Mystic Magus

So I've been brushing up on the Magus since I like gish characters and while browsing some forums I've noticed a couple of people talk about multiclassing as a Magus with the Cleric and continuing on as a Mystic Theurge. What I would love to know is why this sort of combination? Is there something I'm missing that makes this a great combination to play as assuming you get to higher levels? I admit it would be interesting to play as a gish character that combines some divine spells with arcane, but I'm not sure about how one could best create this strange beast.

Pretty awful because you can't spell combat/strike with non-Magus spells, I think.

Pretty awful because you can't spell combat/strike with non-Magus spells, I think.

Isn't there an Arcana called Broad Study that allows you to do just that?

In that case, I guess it's just a Magus who can use Cleric spells for utility. Go ahead if you want to play that.

You'd need at least magus 6 to get the arcana, and wouldn't get magus class abilities for levels after switching. Could be interesting, though.

You could worship Torag and use the Blessed Hammer feat to "Spellstrike" with Divine Spells. Only works with warhammers though, which are less than ideal Magus weapons.

You'd need at least magus 6 to get the arcana, and wouldn't get magus class abilities for levels after switching. Could be interesting, though.

Ya, if I remember correctly the build was Magus 7 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 10. Guy said it could be quite deadly, didn't say why though. I guess the point is your a Theurge that can use up to medium armor without penalty and use divine spells with spell combat. Still you get lower BAB and don't have all the perks of being a straight Magus character.

You could worship Torag and use the Blessed Hammer feat to "Spellstrike" with Divine Spells. Only works with warhammers though, which are less than ideal Magus weapons.

Neat feat

Broad Study already allows spellstrike with divine spells.

This build allows for some nice combos, like spellstriking with Harm at high level. Mystic Theurge has slightly lower BAB (two points), but you can use clerical buffs like Divine Favor to compensate.

It would be nice if you can use an early entry trick to go Magus 6 / Cleric 1 / MT, but I believe all of those were errata'ed away.

I think a good one would be magus/druid and use the Flame Blade spell

I think a good one would be magus/druid and use the Flame Blade spell

Drools ....

If you have patience enough (or are starting at 11th level), Druid + VMC Magus with the Crocodile Domain. Archetype your familiar as needed.

Good combo, but the Magus already has River Whip on his list, which does more or less the same.

Good combo, but the Magus already has River Whip on his list, which does more or less the same.

Yes, but you don't threaten squares with a whip unless you sink feats into it. Flame Blade is superior in that sense.

However ... a good Magus (or martial character for that matter) that wields a whip is going to have a spiked gauntlet (or equivalent) in the other hand to threaten with.

Oh, hmmm.. River Whip + Flameblade ... Drooling commences.

Entryhazard wrote:

I think a good one would be magus/druid and use the Flame Blade spell

Drools ....

If you have patience enough (or are starting at 11th level), Druid + VMC Magus with the Crocodile Domain. Archetype your familiar as needed.

What exactly is a VMC Magus?

VMC is Variant multiclassing.

Introduced in Pathfinder Unchained, you can give up half of your general feats in order to gain selected classa abilities leveling up

Still not PFS legal

Paulicus wrote:

You'd need at least magus 6 to get the arcana, and wouldn't get magus class abilities for levels after switching. Could be interesting, though.

Ya, if I remember correctly the build was Magus 7 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 10. Guy said it could be quite deadly, didn't say why though.

Cleric has a lot of good buffs (divine favor, blessing of fervor, righteous might, etc.); also, you choose a negative energy channeling cleric to get spontaneous inflict spells (which are useable with Spell Combat and Spellstrike with Broad Study) to give more damaging options/spell slots (increasing staying power). If you get heroism as a domain spell or through Spell Blending, your resulting attack bonus (with divine favor at the start of combat) is actually slightly higher than a basic magus, too.

VMC is Variant multiclassing.

Introduced in Pathfinder Unchained, you can give up half of your general feats in order to gain selected classa abilities leveling up

Still not PFS legal

Correct, Variant Multiclass. Though I don't recall seeing anything PFS specific in the thread. I wouldn't suggest variant multiclass options if it was for PFS.

