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Players are going to find ways to heal up out of combat when there are no time constraints. They'll do this with whatever option is the most reliable and has the least impact - they'll use wands of cure light wounds if those are an option or they'll just end up retreating back to camp/town for the day (resulting in 15 minute adventuring days). Oftentimes, in my experience, Game Masters will give them "free" healing items just to keep them from going to town for the night after 15 minutes of adventuring.
If we want to have out of combat healing that is 1) not mundane, 2) not item based, 3) thematic, and 4) disruptable I'd like to propose adding one hour rituals to the game.
I suggested a Healing Circle ritual in another thread and Dire Ursus offered some helpful additions that made me like the idea even more.
I don't think it'd be that hard to add some 1 hour rituals. It'd mix well with the other 1 hour activities currently in the game (identifying items, repairing dents). Imagine Sorcerer is identifying a magic item, the fighter is repairing a dent in his shield and the Rogue is using his esoteric knowledge to create a healing circle to heal his party, each taking 1 hour. That seems to work out nicely.
I really like the scene evoked there - a short period of downtime where party members are doing useful things which could be interrupted if the GM decides to challenge them.
Here are some rough examples of what I'm suggesting by One Hour Healing Rituals (and I'm not suggesting these as written - just throwing them out as rough examples).
PRIMAL RITUAL - Ley Healing
Casting - 1 Hour
Cost - Uncommon Herbs worth a total of (whatever is balanced) x spell level
Secondary Casters - 1, Nature or Medicine
Proficiency - expert in Nature
Range - 10 Feet; Targets all creatures within range
You call upon the ley magic laying dormant in the earth and channel its power through sacred herbs to provide healing to those around you. Etc, etc.
Success - Creatures in range regain your class modifier hitpoints per spell level and remove one disease afflicting the targets.
Critical Success - Creatures in range regain your class modifier hitpoints per spell level and remove all diseases afflicting the targets.
Failure - Nothing occurs.
Critical failure - Creature in range are bolstered.
Heightened - Whatever is balanced.
Thematic Example - Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien
Aragorn knelt beside Faramir, and held a hand upon his brow. And those that watched felt that some great struggle was going on. For Aragorn’s face grew grey with weariness; and ever and anon he called the name of Faramir, but each time more faintly to their hearing, as if Aragorn himself was removed from them, and walked afar in some dark vale, calling for one that was lost ... taking two leaves, he laid them on his hands and breathed on them, and then he crushed them, and straightway a living freshness filled the room, as if the air itself awoke and tingled, sparkling with joy. And then he cast the leaves into the bowls of steaming water that were brought to him, and at once all hearts were lightened. For the fragrance that came to each was like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun in some land of which the fair world in spring is itself but a fleeting memory. But Aragorn stood up as one refreshed, and his eyes smiled as he held a bowl before Faramir’s dreaming face ... suddenly Faramir stirred, and he opened his eyes, and he looked on Aragorn who bent over him; and a light of knowledge and love was kindled in his eyes, and he spoke softly. ‘My lord, you called me. I come."
OCCULT RITUAL - Siphon Eternal Existence
Casting - 1 HourCost - silver powder worth a total of (whatever is balanced) x spell level
Secondary Casters - 1, Occultism or Medicine
Proficiency - expert in Occultism
Range - 10 Feet Circle; Targets all creatures within circle
Tapping into powers that lay beneath the thin veil of physical reality, you channel spirits that have never known life and will never known death. The esoteric runes drawn in silver force these spirits to pass some of their eternity on to the living...if you didn't make any mistakes.
Success - Creatures in range regain your class modifier in hitpoints per spell level.
Critical Success - Creatures in range regain double your class modifier in hitpoints per spell level.
Failure - Nothing occurs.
Critical failure - The caster is afflicted with a curse.
Heightened - Whatever is balanced.
