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...require attack rolls?
...capable of getting critical hits?
...benefit from weapon specialization?
...risk hitting other squares on a miss like a grenade?
EDIT: Bonus round!
...create burst effects or spread effects?
As far as I can tell from reading the Explode quality.
Yes, since you're targeting a grid square.
No, since grenades can't crit, I would assume like mist AOEs they don't crit.
No(?), just like ignite weapons I'd go with probably no specialization,but I am not sure.
Yes(?), this is a good question. Since you need an attack roll you can miss, but it's not always a bouncy thing that could vere like that. I'd say yes until we get FAQ for otherwise?
Added a bonus question for all those who want extra credit. :P
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...require attack rolls?
...capable of getting critical hits?
...benefit from weapon specialization?
...risk hitting other squares on a miss like a grenade?EDIT: Bonus round!
...create burst effects or spread effects?
1. Yes, you target a grid intersection.
2. Yes. Plasma cannons, for example, have a critical effect. (Can someone point me to a rule saying grenades can't crit?)3. Yes, they are weapons.
4. Probably not. The rules for hitting other squares specifically refer only to thrown weapons.
Bonus:
I'm going to do the foolish thing and apply common sense.
Burst - if it creates an instantaneous effect.
Spread - if it creates a lingering cloud of something (like a smoke grenade).
2. Yes. Plasma cannons, for example, have a critical effect. (Can someone point me to a rule saying grenades can't crit?)
Not sure about this one. While it doesn't explicitly state they can't, what are the rules for it, exactly? You only crit if your attack roll meets or beats the targets EAC/KAC, but are you comparing the roll to the grid intersection or the creature? Who gets critted first? Does a successful reflex save against the AoE ignore the crit effect or not? It has a few unaddressed questions if AoEs can crit. While you can come up with answers yourself, the rules for crits are addressed for the line, burst, and automatic qualities, but not for explode.
Plasma Cannons are AoE that have crit effects, yes, but it wouldn't be the first mistake in this game, either.
2. Yes. Plasma cannons, for example, have a critical effect. (Can someone point me to a rule saying grenades can't crit?)Not sure about this one. While it doesn't explicitly state they can't, what are the rules for it, exactly? You only crit if your attack roll meets or beats the targets EAC/KAC, but are you comparing the roll to the grid intersection or the creature? Who gets critted first? Does a successful reflex save against the AoE ignore the crit effect or not? It has a few unaddressed questions if AoEs can crit. While you can come up with answers yourself, the rules for crits are addressed for the line, burst, and automatic qualities, but not for explode.
Plasma Cannons are AoE that have crit effects, yes, but it wouldn't be the first mistake in this game, either.
They can crit, it say so in the rules for the explode property which is why they have crit affects. If the weapon roles a nat 20 then it crits and applies the crit affect. IF any of the individuals in the AOE make there save then they take half damage and ignore the exta crit affect as well. IF they couldn't crit they would never apply their bonus crit affect.
From the core book page 181 under the expload affect "Each creature within the blast radius takes the listed damage but can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage. If the explode special property has any special effects other than damage, they are negated with a successful saving throw"
2. Yes. Plasma cannons, for example, have a critical effect. (Can someone point me to a rule saying grenades can't crit?)Not sure about this one. While it doesn't explicitly state they can't, what are the rules for it, exactly? You only crit if your attack roll meets or beats the targets EAC/KAC, but are you comparing the roll to the grid intersection or the creature? Who gets critted first? Does a successful reflex save against the AoE ignore the crit effect or not? It has a few unaddressed questions if AoEs can crit. While you can come up with answers yourself, the rules for crits are addressed for the line, burst, and automatic qualities, but not for explode.
Plasma Cannons are AoE that have crit effects, yes, but it wouldn't be the first mistake in this game, either.
They can crit, it say so in the rules for the explode property which is why they have crit affects. If the weapon roles a nat 20 then it crits and applies the crit affect. IF any of the individuals in the AOE make there save then they take half damage and ignore the exta crit affect as well. IF they couldn't crit they would never apply their bonus crit affect.