Gives you the following a levels:

3) Arcane Pool @ -2 character level
7) Magus Arcana
11) Spellstrike with spells off the Magus spelllist
15) Magus Arcana
19) Magus Arcana

If you take Broad Study as your 7th level Arcana, you can spellstrike at level 11 with the spell list of another class.

Hm, I think I'm going to actually think about this idea a bit. Would be quite interesting if I knew the campaign he was going to be in was going to pretty high levels. How does one do a custom search on the Archives of Nethys? I'm eyeing the Hexcrafter and want to see what I could gain from being a Hexcrafter before I go Cleric and later Mystic Theurge and since the Hexcrafter also gives me all spells up to level six with the curse descriptor for free I would love to be able to do the custom search to figure out what delicious spells I could gain.

Hexcrafter may not be a good option if you're multiclassing- all your hex DCs are based on your magus level (which you're capping at 7) so they'll be pretty useless at higher levels. It could work alright if you only want buff hexes, I guess.

Hexcrafter may not be a good option if you're multiclassing- all your hex DCs are based on your magus level (which you're capping at 7) so they'll be pretty useless at higher levels. It could work alright if you only want buff hexes, I guess.

Oh that is certainly something I've been thinking about, which is why I'm considering taking Accursed Strike at 3 and grabbing Broad Study at 6 so that at 7 or 8 (probably 8) I'll be able to switch to Cleric and start to cast cleric spells. At 4 I'm thinking either Prehensile Hair or Flight.

Flight is indispensable on any melee character.

How good would you all say the Unlucky Halfling alternate racial trait is? With Magical Knack and that my curses would continue to be my level throughout the character's life (with some obvious drawbacks, of course). I have to admit a Halfling who curses people is an amusing idea ("Who's unlucky now, ya tall prick!!!").

Pretty bad, I'd say. Note that you already get Ill Omen on your list as a hexcrafter, and that the +1 DC only applies to curses (and there's not a lot of good curse spells). That's not worth taking a -1 on all your saves.

Pretty bad, I'd say. Note that you already get Ill Omen on your list as a hexcrafter, and that the +1 DC only applies to curses (and there's not a lot of good curse spells). That's not worth taking a -1 on all your saves.

Hm, might still go with a Halfling but axe the Unlucky Halfling part.

Oh, halflings are great. It's just that this particular trait is not :)

Oh, halflings are great. It's just that this particular trait is not :)

Indeed. Besides what with having Fleet of Foot to make him as fast as everyone else and focusing more on debuffing and (much later on) a modicum of support his small size won't hurt him when it comes to weapons. Although I have been thinking of going Human and taking Dual Talent so my Dex and Int are high and so I have a decent Wisdom (for when I become a Menhir Savant and so enemy spells are less nasty).

I have a friend in the Reign of Winter game I'm playing in right now whose character is a magus/cleric/mystic theurge. Not sure on the exact build, but she's an incredibly powerful character, so it can be done.

Of course, this is a guy who also made a mermaid barbarian PC not only viable, but impressive. So ymmv.

I'd suggest using the fractional bonus system for multiclassing in Unchained, if your game allows it. Evens out things like BAB and saves so that you don't see the hits that those scores sometimes take for multiclassing.

Merfolk are crazy strong in Pathfinder. Stat bonuses, alt race trait for less bad land speed, fast movement from Barbarian. No mystery there.

I have a magus that I was thinking about either going theurge or arcane trickster with.

He's level 3 magus with 18 Str, 19 or 20 Intel, and I'm sure that his wisdom is 16 with a 15 charisma.

If I go theurge I was going to go to level 6 magus and get broad study. (It's a must)
I was wondering if I go cleric and then go theurge, do my domains stay the same?

And when I read about Theuge, when you level you get levels in both spell casting classes, or just one or the other?

The only problems with mystic theurge magus is:
1. The BAB Hit
2. MAD (you need combat specs, Int and Wis)
3. Figuring out the order to go in.
4. It's very late game

I would suggest:
1. Magus 7
2. Divine 3
3. Mystic Theurge "X"

With stats being combat oriented first then Int, finally some wisdom.

And yes mystic theurge advances both spellcasting paths at once.

I tried it and it felt very underwhelming, even at high levels.

Another option if you can't afford two casting stats is Oracle and Eldritch Scion. Not that anybody would recommend that. Just interjecting that. It's way slower to start, and may not provide as much incentive. Two casting stats isn't so bad, is it?