Thematic Example - Goldenhand, Garth Nix
“Best heal Nick first,” muttered Lirael. She kept one eye on the Free Magic creature as she once again reached for the Charter, this time delving deeper into the eternal flow. Seeking out rarer, more powerful marks, which required both certain knowledge of them and a great effort of will to draw them out. When she had them all arranged and held in her mind, she spoke the word that would call a master mark from the Charter. It came out, slowly turning like a brilliant wheel, with the other marks following in a long spiral. Lirael moved the master mark with her golden hand and the direction of her mind, setting it against Nick’s chest. The spiral tightened to become something like a golden, shining tornado and very slowly began to spin its way into the young man’s body, the golden light of its passage spreading down through his torso and out along his limbs.
Lirael wiped her forehead and rather shakily got to her feet, still watching the miniature spiral of gold and silver Charter marks patiently wind its way into Nick’s chest. She was weary now, the effort of casting such a spell taxing her strength.
Those rough examples should provide an idea of what I'd love to see. Reliable out of combat healing that's accessible, interesting, and disruptable.
There are plenty of other motiffs that could be adopted...
o-- evil characters (ala blighters) who siphoning the life force from nature to heal themselves
o-- carefully crafted totems designed to capture fey spirits and force them to provide healing until they escape
o-- occult chants over bubbling cauldrons full of alchemic components...resulting in a bitter sludge that somehow restores vitality
o-- shamanistic ceremonies involving the caster taking damage themselves to summon a spirit that heals the rest of the party
o-- musical performances that soothe the soul and accelerate physical healing (a day of healing in an hour)
o-- deep guided meditations that channel ki to heal those mediating physically
...and so on.
Anyway - please consider this option. I think it's more fun than wands of cure light wounds and a lot less immersion breaking than heading back to town in the middle of an adventure.
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I actually support this idea as a foundation for handling out-of-combat healing. Because they're rituals, they're doable by any class with the appropriate skill ranks, which means it bypasses class requirements for healing needs, and it's flavorful and thematic. You could even simply make "Cast a healing ritual" an exploration activity that has its own hazards, but can be boosted by any allies that decide to take part.
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This or something like it would be a great addition.
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I love these! I really would like to see a form of healing that is consistant and open to all classes, and rituals are a new(er) thing that could use some expansion. I'd certainly houserule something similar into my games if they dont actualy become a thing.
I imagine also an arcana based one using alchemy FMA style, and a religion based "faith healing" prayer circle would also be appropriate
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I think these would be a fantastic addition to a much-expanded healing toolkit.
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One hour healing rituals would be a great solution for non-resonance, non-spell slot healing. After all, they are inherently limited by the fact that you need to get 8 hours of rest, so you can't just spam them.
It's even more aesthetically satisfying to convert GP to HP via "ritual components" than "magic sticks" and "really needing to hit that DC" would be a good reason for Occult casters (who are otherwise Cha-based) to get some Intelligence.
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I like it. I've actually got a whole list of things I'd like to see changed in the playtest, and the 8 hour minimum on rituals is one of them. Not only do I think it's a good idea to open up a little utility spells and healing spells, but I would love to see some feats that turn your daily preparation into a ritual. So, for example, a wizard can turn their spell preparation into a ritual where they bind metamagic into a prepared spell so that they can cast the metamagic version without adding a somatic action.
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I would like this as well. Not as much as Stamina but I would still enjoy it.
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Why do we not want out of combat healing to be mundane exactly? Because I want that. I'd much rather have conventional first aid fill this role than rituals.
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Why do we not want out of combat healing to be mundane exactly? Because I want that. I'd much rather have conventional first aid fill this role than rituals.
I personally like the idea of the "Healing Ritual" being a combination of multiple things, not just "We cast some magic and everyone regains Xd8 + X HP."
One person casts the ritual, which has a base effect based on the ritual type (Arcane, Divine, Primal, Occult), but other characters can help out, each in a way that ensures that the group is save, and each with additional beneficial effects. Medicine, for example, would bandage wounds and provide additional healing to the final total if successful. Stealth would help to reduce the chance of the group being disrupted while the ritual is being performed. Nature would be utilizing nearby flora/fauna/terrain to help bolster your allies, perhaps removing conditions or, again, restoring additional hit points. You could even keep those "Out of Combat" healing feats for Medicine and Nature, but have them allow you to start a Healing Ritual with those skills as a base.
