Young / giant template for wild shape

Ok so after searching a million times, I have come to the conclusion that shamans and druids in general for that matter, are ok to use the young and giant templates to create different sized animals for wild shape as long as the DM is ok with the idea. As that is just for regular home games, figured I would post here to see if a ruling for pfs can be achieved as there is no official ruling on it yet.

Can druids waive the no template restriction from polymorph rules so as to wild shape into a young or giant version of an animal? This would only be an exception to the rules for wildshape only, and would only allow young and giant templates. Other relevant restrictions such as those in beast shape 1-3 would still have to be obeyed. Meaning no gargantuan wild shapes etc.

As one of the class features for the eagle shaman is impossible due to current rules, this official ruling would allow them access to the class feature they were printed with. Specifically the ability to wild shape into a roc.

wild shape is hard enough to adjudicate at a table as it is. Applying templates would just throw more complexity into the mix. I'd have to worry about changing dex and str on critters, I just see it too prone to player error for something that can be achieved other ways. (turn into something else)

On the other end of the spectrum, I do see it open to abuse as well. For example, my snake shaman (specialized in grapple) could turn into a giant constrictor snake and be able to grapple creatures much larger than herself.

"As long as the GM is ok with it" usually means a no in PFS.

wild shape is hard enough to adjudicate at a table as it is. Applying templates would just throw more complexity into the mix. I'd have to worry about changing dex and str on critters, I just see it too prone to player error for something that can be achieved other ways. (turn into something else)

On the other end of the spectrum, I do see it open to abuse as well. For example, my snake shaman (specialized in grapple) could turn into a giant constrictor snake and be able to grapple creatures much larger than herself.

"As long as the GM is ok with it" usually means a no in PFS.

How is wildshape hard to adjudicate? Its incredibly simple if you look at it. Wana turn into a wolf? Ok your a wolf, you get the wolfs landspeed, natural attacks, size, and any special abilities so long as they are on the list the polymorph effect lists. Scent as an example. You use your own stats and mod them based on the size of the creature used and the polymorph effect used.

All the templates would do would be let you mod the size of the animal and anything based on size like natural weapon damage. The stat mods from the templates are completely ignored in this situation because beastshape has its own mods based on size.

There is a severe lack of animals to shape shift into. This would just open up more options while remaining within the other limits of wild shape. As said before the eagle shaman cannot even wildshape into what could be called their capstone animal form, the roc, because of this silly limitation. I am pretty sure the "no templates" thing under polymorph was a 3.5 carry-over used to prevent crazy template stacking in 3.5 with regards to polymorph. This simply isnt needed anymore due to the limitations put in place by paizo in the various polymorphing spells. It just simply isnt needed anymore.

In my opinion, you shouldn't need to apply templates to get different size. You wildshape into Huge animals and wanna turn into a wolf? Use the beast shape that let's you turn in a huge animal.

In my opinion, you shouldn't need to apply templates to get different size. You wildshape into Huge animals and wanna turn into a wolf? Use the beast shape that let's you turn in a huge animal.

Essentially thats what the templates do. Your method is just tge simplified version. Which i totally agree with.

There's no reason to FAQ it, the core rules specifically ban the use of templates with Wild Shape (you just have to look for it.)

Wild shape is based off of the Beast Shape spells. Beast Shape is a Transmutation (Polymorph) school/subschool spell. In the Magic chapter where they discuss what the schools/subschools mean and can do we find:

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used

to change into specific individuals. Although many of the
fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always
that of a generic member of that creature’s type. Polymorph
spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a
template or an advanced version of a creature.

So no, Druids/Shamans cannot wild shape into a young, giant, or any other template unless they have an ability that specifically says that it allows them to.

Its a little more complicated than all that.

You don't just turn into a wolf. You turn into something that looks like a wolf, with some of the wolf's abilities (dependent on what level of Beast Shape is being used, which is dependent on the level of the Druid.) The Beast Shape spells detail exactly what the Druid gets. You get ability bonuses and penalties to Strength and Dex, you get a natural armor bonus, and you have to modify your AC and to Hit for size if you change sizes.

