That's a chance I'm willing to take.
Same here.
I guess we know who the Paragons are in the group. XD
I think I might murder you in your sleep.
Honestly being Neutral Good I can't see Alexander doing it any other way. Since he is ambivalent about the inherent rightness of laws. He would default to what he would feel is moral and right. Executing a helpless sentient without a trial or at least some chance at redemption doesn't seem like a good thing. Though in the future we may need to set up some kind of court or the like.
Being NG, Tass would be inclined to do so as well.
I think there will always be an in game issue when there are conflicting alignment systems.
We have three NGs (Alex, Tass and Ro), 1 Neutral (Sheoll) and then there's Cadell with his CN. I honestly believe Cadell will be find himself consistently apart from the rest of the party when it comes to group decisions (based on his characterisation and alignment), which isn't surprising based on how alignment works (and is interpreted by a player). We, as a group, have to find a way to make it work as best as possible (not a big fan of continual in-party conflict).
Rowena is on the same page as Alex and Tass on the matter of what is to be done (and how to handle the situation) with the remaining bandits.
I don't mind a little tension between party members as long as it doesn't go to far. To far being not willing to help each other during crisis situations or actively harming each other that kind of thing. Though constantly being in a state of argument can get old fast. I think of it like a pinch of Cinnamon, put just enough in to spice things up :)
Little tension is fine (and realistic). But regular arguments with the same person/people ... yes it will get old fast and it doesn't help the game/story move forward either. I've seen games die with continual in-party conflict.
I honestly like where the story is going so far, but I really don't want to get hung up over the fate of the bandits--that's what I'm worried the most about right now.
Agreed, Tass.
That being said, what should we do if Hans ultimately refuses? Tass wouldn't be willing to kill him--she's never had to kill anyone in her life to get what she wants, and she'd see little reason to start now.
If we have to kill one of them (if Oleg takes one and we take one?) then Ro would vote for bandit 2 who tried to act all nicey nicey ... (she found the other two (Hans and Kir) more honest in their reactions to their predicament)...
But if we need to kill the bandits that aren't redeemable, Ro would give them a weapon (say dagger) and have them fight to the death (whether they fight each other or against us).
Just a suggestion.
But if Cadell is happy with hanging them, then we could always allow him to be the hangman ... I can't see Rowena killing an unarmed person/prisoner.
I'm tempted to have Sheoll offer them a simple choice and if they chose wrong, just kill them, but i'm not sure how that will play.
I'm thinking of it from his eyes, but also trying to keep from causing group tension
Having played this first encounter of the AP more times then I care to count I thought of asking everyone how we wanted to deal with bandits captured in discussion before we started. However I decided to forgo since it seemed everyone wished to RP things out and I didn't want to blurt out of character info for those that did not have prior information on the AP and wished to be surprised. However in my experience the final outcome of live bandits has been one of the most contentious issues to crop up.
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Trial by combat might be something. Not my first choice but maybe its something that everyone could live with. However I really think that those bandits that have offered information so far shouldn't be put to death out of hand unless they offered threat to the group or the Levetons again.
maybe tricking them using arcane mark and a good bluff might be used to temporarily keep them under control. At higher levels we could handle this easier with things like geas's and the like. Unfortunately not currently an option.
@Alex: I think your idea of forming our own informal (travelling) court system ... and weighing the good and bad and casting a final judgement has merit.
That being said, how would this work? Alex the judge, Rowena & Tassira the jury and Sheoll the executioner?
What of Cadell in the court position? Would he be one of the jury?
I suppose that'd be the case. Alternatively, he could be another executioner...
Well in a adversarial court system I think that Cadell would make a good prosecutor. I think Sheoll would make one of the better judges between all of us. At least in cases like this. He so far seems like he could go either way and knowing what it is to be a bandit might have insights that our characters wouldn't have. Tass, Ro and Alex could stand in as defenders.
As much as a jury would be nice it might be a luxury in this instance. Juries require a level of distance to be affective Of coarse we might simply do such things informally but honestly with 3 NG it seems we would tend towards forgiveness.
Now Alexander would be willing to perform an execution if it was necessary but he would have to feel everything was carried out to uphold justice not necessarily law. executing a unrepentant murderer is ok.
But the men we have now are thieves and used threats but to our knowledge no lethal violence. Heck they tried to flee as soon as things got tough. I can't see killing someone for that. Punish yes but not kill.