I want every character involved, with everyone finding ways in-game, and mechanically, to help out during this time. It makes resting an engaging experience for everyone involved, and helps foster the idea of teamwork instead of just having the one healy guy do all the work. You could EVEN go so far as to have CLASSES also have unique mechanics that interact with a Healing ritual (a bard playing music to soothe the party would be a classic example, though that could also just be covered by the Perform skill), but that's a whole other subject.
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So... you spend a chunk of GP to heal small amounts of health if you can succeed at what is likely to be a fairly stiff DC on everyone's behalf?
That's my bad, I just tossed the amount of healing in without giving it a lot of thought. Ideally, a healing ritual of this sort would restore a party to full or near full health. It fails as a Wand of CLW replacement if it doesn't provide meaningful healing.
Why do we not want out of combat healing to be mundane exactly? Because I want that. I'd much rather have conventional first aid fill this role than rituals.
I'm under the impression that it's considered thematic for mundane healing to be significantly weaker than magical healing. Personally, I'd be okay with mundane healing being powered up - if I want verisimilitude I'll run GURPS - but it didn't seem like something that would make the cut. After all, natural healing is still painfully slow and medicine is a bit lackluster until master/legendary proficiency. On this side of that process, I've become biased in favor of the healing ritual concept but functionally first aid would work fine.
One person casts the ritual, which has a base effect based on the ritual type (Arcane, Divine, Primal, Occult), but other characters can help out, each in a way that ensures that the group is save, and each with additional beneficial effects. Medicine, for example, would bandage wounds and provide additional healing to the final total if successful. Stealth would help to reduce the chance of the group being disrupted while the ritual is being performed. Nature would be utilizing nearby flora/fauna/terrain to help bolster your allies, perhaps removing conditions or, again, restoring additional hit points. You could even keep those "Out of Combat" healing feats for Medicine and Nature, but have them allow you to start a Healing Ritual with those skills as a base.
I love this image.
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I strongly support healing rituals in some form. My own preference would be to minimize randomness by removing or reducing the variability of the skill checks while making the healing output more consistent. After all, you're investing serious time here, so it'd feel terrible to flub it! Personally, I think a ritual that restores 1/2 max HP to each character and takes 10 minutes to execute would serve the game well.
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If resonance needs to stay in the game, I'd also support removing resonance from consumables but making the healing ritual take 1 resonance point from each PC who participates.
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I like it. I've actually got a whole list of things I'd like to see changed in the playtest, and the 8 hour minimum on rituals is one of them.
Agreed; it's not at the top of my priority list to complain about, but 8 hours should be the max, not the minimum of a ritual. I've always disliked spells and rituals with multi-day casting times. Unless it's something so powerful that it becomes a narrative arc unto itself, that's way too much time investment and can be annoying to work around.
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I enjoy this idea a ton. It opens up out of combat healing to a wide variety of players, doesn't require them to make a serious investment in "healing" specifically to do it, doesn't devalue true Healers (because they can do in combat healing), it's thematically really cool, and best of all? It brings forward a system that is underutilized right now in rituals.
Just, bravo. Tweak the numbers a bit, but the idea itself is awesome.
Why do we not want out of combat healing to be mundane exactly? Because I want that. I'd much rather have conventional first aid fill this role than rituals.
Because someone beaten to within an inch of their life doesn't recover in a day via mundane means. Real life is full of mundane healing, and it's simply too slow for a game.
Saying "you were dying 2 minutes ago but I applied some bandages and now it's as if nothing happened" is just thematically off. It doesn't work. Marvel Superheoes can't even apply that level of healing to other people, and their technology is so far advanced that it might as well be magic anyway.
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Because someone beaten to within an inch of their life doesn't recover in a day via mundane means. Real life is full of mundane healing, and it's simply too slow for a game.