Start adding a template, and you then also have to add and/or subtract the template changes. Especially Giant template, which requires you to make another size change.

I think its a bad idea to allow for templates in PFS.

Eagle Shaman is the only archetype with this problem. All the other shaman archetypes don't specifically list an animal that is too big to be wild-shaped into.

There's no reason to FAQ it, the core rules specifically ban the use of templates with Wild Shape (you just have to look for it.)

Wild shape is based off of the Beast Shape spells. Beast Shape is a Transmutation (Polymorph) school/subschool spell. In the Magic chapter where they discuss what the schools/subschools mean and can do we find:

CRB wrote:

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used

to change into specific individuals. Although many of the
fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always
that of a generic member of that creature’s type. Polymorph
spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a
template or an advanced version of a creature.

So no, Druids/Shamans cannot wild shape into a young, giant, or any other template unless they have an ability that specifically says that it allows them to.

Eric, that is the point of the faq. That limitation that you just listed specifically prevents the use of templates yes, but that being said it is an out dated rule and is no longer needed. If not for the sheer lack of possible animals(aside from dinos) you can shapeshift into, it needs to be removed or an exception made so at least the eagle shaman and to a lesser extent the other shamans and even a generic druid can use the animal they like or are themed after as their main shapeshift and not have it useless. I mean that limitation you listed specifically prevents the eagle shaman from assuming roc form which is a class ability. They werent granted the ability to shapeshift into a gargantuan animal as there are no beast shape stats for that. Thus the only way to shapeshift into a roc as per their class feature is to bump the size down, which according to said polymorph "rule" is not legal.

There are feats (Planar Wildshape for one) that allow access to specific templates.

Eagle Shaman is the only archetype with this problem. All the other shaman archetypes don't specifically list an animal that is too big to be wild-shaped into.

Essentially the templates are just used to recalculate size and its related effects. All other stats are moot. Dont need to worry about the other stats as beast shape etc replace tgem anyway. You could have a huge wolf with 30 strength with any number of templates etc, but you still only get the mid from beast shape added to yours.

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

Eagle Shaman is the only archetype with this problem. All the other shaman archetypes don't specifically list an animal that is too big to be wild-shaped into.

Essentially the templates are just used to recalculate size and its related effects. All other stats are moot. Dont need to worry about the other stats as beast shape etc replace tgem anyway. You could have a huge wolf with 30 strength with any number of templates etc, but you still only get the mid from beast shape added to yours.

Autocorrect is slaying me sorry. On my phone at work lol. Should say "mod" not mid.

Adding a template would not change the form a Druid is shifting into.

It's like a Druid shifting into a huge dire tiger wi Beast Shape III. A huge dire tiger doesn't exist as a monster on its own (yet, that's not to say paizo will never publish a huge feline, or that they never intend to since a huge feline can already be statted out by adding Giant to Dire Tiger), but beast shape allows you to take the form of a huge animal. The spell determines your size bonuses to Str/dex/natural armor etc. and doesn't restrict you to creatures only chosen from one bestiary or another. As long as you're familiar with a Large dire tiger, you should be allowed to turn into a huge one.

If you're a shaman, and even more restricted by the breeds of animals you can shift into, you should just be restricted by the size of creature you turn into based on the Beast Shape spells.

Shamans are allowed to apply the young, and giant templates to creatures they summon with Summon Nature's Ally. THEN the templates matter.

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

Eagle Shaman is the only archetype with this problem. All the other shaman archetypes don't specifically list an animal that is too big to be wild-shaped into.

Essentially the templates are just used to recalculate size and its related effects. All other stats are moot. Dont need to worry about the other stats as beast shape etc replace tgem anyway. You could have a huge wolf with 30 strength with any number of templates etc, but you still only get the mid from beast shape added to yours.