Another option if you can't afford two casting stats is Oracle and Eldritch Scion. Not that anybody would recommend that. Just interjecting that. It's way slower to start, and may not provide as much incentive. Two casting stats isn't so bad, is it?

Depends on what you want to do with the second.

If it's just buffing and back up spells like heal then it doesn't have to be high and it's not that much of an issue.

If you are trying to get more offense out of it or something then yeah not the best idea.

Well, the main problem is that the Magus is a gish and the Mystic Theurge is not. There's not a lot of synergy there.

Magus / Arcane Trickster is a better deal; it basically trades the Magus's class features for sneak attack (also, it can be entered with just one level of rogue and the accomplished sneak attacker feat).

Well, the main problem is that the Magus is a gish and the Mystic Theurge is not. There's not a lot of synergy there.

Magus / Arcane Trickster is a better deal; it basically trades the Magus's class features for sneak attack (also, it can be entered with just one level of rogue and the accomplished sneak attacker feat).

The main reason it's even possibly viable is the action economy of the magus. The ability to full attack and buff in the same round combined with some of the very nice buffs available to the cleric is very nice. The level ten ability to cast two spells at once combined with a full attack from spell combat is also really nice... but that's a LOT to go through for such a pay off.

I see, I've been weighing out the pros and cons of the two, and I have left it to where I can go down either path. With in my next two sessions of play I will make my decision based on roll play. The campaign I'm playing in so far has a lot of undead, but we also have a paladin in the party; so I may not be needed as Theurge. With access to fly at level 9 being able to sneak attack would be better. Though, roll play wise, Theurge would be a more fun class to play and have to explain in game.

The biggest issue is the loss of class features. Your spellcasting progression is delayed by 3 levels, you lose CL (read: spell damage dice) for both classes, and the BAB hit means you qualify for feats later than normal too. In addition, the magus already requires 3-4 stats - adding a divine caster gives you even more required stats, especially clerics. If you really want to do a cleric into MT, consider the Divine Strategist archetype - you'll lose a domain and channel (which don't progress with the PRC) and gain +1 initiative and the ability to always act in the surprise round.

The biggest issue is the loss of class features. Your spellcasting progression is delayed by 3 levels, you lose CL (read: spell damage dice) for both classes,

There's a trait for that (+2 CL on one side).

and the BAB hit means you qualify for feats later than normal too. In addition, the magus already requires 3-4 stats - adding a divine caster gives you even more required stats, especially clerics.

Well, the availability of good defensive buffs mitigates the need for dex/con, and the fact that you won't be attacking with your cleric spells mitigates the need for wisdom. So it's doable, if not super-optimized, and only at high level.

LuniasM wrote:

The biggest issue is the loss of class features. Your spellcasting progression is delayed by 3 levels, you lose CL (read: spell damage dice) for both classes,

There's a trait for that (+2 CL on one side).

Quote:

and the BAB hit means you qualify for feats later than normal too. In addition, the magus already requires 3-4 stats - adding a divine caster gives you even more required stats, especially clerics.

Well, the availability of good defensive buffs mitigates the need for dex/con, and the fact that you won't be attacking with your cleric spells mitigates the need for wisdom. So it's doable, if not super-optimized, and only at high level.

You will still need at least 16 Wisdom and INT in addition to Dex for initiative/AC/Reflex, and spells only help mitigate that issue once they have been cast - get ambushed and it won't matter what buffs you normally have up. This build ends the game with very low reflex saves so this is even more necessary than normal. Con is needed for HP - you're a melee combatant, you can't afford to start with a low con and at higher levels you'll need it to survive.

Remember also that your buffs will rely on the Cleric caster level, which is going to be either 7 or 5 levels behind. That is not an insignificant number.

You can say "But I'm going to have buffs up to fix that" and I can tell you right now that's something people take for granted. I'm running a campaign for Level 19 players right now and they have just as many fights buffed as they have being surprised. From experience, it is best to assume the worst and build a character who is more balanced between offense and defense. Without decent Con and Dex, this build wouldn't even survive long enough to get to those levels.

Sure, you need 16 int and wis at level fifteen where a Headband of Mental Prowess is easily affordable.