I think this one may be more of a disagreement on definition of "mundane". If you mean mundane as in realistic, then yes that kind of healing is not possible by mundane means. If you mean mundane as in non-magical, then it shouldn't be a problem. Exceptional abilities in PF1 were explicitly non-magical, but could still do wondrous things that would be physically impossible in the real world, and that's the kind of ability being asked for here.
I'm all for it. I don't really care what form our reliable out of combat healing takes, so long as it exists.
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I think this one may be more of a disagreement on definition of "mundane". If you mean mundane as in realistic, then yes that kind of healing is not possible by mundane means. If you mean mundane as in non-magical, then it shouldn't be a problem. Exceptional abilities in PF1 were explicitly non-magical, but could still do wondrous things that would be physically impossible in the real world, and that's the kind of ability being asked for here.
That's fair. Although, I don't see how "spam healers kits and Medicine" is better than "spam CLW wands".
I mean, if the magic in question is readily accessible to parties without requring a specific class, I don't think it matters a ton what it looks like, so the value of making it mundane is kind of lost on me.
I'm all for it. I don't really care what form our reliable out of combat healing takes, so long as it exists.
Agree totally with that. :)
Although, I don't see how "spam healers kits and Medicine" is better than "spam CLW wands".
It's a little more intuitive, and making medicine the skill tax to do out-of-combat healing makes sense. So I can definitely see the merit in it.
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So... you spend a chunk of GP to heal small amounts of health if you can succeed at what is likely to be a fairly stiff DC on everyone's behalf?
I mean, it's gorgeously thematic, but the way 2E is being set up, you might as well just stop and rest for the day.
Why would the storyteller allow you to? It's not like it's remotely realistic to quit an endeavour after you've not even reached lunch. I'm not sure about you, but the people I play with would refuse such a ploy as being an immersion-killer, and so would GMs, much of the time.
If the rules seemingly force you towards wholly unrealistic behaviour, the rules need to change, or creative solutions need to be brought to bear, assuming that the storyteller was using appropriate challenges, of course.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
10 minutes Feel a bit short for my faste.
I would say 1h for full effect but a feat could drop it to 30 minutes for half effect (if you are concerned about being interrupted).
Maybe it would be scalable based on how long it goes? Like the longer you sit in the drum circle feeling positive vibes, the more you are healed?
Therein lies the rub -- 2E has its own idea of what an appropriate challenge should be.
Took me a minute to realize you meant the playtest. I was thinking back to ADnD... It certainly did have it's own idea of what an appropriate challenge should be!
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I'm in full support of this! I'm one of those GMs fully in the no CLW wands camp. I feel this is a way that both camps can be happy. GMs can still have challenges where the PCs need to protect a stronghold and are getting attacked every 10 or 20 minutes to test their survivability without unlimited out of combat healing while getting rid of the 10 minute adventuring days and still giving those that want to play a healer class a role that can't just be bought by a cheap item.
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Looks like a good addition to me.
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Great idea. Even better than SF Stamina because the theme fits better and does not add rules bloat.
I would just add that there should be a mundane version of this using medicine and some skill feat. So, I just disagree on the not mundane thing. We have a medicine skill after all.
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How about a ritual that has medicine as the primary proficiency? Could be flavored as mundane or magical as desired but in a world of magic one might describe surgery as a sort of ritual.
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This idea is so good. I mean yeah you can heal a lot for several hours of downtime, you can sprinkle the components around so the players can heal when they want and if you feel like they shouldn't use it the materials are a bit rare.
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Logged in specifically to say that this is needed! My group has lagged behind in the playtest, but I can already see that 2e has a worse problem with the 15min adventuring day than 1e. I’m not the biggest fan of CLW wands, but given the choice between that and the 15 min adventuring day, I’ll take my CLW wand thank you. I almost kinda like the concept of resonance in that it at least prevents charisma from being a dump stat. But it restricts healing too much in its current form. This simple addition is a solution to multiple problems (clw wands, 15 min adventuring day, healing without a Cleric in the party, improving rituals, allowing the gm the option to catch the party unhealed as story requires, etc.), it is extremely flavorful and appropriate, and, as noted, has thematic precedent in many fantasy stories and even real world cultures/religions.