The point is that the eagle shaman description specifically references wild-shaping into a roc, except the roc is gargantuan and you can't wild-shape into gargantuan creatures. So it's up to the GM to interpret that and decide whether to allow eagle shamans to wild-shape into a Young Roc.

Calling it a Young Roc breaks the polymorph restriction on templates. But Wild Shaping into a Huge Roc , a Medium or Large Roc is perfectly legal.

Just look at Medium Rocs Druids can select as animal companions. They're not Extremely Young Rocs, they're just medium Rocs until 4th level or 7th, whenever they turn large.

Ok so after searching a million times, I have come to the conclusion that shamans and druids in general for that matter, are ok to use the young and giant templates to create different sized animals for wild shape as long as the DM is ok with the idea.

PRD link please.

Adding a template would not change the form a Druid is shifting into.

It's like a Druid shifting into a huge dire tiger wi Beast Shape III. A huge dire tiger doesn't exist as a monster on its own (yet, that's not to say paizo will never publish a huge feline, or that they never intend to since a huge feline can already be statted out by adding Giant to Dire Tiger), but beast shape allows you to take the form of a huge animal. The spell determines your size bonuses to Str/dex/natural armor etc. and doesn't restrict you to creatures only chosen from one bestiary or another. As long as you're familiar with a Large dire tiger, you should be allowed to turn into a huge one.

If you're a shaman, and even more restricted by the breeds of animals you can shift into, you should just be restricted by the size of creature you turn into based on the Beast Shape spells.

Shamans are allowed to apply the young, and giant templates to creatures they summon with Summon Nature's Ally. THEN the templates matter.

I like your interpretation of the beast shape spell. If that is how it works by RaW then there would be no need for this entire thread. Is your interpretation the way paizo sees the spell working as? If so then id be happy as a clam and i could play pfs and not havr to worry bout the templates. :-)

Celestial_Chameleon wrote:

Ok so after searching a million times, I have come to the conclusion that shamans and druids in general for that matter, are ok to use the young and giant templates to create different sized animals for wild shape as long as the DM is ok with the idea.

PRD link please.

its a house rule that the guy who wrote the druid section that deals with the shaman archetypes posed. It fixes the eagle shaman issue as well as lets the standard druid have more flavor/thematic choices to shapeshift into. This thread was to see if that "house rule" could be made baseline for pfs as I dont think many players will like having some dms say yes and others no. Its a quality of life change that opens up avenues for more customization and RP potential.

I like your interpretation of the beast shape spell. If that is how it works by RaW then there would be no need for this entire thread. Is your interpretation the way paizo sees the spell working as? If so then id be happy as a clam and i could play pfs and not havr to worry bout the templates. :-)

I can quote you RAW where it says you can't combine templates and polymorph effects. Can you show me RAW in beast shape where it says the animal chosen needs to exist in the Bestiary?

Celestial_Chameleon wrote:

I like your interpretation of the beast shape spell. If that is how it works by RaW then there would be no need for this entire thread. Is your interpretation the way paizo sees the spell working as? If so then id be happy as a clam and i could play pfs and not havr to worry bout the templates. :-)

I can quote you RAW where it says you can't combine templates and polymorph effects. Can you show me RAW in beast shape where it says the animal chosen needs to exist in the Bestiary?

You sir get +5 internets. :-)

Eric, that is the point of the faq. That limitation that you just listed specifically prevents the use of templates yes, but that being said it is an out dated rule and is no longer needed. If not for the sheer lack of possible animals(aside from dinos) you can shapeshift into, it needs to be removed or an exception made so at least the eagle shaman and to a lesser extent the other shamans and even a generic druid can use the animal they like or are themed after as their main shapeshift and not have it useless. I mean that limitation you listed specifically prevents the eagle shaman from assuming roc form which is a class ability. They werent granted the ability to shapeshift into a gargantuan animal as there are no beast shape stats for that. Thus the only way to shapeshift into a roc as per their class feature is to bump the size down, which according to said polymorph "rule" is not legal.

