Agh! Hellacious day. Imaginary numbers followed by lab. Ended up going through the McDonalds drive through on the way home cause I couldn't face cooking after the heart dissection this afternoon. Blech. Trying to catch up on thread now. May be a bit before I can put up a post, but sometime within the next half hour to hour for sure.
Ack. I face algebra in its full glory for the first time next week in over twenty years. The question is whether I have the confidence to be a weapon of math destruction.
Hur hur. :)
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Saw that. I agree and disagree. Mostly just because I personally don't like "impossible" things in the game. I'll think about it, but I may still override the RAW in this case...
Well in this case, since the DC is 15 plus the spell level, it really doesn't matter with a 14 result.
Personally I can see both sides of it. At the very least, I think it should be more difficult than identifying a normal spell. My gut tells me to add 5 to the DC. What do you think?
FWIW I tend to agree with you that it would seem it should be more difficult as it doesn't necessarily require all the components necessary as would casting a standard spell.
EDIT: We already got our answer. Spellcraft can't be used. Period. Go to the link embedded above as to why.
Ok, here's what I'm going to do for this circumstance -- DC will be 25 plus spell level. That makes it a bit difficult -- especially at this level -- but not impossible. (I still feel that it should be possible to get some indication as to what the creature in question is trying to do. I think that this is a reasonable compromise towards that.)
Moff, not to be 'that player,' but....
Re: Spellcraft. It's subject to Perception penalties, but there certainly may be visible spell effects that can be observed at casting.
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I'm a little confused about the order of initiative here. We got to do stuff after our initiative roll but not act in order then our initiative takes effect and had time to set up. It's a little confusing because of the first come first serve nature there since some rolled higher initiatives than others but couldn't take up spots that were already occupied by those who rolled lower on init. I'm just confused. :\
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Moff, not to be 'that player,' but....
** spoiler omitted **
You are sooooooo "that player"...
;-)
... meanwhile, not to be "that DM", but...
Partially, just for my sanity in trying to keep track of what actually constitutes someone being "ready". (And for consistency.)
If it helps -- you can say that you were caught off guard because he is hasted and moving quicker than you were expecting.
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Moff, not to be 'that player,' but....
** spoiler omitted **
You are sooooooo "that player"...
;-)
... meanwhile, not to be "that DM", but...
** spoiler omitted **
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I'm a little confused about the order of initiative here. We got to do stuff after our initiative roll but not act in order then our initiative takes effect and had time to set up. It's a little confusing because of the first come first serve nature there since some rolled higher initiatives than others but couldn't take up spots that were already occupied by those who rolled lower on init. I'm just confused. :\
I was actually expecting/hoping that you would have a few extra rounds to prep and/or talk about it. From their point of view as soon as one of you disappeared, they took it as an act of aggression. So I kind of gave people a (rather) loose 2 additional rounds before initiative started...
Sorry -- it was kind of confusing. Anything you would have rather done in those two rounds?
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I'm a little confused about the order of initiative here. We got to do stuff after our initiative roll but not act in order then our initiative takes effect and had time to set up. It's a little confusing because of the first come first serve nature there since some rolled higher initiatives than others but couldn't take up spots that were already occupied by those who rolled lower on init. I'm just confused. :\I was actually expecting/hoping that you would have a few extra rounds to prep and/or talk about it. From their point of view as soon as one of you disappeared, they took it as an act of aggression. So I kind of gave people a (rather) loose 2 additional rounds before initiative started...
Sorry -- it was kind of confusing. Anything you would have rather done in those two rounds?
We got 2 rounds? I only took account for one. :(
Yes, I'd have made a readied action to attack whichever one came closer to me and switched back to the frost greatsword over Alaric as my move action. :P
Edit: I'm REALLY confused. :(
I'm a little confused about the order of initiative here. We got to do stuff after our initiative roll but not act in order then our initiative takes effect and had time to set up. It's a little confusing because of the first come first serve nature there since some rolled higher initiatives than others but couldn't take up spots that were already occupied by those who rolled lower on init. I'm just confused. :\
I first thought we were acting in the order of initiative, but I believe Moff decided to give anyone a 'surprise round' to move and/or set themselves up. He proceeded to begin starting combat, but allowed anyone who hasn't chimed in yet to get a free surprise round move as long as it didn't interfere and/or break what was already going on as they couldn't have anticipated it. So, when I hustled 120', that was the 'official' start of first round combat. The 'surprise round', I turned invisible while you and Janet hustled behind that tree, but the creatures also attempted to gate in additional reinforcements. In the meantime, CH and Taig attempted to parlay/negotiate.