Heck, you hear about people in real life performing rituals with herbs, musical instruments, crystals, smoke, cupping, etc. all to heal a subject. This is not just a viable option, it actually now appears as a gaping whole. Why haven’t we been able to do this all along when such rituals are a huge aspect of actual living cultures?
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...but too much healing is like playing with a cheat mode in a video game.
This is a valid concern. But rituals have restrictions that keep them from being too exploited. Their rarity is at least uncommon, they have a material cost, they have a significant casting time, and - best of all in my opinion - they can have interesting failure conditions.
1) Hazards and traps can remain an exciting and potentially impactful part of the game.
Healing does downplay the threat of hazards and traps. It's pretty jarring to see a character simply walk through traps, taking damage freely, because they know they'll be healed to full in a moment. However - cutting back on healing options hasn't really hindered that attitude. Just now, instead of falling back to heal, parties will either spam wands of CLW or retreat back to town for the night.
2) Spell casters would be indirectly nerfed, yet again, because with a lot of out of combat healing, spell slots would be less easily recovered than hit points.
This is another valid point. I find partial spell slot recovery inherently awkward so...not really sure what the solution is. Aside from switching from spell slots to a casting from a mana pool? I'd like that. I don't think rituals make the problem any worse than wands of clw did...but, yes, the spellcasters would be advocating a return to town to rest.
3) When there is an abundance of healing, additional attritional encounters have to be added to keep the challenge up. Often these make no sense and ruin narrative flow. e.g. 5E
I haven't played Fifth Edition so I can't comment on the comparison. But I think the ritual idea offers plenty of opportunities for sensical interruption. If the group starts casting a ritual near the dragon's cave a scouting party of kobolds can start sniping at them. Additionally, encounters could be built in as failure conditions of the rituals.
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Players are going to find ways to heal up out of combat when there are no time constraints. They'll do this with whatever option is the most reliable and has the least impact - they'll use wands of cure light wounds if those are an option or they'll just end up retreating back to camp/town for the day (resulting in 15 minute adventuring days). Oftentimes, in my experience, Game Masters will give them "free" healing items just to keep them from going to town for the night after 15 minutes of adventuring.
If we want to have out of combat healing that is 1) not mundane, 2) not item based, 3) thematic, and 4) disruptable I'd like to propose adding one hour rituals to the game.
I suggested a Healing Circle ritual in another thread and Dire Ursus offered some helpful additions that made me like the idea even more.
I don't think it'd be that hard to add some 1 hour rituals. It'd mix well with the other 1 hour activities currently in the game (identifying items, repairing dents). Imagine Sorcerer is identifying a magic item, the fighter is repairing a dent in his shield and the Rogue is using his esoteric knowledge to create a healing circle to heal his party, each taking 1 hour. That seems to work out nicely.I really like the scene evoked there - a short period of downtime where party members are doing useful things which could be interrupted if the GM decides to challenge them.
Here are some rough examples of what I'm suggesting by One Hour Healing Rituals (and I'm not suggesting these as written - just throwing them out as rough examples).
PRIMAL RITUAL - Ley Healing
Casting - 1 Hour
Cost - Uncommon Herbs worth a total of (whatever is balanced) x spell level
Secondary Casters - 1, Nature or Medicine
Proficiency - expert in Nature
Range - 10 Feet; Targets all creatures within range
You call upon the ley magic laying dormant in the earth and channel its power through sacred herbs to provide healing to those around you. Etc, etc.
Success - Creatures in...
In a recent campaign, we made a pair of gloves-one black glove that could cast inflict light wounds as a command word at will, and a white glove that could cast cure light wounds the same way. As long as we had time out of combat, we could heal fully.
We still had casualties and ran low on resources over time, but never needed a dedicated healer to blow their spells on cure and heal.
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Why do we not want out of combat healing to be mundane exactly? Because I want that. I'd much rather have conventional first aid fill this role than rituals.I personally like the idea of the "Healing Ritual" being a combination of multiple things, not just "We cast some magic and everyone regains Xd8 + X HP."