The point of a FAQ is to ask questions about how something works. What you're doing is trying to get the devs to change how something works.

If you happen to, for whatever reason, have the Young or Giant template... then your wild-shape will also have that same template. But how is an adult druid going to turn into a young wolf?

Its a little more complicated than all that.

You don't just turn into a wolf. You turn into something that looks like a wolf, with some of the wolf's abilities (dependent on what level of Beast Shape is being used, which is dependent on the level of the Druid.) The Beast Shape spells detail exactly what the Druid gets. You get ability bonuses and penalties to Strength and Dex, you get a natural armor bonus, and you have to modify your AC and to Hit for size if you change sizes.

Start adding a template, and you then also have to add and/or subtract the template changes. Especially Giant template, which requires you to make another size change.

I think its a bad idea to allow for templates in PFS.

Huge animal: If the form you take is that of a Huge animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a -4 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

and apply the listed stats to a Wolf.

I don't think ANYONE will disagree that you can use wildshape to turn into a Medium Wolf, and a Large Wolf. If you look at the differences between a Wolf, and a Dire Wolf (Large Wolf), you will find that the STR, DEX, Armor, etc do not match the bonuses gained by Beast Shape II.

Using Beast Shape II to become a Large Wolf, gives you +4 STR
Dire Wolf is +6 STR compared to a Medium Wolf
"Giant" template added to a Medium Wolf (to make it Large) would give +4 to STR

Using Beast Shape II to become a Large Wolf, gives you a +0 CON
Dire Wolf is +2 CON compared to a Medium Wolf
"Giant" template added to a Medium Wolf (to make it Large) would give +4 to CON

Using Beast Shape II to become a Large Wolf, gives you a -2 to DEX
Dire Wolf is +0 DEX compared to a Medium Wolf
"Giant" template added to a Medium Wolf (to make it Large) would give -2 to DEX

Using Beast Shape II to become a Large Wolf, gives you a +4 to Natural Armor
Dire Wolf is +1 Natural Armor compared to a Medium Wolf
"Giant" template added to a Medium Wolf (to make it Large) would give +3 Natural Armor

So, following the rules of Wildshape to turn into a "Dire Wolf" doesn't use the Dire Wolf stats and doesn't use the Giant Template. It simply uses the stats spelled out in the Beast Shape II spell. If you were to expand this out to a "Huge Wolf" vs a Dire Wolf with the "Giant" template you would find just as many discrepancies, but again, it wouldn't matter because you are just using the stats provided by the Beast Shape spells, not the stats of the creatures whether they have templates or not.

Celestial_Chameleon wrote:

Eric, that is the point of the faq. That limitation that you just listed specifically prevents the use of templates yes, but that being said it is an out dated rule and is no longer needed. If not for the sheer lack of possible animals(aside from dinos) you can shapeshift into, it needs to be removed or an exception made so at least the eagle shaman and to a lesser extent the other shamans and even a generic druid can use the animal they like or are themed after as their main shapeshift and not have it useless. I mean that limitation you listed specifically prevents the eagle shaman from assuming roc form which is a class ability. They werent granted the ability to shapeshift into a gargantuan animal as there are no beast shape stats for that. Thus the only way to shapeshift into a roc as per their class feature is to bump the size down, which according to said polymorph "rule" is not legal.

The point of a FAQ is to ask questions about how something works. What you're doing is trying to get the devs to change how something works.

Faq is also for fixing broken things. But if serephimpunk's interpretation is how beast shape works then nothing was broken to begin with. Asking a dev to change something if it is broken is not a bad thing. Fixing something is never bad. I am trying to get something fixed so it works properly. But again if serephimpunks interpretation of BS is how it works by raw then this thread is moot and i can just end it.

If you happen to, for whatever reason, have the Young or Giant template... then your wild-shape will also have that same template. But how is an adult druid going to turn into a young wolf?