That's how I see it.
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What about the guard that has a +20 perception? Is he never caught flat-footed?
I threw in the haste thing just because. I'm not saying that there's a rule for it.
Really it boils down to that I can see situations (in addition to this one) that make "flat-footed" at least as gray. And I'm just shooting for something a little more solid or consistent.
So -- if people have any time at all to prep, they can never be flat-footed. Is that correct?
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I'm a little confused about the order of initiative here. We got to do stuff after our initiative roll but not act in order then our initiative takes effect and had time to set up. It's a little confusing because of the first come first serve nature there since some rolled higher initiatives than others but couldn't take up spots that were already occupied by those who rolled lower on init. I'm just confused. :\I first thought we were acting in the order of initiative, but I believe Moff decided to give anyone a 'surprise round' to move and/or set themselves up. He proceeded to begin starting combat, but allowed anyone who hasn't chimed in yet to get a free surprise round move as long as it didn't interfere and/or break what was already going on as they couldn't have anticipated it. So, when I hustled 120', that was the 'official' start of first round combat. The 'surprise round', I turned invisible while you and Janet hustled behind that tree, but the creatures also attempted to gate in additional reinforcements. In the meantime, CH and Taig attempted to parlay/negotiate.
That's how I see it.
Right, but in initiative terms I act ahead of Pinna and should've been able to claim her spot rather than have her stand there. I was denied position by a person with lower initiative. I don't like that, frankly... I guess it's my own personal bias. <shrug>
Damn, I post at length and Paizo lags and then you all ninja me.
I didn't know there was '2 rounds' either. I'm not going to stress about that. I leave now to let you folks sort out the rest. Chalk it up to a misunderstanding and/or the DM wanting to move things along for those chomping at the bits. :)
Later!
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What about the guard that has a +20 perception? Is he never caught flat-footed?
I threw in the haste thing just because. I'm not saying that there's a rule for it.
Really it boils down to that I can see situations (in addition to this one) that make "flat-footed" at least as gray. And I'm just shooting for something a little more solid or consistent.
So -- if people have any time at all to prep, they can never be flat-footed. Is that correct?
If they've acted in their own self defense against a person they perceive as a potential threat, then they shouldn't be flat-footed. It's another part of my initiative confusion, me thinks. We've all acted, hence it's not a surprise round (unless we forgo the abishai attack) right?
When I looked up flat footed it specified that it was in effect before your first regular turn in initiative order. I think that's the real confusion here. If we were in initiative for those two round then no, nobody is flat-footed. If initiative just started then yes, everybody is flat-footed. At least that's my interpretation of it.
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When I looked up flat footed it specified that it was in effect before your first regular turn in initiative order. I think that's the real confusion here. If we were in initiative for those two round then no, nobody is flat-footed. If initiative just started then yes, everybody is flat-footed. At least that's my interpretation of it.
Right, but that's also part of my confusion. I'm thinking we should've been in initiative before this round, though. :(
Edit: As soon as Vassago cast Invisibility, that is.
I'll chime in.
I don't think anyone should be flat-footed at this point, either.
Second, even though Vortic went first in initiative order, the way it looks as described in the order is that he followed Pinna in the free round and went behind her. If you want to trade places, then I'm fine with it. Moff should allow to re-roll both effects toward you instead of Pinna and you'd be fair to do the same to save.
Call it up for hiccups and we'll be better the next combat encounter.
Now I'm really gone (my ride is late).
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... hence it's not a surprise round (unless we forgo the abishai attack) right?
Not sure I understand that statement.
I gave them two clear rounds of actions. There was certainly some of ...
...and/or the DM wanting to move things along...
... but nothing substantial was happening so I wasn't looking for hard and fast initiative order stuff. I was really just looking for information on what people were going to be doing for a couple of rounds. (I'll not do that again.)
I can understand your frustration on placement/movement with something like that. If it makes you feel any better, they still would have attacked Pinna. (She's an "unknown" and therefore they want to deal with her first.)