From the core book page 181 under the expload affect "Each creature within the blast radius takes the listed damage but can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage. If the explode special property has any special effects other than damage, they are negated with a successful saving throw"
I reread the page and it doesn't actually say anything about exploding weapons critting. It says that explode weapons with special properties are negated if they do something other than damage on a successful save, such as stun, entanglement etc.. it also talks about saving throw calculations for weapon crit effects or explosions.
I'm not trying to be difficult, maybe it is saying they can crit and I'm just not seeing it, but if it is it's very unclear. I think this can use some Dev input, because it's not a simple yes or no question. It needs answers for how it exactly interacts with the rules, as I mentioned in my other post.
well my point would be that there would be no crit affect from the Plasma weapons if they could not crit because this specific case requires that the do. Unlike Grenades the Plasma Heavy Weapons have the explode property & a crit affect. This isnt an extra affect listed next to the explode property like grenades its in the crit affect column meaning its requires a crit to happen there for they have to crit. Ive also combed over the tactical rules and nowhere does it say Grenades don't crit. I find it hard to assume they dont when the rules dont call them out as not criting and given the above example explode weapons would have to be able to crit to apply any crit affect listed. Grenades themselves may not have a crit affect, they have special properties that are in addition to their damage that happen if they crit or not. Just because they work differently than regular weapons does not mean that it strips them of their ability to crit. I would think if they were not meant to then it would specifically state so but that would be an exception for them and not the explode property itself.
I'm aware that some weapons with the explode property also have crit effects, but I did say that could just be an error.
My point is that it doesn't mention how crits work for AoEs. They had no problem explaining exactly what they do for the automatic, burst, and line qualities, but there's not a single line of text explaining how they work for explode weapons. If players are coming to Starfinder after playing Pathfinder, rules for this need to be explained, since Pathfinder AoEs never had the ability to crit. This is why I'm not yet convinced.
That's fine, you guys can play the game the way you think it's meant to be played. I'm not trying to stop anyone from doing that. I'm only saying that the game goes out of its way to explicitly state the rulings on how certain types of spells, such as touch, and various weapon qualities, are allowed to crit and how they work while no such thing exists for the explode quality.
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Sounds like a FAQ worthy cause. Hit that FAQ button everybody!
...require attack rolls?
...capable of getting critical hits?
...benefit from weapon specialization?
...risk hitting other squares on a miss like a grenade?EDIT: Bonus round!
...create burst effects or spread effects
Here's another one for you: Deadly Aim can apply to grenades.
Deadly Aim (Combat): When you take the attack or full attack action with weapons (including a Solarian's Solar Manifestation but not spells or other special abilities of any kind), you can take a -2 penalty to your attack rolls. If you do, those attacks deal additional damage equal to half your base attack bonus (minimum 1).
Attacking with a grenade uses the attack or full attack action and is not a special ability. Further, it can be used with other Explode weapons, taking heavy advantage of the fact that they only need to target a square.
Normally I consider Deadly Aim to be a bit of a trap option, because a -2 to hit isn't very worthwhile unless you always have an Envoy around, but if you're only rolling to hit an AC 5 grid intersection...?
...require attack rolls?
...capable of getting critical hits?
...benefit from weapon specialization?
...risk hitting other squares on a miss like a grenade?EDIT: Bonus round!
...create burst effects or spread effects
Here's another one for you: Deadly Aim can apply to grenades.
Deadly Aim (Combat): When you take the attack or full attack action with weapons (including a Solarian's Solar Manifestation but not spells or other special abilities of any kind), you can take a -2 penalty to your attack rolls. If you do, those attacks deal additional damage equal to half your base attack bonus (minimum 1).
Attacking with a grenade uses the attack or full attack action and is not a special ability. Further, it can be used with other Explode weapons, taking heavy advantage of the fact that they only need to target a square.
Normally I consider Deadly Aim to be a bit of a trap option, because a -2 to hit isn't very worthwhile unless you always have an Envoy around, but if you're only rolling to hit an AC 5 grid intersection...?
Any penalties you take for your attack roll also apply to your explosion's save DC.