I'm not sure that's how it works, i'm pretty sure since your base size doesn't affect wild shape neither should a template that modifies it.

The flurry of obsession with templates and polymorph like they actually matter though, sounds like rules confusion, that I just want to shake out of everyone's heads. You cannot Shape into something with a template.

And there is one flaw with Shape spells like beast shape, in that they don't explicitly state you can say: turn into a wolf of any size and just use the base form to determine attack routines. It doesn't limit you to bestiaries. Though the additional resources page does call out animals from the bestiaries as legal for Wild Shape in PFS. It still never says in the Shape spells that you're limited to the bestiary. It's just an assumption everyone has to make in order to keep playing the game.

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

Its a little more complicated than all that.

You don't just turn into a wolf. You turn into something that looks like a wolf, with some of the wolf's abilities (dependent on what level of Beast Shape is being used, which is dependent on the level of the Druid.) The Beast Shape spells detail exactly what the Druid gets. You get ability bonuses and penalties to Strength and Dex, you get a natural armor bonus, and you have to modify your AC and to Hit for size if you change sizes.

Start adding a template, and you then also have to add and/or subtract the template changes. Especially Giant template, which requires you to make another size change.

I think its a bad idea to allow for templates in PFS.

I think the point Azten was trying to make is that technically you don't need a template to just do what the spell says for different animals of different sizes (all the bonuses are outlined in the Beast Shape spells). If a GM was making an encounter with a "Huge wolf" he would take the stats for a Dire Wolf, and add the Giant Template to it. A Druid wanting to Wildshape into a "Huge wolf" however, would just look at the line in Beast Shape III

Quote:

Huge animal: If the form you take is that of a Huge animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a -4 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

and apply the listed stats to a Wolf.

I don't think ANYONE will disagree that you can use wildshape to turn into a Medium Wolf, and a Large Wolf. If you look at the differences between a Wolf, and a Dire Wolf (Large Wolf), you will find that the STR, DEX, Armor, etc do not match the bonuses gained by Beast Shape II.

Using Beast Shape II to become a Large Wolf, gives you +4 STR
Dire Wolf is +6 STR compared to a Medium Wolf
"Giant" template added to a Medium Wolf (to make it Large) would give +4 to STR

Using Beast Shape II to become a Large Wolf, gives you a +0 CON
Dire Wolf is +2 CON compared to a Medium Wolf
"Giant"...

So assuming i am familiar with a wolf and i have beast shape 3, i can turn into a huge wolf, using the huge size mods from BS 3 for stats and i would also deal bite damage as a huge wolf etc? No templates needed? I ask because there is no "huge" wolves but im getting from you guys that i can be a huge creature soley due to BS 3 stating i can be a huge animal etc.

Right. No templating. Templates don't work with wild shape. You'd just deal a huge bite.
Medium 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
And you'd only get the adjustments listed in BSIII

Kazaan wrote:

If you happen to, for whatever reason, have the Young or Giant template... then your wild-shape will also have that same template. But how is an adult druid going to turn into a young wolf?

I'm not sure that's how it works, i'm pretty sure since your base size doesn't affect wild shape neither should a template that modifies it.

That makes no sense. If I'm a Human, I'm medium. I wild-shape into a Huge animal. I'm now Huge. If I'm a Young Human, Young reduces my size by 1 step and I'm now small. I wild-shape into a Huge animal and Young changes its size down 1 step to Large. It isn't my base size that affects the wild-shape. It's the template that's applied to me and carried over to the wild-shape.

Right. No templating. Templates don't work with wild shape. You'd just deal a huge bite.

Medium 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
And you'd only get the adjustments listed in BSIII

Thanks man. Cleared up everything. :-) all this mess because i didnt understand quite how BS worked lol.

Calling it a Young Roc breaks the polymorph restriction on templates. But Wild Shaping into a Huge Roc , a Medium or Large Roc is perfectly legal.