One person casts the ritual, which has a base effect based on the ritual type (Arcane, Divine, Primal, Occult), but other characters can help out, each in a way that ensures that the group is save, and each with additional beneficial effects. Medicine, for example, would bandage wounds and provide additional healing to the final total if successful. Stealth would help to reduce the chance of the group being disrupted while the ritual is being performed. Nature would be utilizing nearby flora/fauna/terrain to help bolster your allies, perhaps removing conditions or, again, restoring additional hit points. You could even keep those "Out of Combat" healing feats for Medicine and Nature, but have them allow you to start a Healing Ritual with those skills as a base.
I want every character involved, with everyone finding ways in-game, and mechanically, to help out during this time. It makes resting an engaging experience for everyone involved, and helps foster the idea of teamwork instead of just having the one healy guy do all the work. You could EVEN go so far as to have CLASSES also have unique mechanics that interact with a Healing ritual (a bard playing music to soothe the party would be a classic example, though that could also just be covered by the Perform skill), but that's a whole other subject.
THIS IS AWESOME!
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In a recent Pathfinder playtest (part 3), one of our clerics used a total of 2 spell slots. Neither of which was for healing. Nobody died. It boggles my mind how healing is such a problem.That's not to say that it can't be. Our part 1 group has no dedicated healer (we've got an Alchemist and a Bard) but they did OK in Part 1. I'm very interested to see how that works for part 4. Maybe I'll change my mind then.
Perhaps that is dependant on group, character build, and circumstances. In part 1, my character went unconscious all the time and we consumed basically all of BOTH our healers spell slots, entirely on healing spells. And I don't think we were playing inherently badly, we just were taking a crazy amount of damage.
All in all, this design seems to be flawed, in particular, if you want to get back from low hp to near full (just use the ritual more than once - if you have time for one ritual, you have time for another).
As noted, I was just throwing out numbers to get the idea out. The actual mechanics definitely need balancing. It's meant to be an alternative to wand of CLW spam so the intention would be to heal most characters of the appropriate level to full or near full.
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Nature : Heal + remove disease effect (if disease level inferior)
Occultism : Heal + remove curse.
Religion : Heal + effect based on deitis
(I also considered curse removal but that would be redundant with occult)
Arcana : Heal + ... something ?
I like it! I could see Arcana being based on the School. Conjuration could be summoning a healing creature, Necromancy could be siphoning HP from an animal to the group, Transmutation could be accelerating natural healing, etc.
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You could also easily say that expenditure of party resources makes rituals more difficult to cast the more you use them, either by imparting a resonance cost (I know you guys hate it, but it's a way to make the current system work), or by increasing the DC's for the ritual every time the party attempts to use it consecutively. Want to double down on that healing ritual? DCs go up by 2-5, whatever's balanced. If you include critical failure effects for rituals (and I believe they should), that could make performing consecutive healing rituals just as dangerous as performing them in an unsafe dungeon.
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You could also easily say that expenditure of party resources makes rituals more difficult to cast the more you use them, either by imparting a resonance cost (I know you guys hate it, but it's a way to make the current system work), or by increasing the DC's for the ritual every time the party attempts to use it consecutively. Want to double down on that healing ritual? DCs go up by 2-5, whatever's balanced. If you include critical failure effects for rituals (and I believe they should), that could make performing consecutive healing rituals just as dangerous as performing them in an unsafe dungeon.
I feel like "we're going to do it again" is a perfect excuse for a GM to use those random encounter tables that aren't in the game yet but will be.
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You could also easily say that expenditure of party resources makes rituals more difficult to cast the more you use them, either by imparting a resonance cost (I know you guys hate it, but it's a way to make the current system work), or by increasing the DC's for the ritual every time the party attempts to use it consecutively. Want to double down on that healing ritual? DCs go up by 2-5, whatever's balanced. If you include critical failure effects for rituals (and I believe they should), that could make performing consecutive healing rituals just as dangerous as performing them in an unsafe dungeon.I feel like "we're going to do it again" is a perfect excuse for a GM to use those random encounter tables that aren't in the game yet but will be.
*ding ding ding!