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I honestly think in the wilds things might be easier. Any bandits we defeat we can strip of their equipment. Mark them using arcane mark such as on there face and tell them if we see them offend again or with other bandits their lives are forfeit and point them towards the border to turn themselves in. Maybe we can hope for really evil puppy kicking bandits. I mean we can just forgo all the formalities then. I mean they kick puppies :)
Assuming they don't force our hand, which I'm anticipating at this point.
Rowena and Tassira are not qualified to be jury they are not impartial
Who says Rowena cannot be impartial? She has the highest WIS of all the party members.
like Alex said, Rowena Tassira and Alex are all predisposed toward forgiving the bad guys, because of their alignment.
Yes there is the NG alignment factor but that does not mean she lacks impartiality.
And the discussion thus far isn't about forgiving the bandits their transgressions but allowing them the chance to repent and redeem themselves ... The purview of the charter is only as follows: "The punishment for unrepentant banditry remains, as always, execution by sword or rope."
I'm calling it a night ... See you guys in my morning.
I just want to point out that Cadell has not advocated the execution of the prisoners. He has offered several options that will allow for their survival. He has been more practical about their disposition and has not immediately ruled out execution as a possible punishment for thier crimes. When he was interrogating the prisoner he did point out to the prisoner that one possible consequence for his crimes could be execution.
The last comment about hanging them was not written as being shared with the group but as something he said to himself while brooding on the wall. A comment that was prompted more by the effort that will need to be expended to maintain the prisoners safely, and concern that they may loose the opportunity to take the other bandits by suprise by lingering at the trading post too long.
Nodding, satisfied with his idea, he calls over Alex and Cadell and relates his plan again to them, making sure not to speak too loudly.
@Alex and Cadell: Sheoll has relayed his idea regarding the bandits to you, as well. Care to weigh in (via rp)? It would be good if we could decide what is to be done with the bandit prisoners. Thanks. :)
I really hope we can put this issue to bed soon. Then we can move on to more important matters! :)
just popped into to check out the discussion when I seen 2 posts. Right now Alexander and Cadell are having a moment :) but I will try to post a appropriate response soon.
I don't see an issue in testing the men. Leaving a weapon within easy reach after releasing them might work to weed out those that are only being opportunistic I think it would only work once for the group.
I second your feeling Tassira
Honestly getting a wand of Touch of Truthtelling might be something to think about.
@Alex: Re wand, I do like that idea.
If this is going to be a regular thing it wouldn't be fair to expect you to constantly have the spell memorized. Judicious use of that spell in investigating crimes would be crazy useful. Something to think about during kingdom building.
At level 3, Ro has the Zone of Truth spell which she can prepare, and being an area spell, can hit multiple targets which would be more useful. But agreed, regarding the current level 1 spell: Touch of Truthtelling ... I can only effect one target via touch and it uses up all my limited spells/day if I have many intended "targets".
One thing about zone of truth is that it doesn't seem to indicate if a person has been affected by it or not. Having said that it would seem as though at least in some ways Touch of truthtelling is the superior spell. I may of coarse be over looking some general rule of magic or other.
I'll pick this up when I'm awake again.
night Tassira
Night, Tassira.
I think I will turn in to. Good night all.
Night, Alex.
So what oath are we going to have them swear. We could have them swear themselves to the service of the group until they are released. the exact wording would be important.
@Cadell: I'll have a think on the wording of the oath and will post any ideas/suggestions soon.
Since we will know if they aren't affected by the spell we will be able to tell if they fight it. In which case they get the noose. Once they are under the spell if they refuse to swear the oath we ask them too they get the noose. We could have them swear to serve the group or a specific member of the group, and work to advance our cause. They would need to swear to obey our orders and use their talents and abilities to help us reach our goals, with the understanding that we will release them from the oath of service at some future date when we feel they have sufficiently demonstrated their repentance.
Or we could have them swear to serve Oleg for a specified period of time. They would have to swear to obey Oleg's orders and use their talents and abilities to protect Oleg and his wife and further their goals. Oleg would have to be sworn to treat them fairly to feed and clothe and shelter them adequately, but I don't think he would need to do that under the influence of the spell.
While the spell doesn't guarantee that they won't break the oath in the future it does insure that the oath is sworn with the intention of keeping it. I think with an oath sworn under these circumstances we could trust them with pretty much anything, and Oleg would be willing to keep them around. Refusal to swear an oath like this would mean they are unwilling to try to make restitution for their crimes which I think should be a requirement for clemency.