Just look at Medium Rocs Druids can select as animal companions. They're not Extremely Young Rocs, they're just medium Rocs until 4th level or 7th, whenever they turn large.

Except there are no Huge Rocs, Medium Rocs, or Large Rocs. Beast Shape is based on bestiary entries, not animal companions.

Templates should be permissible for independent creatures that are defined in terms of templats. These are not young or giant or advanced, they're just described that way to save space. I believe some of the larger raptors and smaller bears are defined this way, but cannot currently access the PFSRD site to confirm.

There's also some gray areas with some monsters X, that say "you can make this other monster Y by adding template Z to X. For example, the Deinonychus in Bestiary I has a note saying that you can make a Velociraptor by adding the Young template. (There happens to be a velociraptor in Bestiary II.)

So is the "no template" rule also in force for monsters implied in the bestiary as existing, but not printed, because it saves space, and you can just make them using templates?

Other examples include the range of possible sizes for spiders, snakes and scorpions, which even have names for critters of all those sizes.

Can you wildshape into anything with a name for that specific size-instantiation, and explicit note how to construct a critter of that kind and which templates to apply? I mean, that's mere inches away from a proper bestiary entry.

That makes no sense. If I'm a Human, I'm medium. I wild-shape into a Huge animal. I'm now Huge. If I'm a Young Human, Young reduces my size by 1 step and I'm now small. I wild-shape into a Huge animal and Young changes its size down 1 step to Large. It isn't my base size that affects the wild-shape. It's the template that's applied to me and carried over to the wild-shape.

your template has no bearing on a polymorph spell effect like Beast Shape.

a small halfling druid can turn into a huge beastie, the same way a medium human can.

if a young human had enough druid levels to gain wild shape, they wouldn't turn into something a size category smaller. they would turn into whatever their wild shape allowed them to.

the only way it would matter is if you started out smaller than small or larger than large. then you'd follow the rules for those size creatures in adjusting your size first.

Seraphimpunk wrote:

Calling it a Young Roc breaks the polymorph restriction on templates. But Wild Shaping into a Huge Roc , a Medium or Large Roc is perfectly legal.

Just look at Medium Rocs Druids can select as animal companions. They're not Extremely Young Rocs, they're just medium Rocs until 4th level or 7th, whenever they turn large.

Except there are no Huge Rocs, Medium Rocs, or Large Rocs. Beast Shape is based on bestiary entries, not animal companions.

proof is in the pudding Firefly. show me where it says that the form you take has to be referenced from a bestiary.

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type.

you get to pick and choose the form and size. as long as there's an animal for you to base it on, you can be a small, medium, eventually even tiny, huge or more varied size version of the creature.

You have to have a piece of the animal you are going to turn into. (Its in the Material components).

While the game assumes you have all of them that list no cost, it also assumes that the material component *exists* for you to have it.

In order for you to have the material component of a given creature that creature must exist. Therefore there need to be (small, medium, large, huge, etc) versions of whatever it is you are wanting to cast in the game world.

The book that tells us what exists in the game world is the Bestiary- and its follow up books. If you can't find it in those books then its not in the game world. (unless your DM adds it, which is a house rule and beyond the scope of a Rules question or FAQ).

Furthermore:
Without going to the bestiary you aren't turning into anything. Without it you don't know what type to start with or what abilities you do or don't get from the Wildshape. To say that the creature you want to turn into doesn't have to be in the Bestiary is just ignoring the fact that you have to use the Bestiary to find the underlying creature.

You Have to go to a Bestiary to find the creature to turn into. And now you are trying to say that you can expand on the bestiary (by adding to whats listed) in order to get what you want.
It, sadly, doesn't work that way.

Until you find a listing for a given creature you can't use it. You can't just make up creatures that you want to turn into and turn into them.

And thats a problem. Why?
Because some of the animals in the Bestiary don't just adjust size and call it done. Some get new abilities.
Take the Shark (large) vs Shark (dire). The Dire gets new stuff,not just bigger. (grab and swallow whole).