For example, start with 17 dex +2 racial, 14 int/con/wis, 7 str/cha. So yes, doable. Or if you want, start with 16 con and get a HoMP +4 instead. Of course you'll have all-day buffs up like Magical Vestment and Defending Bone; and a Magus can cast self-buffs while making full attacks. Spending a feat on Spell Blending (Contingency) is not a bad plan either.

Actually, since you're going to grab three levels of cleric, take Divine Strategist. Boom, immune to surprise.

A possible way to not being MAD is the Reliquiarian Occultist, that is Divine based on INT

Sure, you need 16 int and wis at level fifteen where a Headband of Mental Prowess is easily affordable.

For example, start with 17 dex +2 racial, 14 int/con/wis, 7 str/cha. So yes, doable. Or if you want, start with 16 con and get a HoMP +4 instead. Of course you'll have all-day buffs up like Magical Vestment and Defending Bone; and a Magus can cast self-buffs while making full attacks. Spending a feat on Spell Blending (Contingency) is not a bad plan either.

Actually, since you're going to grab three levels of cleric, take Divine Strategist. Boom, immune to surprise.

My point is that you'll need at least that much point-wise. If you go Dex-based it'll be easier than Strength-based by far, allowing you to only use just Dex, Con, Int, and Wis. That's still a lot of stats, and you'll still need some Str to carry all your gear (at early levels - just don't get into an antimagic field or anything).

Your suggested point buy above is liable to get any low-level character killed, and there are a TON of effects that reduce your strength or charisma to levels that will easily make this character useless. One good roll on a Ray of Enfeeblement will reduce this character to 1 strength, overencumbering them even with just a weapon. Limp Lash will swiftly paralyze this character as early as level 3 and remains a constant problem all the way to the end of the game. A bad save against a Ray of Exhaustion followed up with a Limp Lash will drop them even at high levels. Neither of these spells allow a save to negate the effects and both are very low-level.

Magic Vestement lasts 1 hour per level, which is hardly an all-day buff considering that you couldn't cast it until Level 12 to begin with and you'd only get 5 hours from it. Defending Bone doesn't help against spells or bludgeoning attacks - it's good, but it's not enough to warrant starting with a lower CON score. If you're casting buffs while full-attacking you aren't casting damaging spells, and a dex-based magus doesn't deal as much damage without offensive spells.

I mentioned the Divine Strategist above, and it doesn't make you immune to surprise - it allows you to act in the surprise round. It's still pretty good considering the alternative is a domain and channel energy that won't scale.

Str 10, Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 10 before racial bonuses.

Play elf, Dex 16, Int 16

and that's if you want the wisdom to start with. If we want to get fancy:

Str 10, Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 9 before racial bonuses will work, as we just need a headband to make up the wisdom by level 10.

I mean yeah you aren't a MAD wizard or even a fighter or barbarian, but it's not like this is difficult.

There are plenty of viable builds for a Magus/cleric/MT, now it's not the most optimized, and it will require skill and forethought and care, I fully agree it's not a character for the faint of heart!

However it is also not core rule book rogue bad either.

Going strength and relying on armor isn't horrible either (especially since there are more strength related buffs for this sort of character), but honestly that's just a matter of preference.

Going Divine Strategist Would work.
Losing one domain and the channel ability would be a very big hit, but gaining the ability to always act in a surprise round is nice, if you roll a high enough roll it's pretty much the better version of uncanny dodge. And you gain half your cleric levels as Initiative bonus; your allies gaining 1/4th of your bonus is also really powerful.

Taking the feat Magical Knack would give you back two caster levels for magus if you're concerned with it. That is, if your GM allows it.

Your suggested point buy above is liable to get any low-level character killed, and there are a TON of effects that reduce your strength or charisma to levels that will easily make this character useless.

So what? One good roll on e.g. ghoul touch will make any character useless. That's why it's a team game. There's not many builds that have zero weaknesses, so that's not a problem with this build.

I just gave you 14 or 16 con, that's a normal value for any character who's not a dwarf. If having 14 con is an automatic death sentence in your games, well then obviously you're playing a very different game than most of us.

LuniasM wrote:

Your suggested point buy above is liable to get any low-level character killed, and there are a TON of effects that reduce your strength or charisma to levels that will easily make this character useless.