I'm still not sure about the whole flat-footed thing. If you see the enemy and expect them to attack and cast shield or mage armor, but the attack doesn't come for another 5 minutes later, can you be flat-footed? To try and help minimize that in the future, if something happens that I feel will start to move things along, I'll just go in initiative order even if nothing is really happening for a few rounds.
Sorry about all that.
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I'll chime in.
I don't think anyone should be flat-footed at this point, either.
Second, even though Vortic went first in initiative order, the way it looks as described in the order is that he followed Pinna in the free round and went behind her. If you want to trade places, then I'm fine with it. Moff should allow to re-roll both effects toward you instead of Pinna and you'd be fair to do the same to save.
Call it up for hiccups and we'll be better the next combat encounter.
Now I'm really gone (my ride is late).
I'm cool with however Moff choose to proceed from this point forward. I just wanted to state the case. :)
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... hence it's not a surprise round (unless we forgo the abishai attack) right?Not sure I understand that statement.
I gave them two clear rounds of actions. There was certainly some of ...
...and/or the DM wanting to move things along...... but nothing substantial was happening so I wasn't looking for hard and fast initiative order stuff. I was really just looking for information on what people were going to be doing for a couple of rounds. (I'll not do that again.)
I can understand your frustration on placement/movement with something like that. If it makes you feel any better, they still would have attacked Pinna. (She's an "unknown" and therefore they want to deal with her first.)
I'm still not sure about the whole flat-footed thing. If you see the enemy and expect them to attack and cast shield or mage armor, but the attack doesn't come for another 5 minutes later, can you be flat-footed? To try and help minimize that in the future, if something happens that I feel will start to move things along, I'll just go in initiative order even if nothing is really happening for a few rounds.
Sorry about all that.
No, don't be sorry. The whole thing is exploration on our parts too. I think rounds are necessary in hostile environment, or when potential enemies are afoot and we should only come out of rounds when it's apparent they're not hostile. I guess it's inverse thinking in that regard. Assume combat first? :P Weird, I know.
We might want to take this as a PbP learning experience. Some of us have not played them before and I don't think Moff has DM'd them either. I was under the assumption we were in rounds as soon as initiative was called for. I should have tagged my action as conditional upon prior actors - Vassago, abishai, Vortic - per our convention. I must say, I assumed they were hostile when I heard them attempt to summon, which was the round before combat, which I thought we were already in because of the initiative call.
Right. We'll do better next time. :)
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If you want to trade places, then I'm fine with it. Moff should allow to re-roll both effects toward you instead of Pinna and you'd be fair to do the same to save.
I'll allow you to switch places if you want. The attacks were still against Pinna regardless -- positions will just be flipped (he had plenty of movement). And we'll say that no one is flat-footed so Pinna can ignore the first Fort Save and damage.
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If you want to trade places, then I'm fine with it. Moff should allow to re-roll both effects toward you instead of Pinna and you'd be fair to do the same to save.I'll allow you to switch places if you want. The attacks were still against Pinna regardless -- positions will just be flipped (he had plenty of movement). And we'll say that no one is flat-footed so Pinna can ignore the first Fort Save and damage.
Then lets flip, please. Vortic would want to be closer to the Abishai. :)
Then lets flip, please. Vortic would want to be closer to the Abishai. :)If you want to trade places, then I'm fine with it. Moff should allow to re-roll both effects toward you instead of Pinna and you'd be fair to do the same to save.I'll allow you to switch places if you want. The attacks were still against Pinna regardless -- positions will just be flipped (he had plenty of movement). And we'll say that no one is flat-footed so Pinna can ignore the first Fort Save and damage.
OK, so Vortic is at P-24 and Pinna at Q-24. Pinna took the attacks... hmm... as for already being FF or not, your call, Moff. There's an advantage to me to have the ring tuned, so I have a vested interest in both sides. Failed the second save no matter what, and it won't affect anyone else since they have all attacked.
Where did bad guy move to to get Pinna?
Done. Lynora's turn. Eep! *chews nails*
So, perhaps my next character should be a tougher melee combatant?
Good to see we have this resolved. Kinda surprised the thread didn't move as much as I thought it would have. Right now, my move still stands for Round 2 when it is my turn.
And on that note, I'm going to succumb to PM cold meds.