The Gar is another good one. Size bump gives it a brand new ability as well. (swallow whole). Whale (gargantuan) to Whale (colossal) also gets new abilities tacked on.

What you are wanting to do, and trying to do, is to say that the Wildshape rules let you say "i want to be a large furry animal sort of like a wolf" and then go to Wolf make it Large and apply the stats.
Or "i want to be a leopard but Large" and then go apply the stats.
The problem is that the rules don't allow for that. Large Animal means go find an animal that is large. Not take any creature of the Animal type and make it Large to boost your stats.

If you want to be a large X, find a large X. If you want to be a small X. Find the small X. You don't get to find a small X and then make it Large just because you want a bigger form with whatever ability it is you are trying to snag.

If it allowed it then the language would say "find any creature of the animal type. You can adjust its size to Small or medium using the following rules" and then the later Beast Shapes would tell you that you could adjust its size and abilities further. It doesn't say that.

It says any X or Y size of the animal type.
Find size, Find type. Apply modifiers. Check. You don't get to find size, find type, alter size to preference.

-S

It appears that if you increase an animal's size, sometimes it gets new abilities. Sure. But what you just took an animal of size N, advanced it to size N+1 according to Wild Shape/Beast Shape, and didn't give it any additional abilities? Just adjusting natural weapons based on size (since we have a table for that) and abilities based on spell/class feature? Would that really be bad?

Eric Clingenpeel quoted the relevant text. Everything is there:

You have to have a piece of the animal you are going to turn into. (Its in the Material components).

druids don't. they do so as a supernatural ability. sorcerers don't. they eschew material components.

the Bestiary isn't the be-all-end-all of what exists in the world. its just what exists that the game developers have told us about. likewise for printing constraints and publishing constraints they're never going to publish every size animal, of every type of animal. they've left construction rules and templates for GMs to build animals to fit their world. And they publish odd animals that do different things at different sizes where its important to their needs as a company.

they've given druids a method to fill that gap of material when they want to choose something like a Roc to turn into, that doesn't have stats at the given size, with the Beast Shape spell/wild shape ability.

Just because it isn't statted in the Bestiary doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And the spell and class ability do not limit you to having to choose from the Bestiary or any other book.

so next time your player wants to turn into a Tiny Wolf or a Tea Cup elephant, just because its not in the encyclopedia, but it exists in ripley's believe it or not or national geographic, don't point to the bestiary and say its not in here, so you can't do it. because nothing in the rules says it has to exist in the bestiary. its a spell. its magic. its already got defined parameters. quit imposing your own additional parameters on it, unless its a home game house rule.

Eric Clingenpeel quoted the relevant text. Everything is there:

no templates

no advanced versions of a creature.

Bolded mine. The creature has to exist in the first place; where do I check that? I have a look into Bestiary I-III.
There does not exist a huge wolf as an animal in any of the Bestiaries. The only way of getting a huge wolf is to advance a Dire Wolf by following the step-by-step instruction found here or to

PRD wrote:

When advancing a monster by adding racial HD, you should start by deciding what you want the monster to become. In most cases, this means merely a tougher, stronger version of an existing monster. Note the desired CR of the new monster. This is also the point at which you should decide whether the creature is going to increase in size. As a general rule, creatures whose Hit Dice increase by 50% or more should also increase in size, but GMs should feel free to ignore this rule if warranted by the individual creature or situation.

Emphasis mine.

This is how by advancing a monster you can increase its size. This is also what is explicitly negated for wildshaping by the rules Eric Clingenpeel quoted.

How's that rule outdated and no longer needed?
The new wild shape rules were written as such to keep the shape changing happening simple (every change is explicitly stated; if it's not on the list, you do not get is as a PC using a polymorphing effect) and to specifically avoid the bloat and power creep which took place in 3.5 with every new monster published in an upcoming Bestiary and which added to the mythos of CoDzilla (same goes for why the summoned monsters available via [i]summon XYZ[i] spells are not modified with new Bestiaries).

