said, I do want to make a PC for that game(and Numenera), I just need to focus on some PCs for other games first and foremost.