Since we will know if they aren't affected by the spell we will be able to tell if they fight it. In which case they get the noose. Once they are under the spell if they refuse to swear the oath we ask them too they get the noose. We could have them swear to serve the group or a specific member of the group, and work to advance our cause. They would need to swear to obey our orders and use their talents and abilities to help us reach our goals, with the understanding that we will release them from the oath of service at some future date when we feel they have sufficiently demonstrated their repentance.
Or we could have them swear to serve Oleg for a specified period of time. They would have to swear to obey Oleg's orders and use their talents and abilities to protect Oleg and his wife and further their goals. Oleg would have to be sworn to treat them fairly to feed and clothe and shelter them adequately, but I don't think he would need to do that under the influence of the spell.While the spell doesn't guarantee that they won't break the oath in the future it does insure that the oath is sworn with the intention of keeping it. I think with an oath sworn under these circumstances we could trust them with pretty much anything, and Oleg would be willing to keep them around. Refusal to swear an oath like this would mean they are unwilling to try to make restitution for their crimes which I think should be a requirement for clemency.
That pretty much sums up my take on the situation as well. We may need to start budgeting for extra food soon. Assuming these guys didn't feed Tass and Ro a bunch of BS earlier.
Food, weapons, mounts, armor, all those things. I think the touch of truth telling is actually a better spell than zone of truth because we will be able to see when the spell takes hold.
A use activated Wondrous Items with truth telling at first level of ability maybe the way to go. That would cost 2000gp or 1000gp if one of us create it. Was anyone thinking of taking create wondrous item?
The Book of Oath Swearing: This magical tome usually contains parables of the importance of speaking the truth or codified laws of the land. However whatever texts the book contains the magical power of the book is concentrated in the cover and bindings rather than the words found inside. Anyone asked a question while the magic of the book is in affect must speak truthfully as if under a zone of truth spell. However the power of the book's truth saying can only be used on a willing holder. While the book is in hand of the holder and they agree to speak the truth a symbol of justice or the holy symbol of a deity the books creators venerates hovers above the holder and generates a nimbus around the person.
Its a little rough just thought I would throw the idea out there. If it is something that everyone feels is a good idea I could work on it some more. I thought the willing user part would be most appropriate for a court of law. Honestly I am surprised that something like this wouldn't be available through out the world. At least in larger cities.
Interesting magical items, Alexander. Yeah, we can work to try and incorporate those. Great RP devices!
We could have them swear to serve the group or a specific member of the group, and work to advance our cause. They would need to swear to obey our orders and use their talents and abilities to help us reach our goals, with the understanding that we will release them from the oath of service at some future date when we feel they have sufficiently demonstrated their repentance.
Or we could have them swear to serve Oleg for a specified period of time. They would have to swear to obey Oleg's orders and use their talents and abilities to protect Oleg and his wife and further their goals.
A suggestion for the Oath of Redemption:
"In the name of Erastil, I hereby swear to willingly renounce banditry and to seek and walk an honourable path from this day forward.
I shall atone for the wrongdoings I have perpetrated through honest and hard labour with the sanctioned Explorers and Levetons. In true penitence, I shall follow orders and use my talents and skills to advance their honourable cause and goals and to protect these people until such time I have extinguished my debt and proven my contrition and can live as a free and honourable man.
If I break this oath, may the gods' rain their full and mighty retribution down upon me and mine."
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They can swear either on Ro's silver holy Erastil symbol or she has her holy text: The Parables of Erastil ...
And agreed, if they fight the spell or do not want to make the oath/pledge or try to evade some of the wording etc ... Then it is proof they do not want to give up their bad ways and they get the noose. And we've done all we can to turn them onto the right path.
Ooh! That's a very nice oath!
Can't wait to see how they handle it.
That is a nice oath Good job Ro
Thanks GM Aneirin I am glad you like the Book of Oath Swearing. I can do a more polished write up with the magic item crunch in a bit.
Ooh! That's a very nice oath!
Can't wait to see how they handle it.
Umm wait a tick don't you know. lol ;)
I think it is pretty good. I think I might change honest and hard labor to just honest labor, and I don't think we would want them swearing the oath to obey both Us and the Levetons. It should be one or the other. If Oleg wants them around they should swear to obey him, If not they would swear to us as the sanctioned authority.