Ruyan.

It is not needed anymore because the way that the polymorph spells are written, you cant creep your power up. Each spell/effect has specific parameters. 3.5 didnt have that, so you could template the heck out of something to get all of the whacky abilities. With the current state of polymorph spells, you just simply cant do that, even if the no template clause were removed. Even if you could grossly template the hell out of an animal, in the end its up to the player to not be a dick, and up to the DM to fiat rediclous things.

your template has no bearing on a polymorph spell effect like Beast Shape.

the spell explicitly states the sizes of creatures you can turn into. just like you lose natural attacks and properties of your base form.

a small halfling druid can turn into a huge beastie, the same way a medium human can.

if a young human had enough druid levels to gain wild shape, they wouldn't turn into something a size category smaller. they would turn into whatever their wild shape allowed them to.

the only way it would matter is if you started out smaller than small or larger than large. then you'd follow the rules for those size creatures in adjusting your size first.

If you have a Druid with the Advance? template and he turns into an animal, does he lose the stat boosts from Advanced? You can't turn into an animal and take a new template along with it, but if you have a pre-existing template, it doesn't "go away" when you transform. Both a Small Halfling Druid and a Medium Human Druid can turn into the same Huge animal. But if they both have the Young template, then it's a Tiny Halfling Druid and a Small Human Druid turning into a Large animal because it's the template that takes your base size and reduces it by one step. Or they could both turn into a Tiny animal and Young would reduce it to Diminutive.

the young template and the advanced template, if they were on the druid. would modify his ability scores, and his statistics in his base form.

if he cast Alter Self to turn into a Medium creature with darkvision like an orc, he wouldn't turn into a Small Orc. THAT is the ridiculous assumption.

I'm telling you, with a polymorph effect, the template does not get re-applied to the creature you're turning into. it only effects your base form. so your base form's size, strength and dex vary with the young template. the creature you polymorph into doesn't, unless the template has a rules exception that says otherwise.

with an advanced template, you'd have stronger base statistics, but you would not re-apply that template to the creature you're turning into, effectively doubling the template.

You never apply templates to the polymorphed form. you're just casting a spell. and the rules for it specifically state you can't turn into a creature with a template.

Young Template: You're one size smaller than the usual base form.
Wildshape: You get a new form.

I could probably explain that a bit better, but I see no reason why the Young template would change the size you get when you use wildshape.

I'm with Seraphimpunk here. If only for the fact that it makes Shamans not suck huge donkey balls. And it's completely fair. It's magic that can turn a guy into a fish. Why can't he alter the size within the limits of his power?

So, basically, what you're saying is that if you have a pre-existing template, and use a polymorph effect that changes your form, you outright lose the pre-existing template. Where, pray tell, does it specify that? Wild Shape can't turn you into a creature with a template, but that says nothing about maintaining a template you already have.

So, basically, what you're saying is that if you have a pre-existing template, and use a polymorph effect that changes your form, you outright lose the pre-existing template. Where, pray tell, does it specify that? Wild Shape can't turn you into a creature with a template, but that says nothing about maintaining a template you already have.

No, of course you don't lose the template. The effects of the various polymorph spells are applied on top of your existing stats.

A druid with the Young template can turn into a normal wolf, receiving the benefits of both the pre-existing young template, and the new benefits gained from turning into a wolf. But a druid can not turn into a young wolf (a wolf with the young template).

My take on this is as following:

Wanna wildshape into a Huge-sized Dire Tiger?

Step 1: create a Huge tiger, based on the Dire Tiger in the Beastiary. Up its size, attacks etc.
Step 2: What will its classification be? Since a Tiger of this size hardly would be concidered natural, I'd say it won't be classified simply as a Huge Animal, but rather a Huge Magical Beast or something along those lines.
Step 3: Are you able to wildshape into this new creature? No, because I can't wildshape into Huge Magical Beasts.

This is my train of thought as to why this won't work.