So what? One good roll on e.g. ghoul touch will make any character useless. That's why it's a team game. There's not many builds that have zero weaknesses, so that's not a problem with this build.

I just gave you 14 or 16 con, that's a normal value for any character who's not a dwarf. If having 14 con is an automatic death sentence in your games, well then obviously you're playing a very different game than most of us.

There's a world of difference between failing a save and intentionally dumping your stats so low that you end up creating an easily-exploitable weakness. The Magus Theurge build is MAD enough that you need to dump two stats to 7 just to afford the point buy, loses 3 BAB over 20 levels, loses progression of class features, loses HP, and if you somehow manage to survive until you finally get Level 6 spells in both classes at level 20 you're so far behind the rest of the party that it barely matters. I built this character back in 2013 when I first read about the idea and found that it just wasn't very good. Most of the touch spells the Cleric grants allow saves, and you won't be able to make them stick with so many required stats. It has decent buffs, but they won't be that strong because your CL is so low.

I never said anything about your proposed stat array's CON, so I don't see where that miscommunication is coming from.

The fact that Pathfinder is a team game is exactly why this build just won't work - what does it actually provide the group? You take more time to buff yourself just to function at a level equivalent to your fellow party members, you can't really help buff because your CL is so far below the curve, you've got lower hp than most frontliners, you've got so many required stats that you have to min-max just to be functional, and by the time you're finally becoming strong the campaign is nearly over. You don't have to have zero weaknesses, but you have to have strengths too. Otherwise they're better off leaving you at the next town and finding a new teammate.

Str 10, Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 10 before racial bonuses.

Play elf, Dex 16, Int 16

and that's if you want the wisdom to start with. If we want to get fancy:

Str 10, Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 9 before racial bonuses will work, as we just need a headband to make up the wisdom by level 10.

I mean yeah you aren't a MAD wizard or even a fighter or barbarian, but it's not like this is difficult.

There are plenty of viable builds for a Magus/cleric/MT, now it's not the most optimized, and it will require skill and forethought and care, I fully agree it's not a character for the faint of heart!

However it is also not core rule book rogue bad either.

Going strength and relying on armor isn't horrible either (especially since there are more strength related buffs for this sort of character), but honestly that's just a matter of preference.

Both of these arrays are more balanced, and perhaps it isn't CRB rogue levels of bad, but the build is hardly strong enough to consider viable until high levels.

It's pretty silly to think that getting three more points in your completely unused strength score (to protect against the rare case of enfeeblement) is worth the tradeoff against getting -1 to hit, damage, initiative, armor class, and reflex all at the same time.

Abraham spalding wrote:

Str 10, Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 10 before racial bonuses.

Play elf, Dex 16, Int 16

and that's if you want the wisdom to start with. If we want to get fancy:

Str 10, Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 9 before racial bonuses will work, as we just need a headband to make up the wisdom by level 10.

I mean yeah you aren't a MAD wizard or even a fighter or barbarian, but it's not like this is difficult.

There are plenty of viable builds for a Magus/cleric/MT, now it's not the most optimized, and it will require skill and forethought and care, I fully agree it's not a character for the faint of heart!

However it is also not core rule book rogue bad either.

Going strength and relying on armor isn't horrible either (especially since there are more strength related buffs for this sort of character), but honestly that's just a matter of preference.

Both of these arrays are more balanced, and perhaps it isn't CRB rogue levels of bad, but the build is hardly strong enough to consider viable until high levels.

At levels 1~7 my common build for this is magus 7, and the feats and combat focus will be the same. It's only levels 8~10 things change at all. Here the character is a bit weaker -- he loses a point of BAB and has different spells advancing (weakly). As he gets further things get better on the spell front and continues to drop on BAB.

At levels 1~7 my common build for this is magus 7, and the feats and combat focus will be the same. It's only levels 8~10 things change at all. Here the character is a bit weaker -- he loses a point of BAB and has different spells advancing (weakly). As he gets further things get better on the spell front and continues to drop on BAB.

Indeed.

The more interesting question is, what cleric spells are good for this build that cannot easily be duplicated by Magus spells? For example, Divine Favor is a nice self-buff, particularly if you take the fortune's favored trait. I'm not too impressed by first-level cleric spells here, but second level has some gems.