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Speaking of your move -- did you roll to hit with magic missile?Good to see we have this resolved. Kinda surprised the thread didn't move as much as I thought it would have. Right now, my move still stands for Round 2 when it is my turn.
And on that note, I'm going to succumb to PM cold meds.
Roll to hit? I thought it struck unerringly? *double checks*
Yep. Unerringly. :)
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Speaking of your move -- did you roll to hit with magic missile?Good to see we have this resolved. Kinda surprised the thread didn't move as much as I thought it would have. Right now, my move still stands for Round 2 when it is my turn.
And on that note, I'm going to succumb to PM cold meds.
Roll to hit? I thought it struck unerringly? *double checks*
Yep. Unerringly. :)
That's why I was confused by his action. He did a ranged touch attack and cast magic missile. So I'm confused.
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That's why I was confused by his action. He did a ranged touch attack and cast magic missile. So I'm confused.Speaking of your move -- did you roll to hit with magic missile?Good to see we have this resolved. Kinda surprised the thread didn't move as much as I thought it would have. Right now, my move still stands for Round 2 when it is my turn.
And on that note, I'm going to succumb to PM cold meds.
Roll to hit? I thought it struck unerringly? *double checks*
Yep. Unerringly. :)
Okay, I'm scratching my head on this one too.
Edit: Maybe he went back on an orb spell?
I goofed. I did mean to do magic missile.
I blame the drugs for me to take the extra precaution because I was trying to remember everything else (like SR). Did the RTA as a force of habit. /scapegoat_excuse
I am just letting you know i will be lurking in your PbP now
Apologies for my sudden disappearance. A lightning strike near my apartment building last night fried the cable and since I have cable internet...
Lyn, yikes!
CH, remember that Lanwin can run as well as double move, under the right conditions.
I forgot about running. I think it's safe to do in this case, especially since being denied his dex bonus to AC isn't particularly consequential to Lanwin.Lyn, yikes!
CH, remember that Lanwin can run as well as double move, under the right conditions.
Running isn't usually feasible in dungeons, so we tend to forget about it. It's kind of nice to have a big, open field like this in which to maneuver.
Running isn't usually feasible in dungeons, so we tend to forget about it. It's kind of nice to have a big, open field like this in which to maneuver.I forgot about running. I think it's safe to do in this case, especially since being denied his dex bonus to AC isn't particularly consequential to Lanwin.Lyn, yikes!
CH, remember that Lanwin can run as well as double move, under the right conditions.
Which is why I took advantage of a full run under the cloak of invisibility. :)
Question:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Command is a close range spell. I've calculated that I'm roughly 80' away from the abishai at the gate (the one closest to me), so in order to pull that off, it'd have one hell of a HD for its spell-like ability CL equivalent.
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Question:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Command is a close range spell. I've calculated that I'm roughly 80' away from the abishai at the gate (the one closest to me), so in order to pull that off, it'd have one hell of a HD for its spell-like ability CL equivalent.
Well, crap. Ok, so he moved to R13 and did it.
Well, crap. Ok, so he moved to R13 and did it.Question:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Command is a close range spell. I've calculated that I'm roughly 80' away from the abishai at the gate (the one closest to me), so in order to pull that off, it'd have one hell of a HD for its spell-like ability CL equivalent.
Noted. And seeing as SP slew one abishai, I essentially know my next move. :)
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Noted. And seeing as SP slew one abishai, I essentially know my next move. :)Well, crap. Ok, so he moved to R13 and did it.Question:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Command is a close range spell. I've calculated that I'm roughly 80' away from the abishai at the gate (the one closest to me), so in order to pull that off, it'd have one hell of a HD for its spell-like ability CL equivalent.
I swear I must be getting old. I think I have all the positions right, and they're not. Sorry SP and Urizen. I should have the positions correct next time I post the map.
I swear I must be getting old. I think I have all the positions right, and they're not. Sorry SP and Urizen. I should have the positions correct next time I post the map.
It's alright. I've made blunders too. :)
I have to head out for awhile to deal with insurance and a traffic ticket. I don't think whatever the next three are doing will interfere with what I plan to do since my turn emerges before theirs. I'll post in a spoiler for R3.
SP -- does Vortic's AC change with any of your special maneuvers?
Via Treppa Relay: Vortic's standard flashy things (PA, FF) do not change AC.
Just got back. Nice crit, SP!