That of course assumes that there are attack rolls at all. (I imagine that there are.)
I have stumbled across something today going over the rules that should add to this discussion. It would appear that by the rules targeting a grid intersection has nothing to do with the explode property and is rather tied to the act of "throwing" something with the explode property.
Pg. 245 of the core book under Targeting a Grid Intersection: When using a thrown weapon that has an area effect, such as a grenade, you target a specific grid intersection on a tactical battle map, rather than a specific creature. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5.
In addition the missed / scatter rules specifically reference thrown weapons with the explode property, not those shot from weapons.
Given this I would have to conclude that weapons that are not thrown that are shot target AC as normal and don't scatter if missed?
In regards to burst or spread effects the only things that spread are gas grenades and the like so I would believe they would be treated as burst.
anyway It definitely seems to add another wrinkle into all of this.
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If it isn't from this specific online resource, than it's third party, and can't be counted on as reliable. Sites like the Starjammer SRD, while useful, also tend to input their own biased interpretations of the rules into their sites, even going so far as to change the wording or contextual placement of the rules.
It does seem to be accurate in this case, but one must still be cautious when quoting from such sites.
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Explode
Explosives have the explode special property, which lists the amount of damage the explosion deals, the damage type, special effects (with a duration, if necessary), and the radius of the explosion. When you attack with this type of weapon or ammunition, aim at a grid intersection. Each creature within the blast radius takes the listed damage but can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage. If the explode special property has any special effects other than damage, they are negated with a successful saving throw. Some exploding weapons, such as smoke grenades, don’t deal damage, so they don’t include the damage and damage type entries
Pretty sure I'm reading that you aim at a grid intersection in the Explode entry.
So that would make the p245 grid intersection (which is in the Actions in Combat section) very interesting because there it is indeed only thrown weapons with area effects, not explode type weapons.
Okay I Have never seen an AOE that could crit, and I have been playing since second edition D&D ....That's a clue ....Second targets a intersection not every person in range ..so not even going against a person ac to see if it confirms the crit...another clue ...so I'm going with no grenade or explode weapons can crit ...HOWEVER PRETTY SURE THE EFFECTS ON EXPLODE WEAPONS ARN'T CRIT EFFECTS THEY HAPPEN WHENEVER YOU FAIL THE SAVE (I think they just ended up their because that's how the range weapon chart is set up ) ...IF a Incendiary grenade mk2 does 1d6 burn whenever you fail a save the a red star plasma cannon should do a 1d8 burn whenever you fail the save (the one that does wounding throws people off i think... )
my grenade question is if i load them into a grenade launcher do i get to use my heavy weapon specialization to add my level in damage ( I know they can't be specialize in otherwise)
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My grenade question is if i load them into a grenade launcher do i get to use my heavy weapon specialization to add my level in damage ( I know they can't be specialize in otherwise)
Page 59: "Grenades, missiles, and other consumable weapons never add specialization damage, even when you’re using weapons like a cyberbow or grenade launcher."
Does make me wonder where I can get a cyberbow though. :P
So the grid intersection is now taking double weapon damage and has 1d4 burn. Since that is what you rolled the natural 20 against.
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There is nothing in the CRB that specifically disallows weapons with the explode type from critting. I really don't care how such things were handled in other games, Starfinder isn't those games.
I didn't even know this was a thing until recently.
Grenades and explode weapons crit, just as "precision damage" like trick attack also crit, and everything else normally added to damage.
Starfinder simplified this rule as well, move on people.
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Explode weapons can probably be usefully analyzed under the Defining Effects rules on pg 268 of the Core Rulebook.
Whether an effect is created by a class feature, spell, or piece of equipment, it usually has factors such as area, duration, and range that are defined using specific game terms, as well as descriptors that indicate its type of power (and that sometimes affect how it works). The following section describes how effects’ areas, descriptors, durations, ranges, and targets work, and it also gives the mechanical definition of line of effect and line of sight—two factors key to determining whether a character can use a spell or piece of equipment effectively.
Some targeted effects require an attack roll to hit their target. These effects can score critical hits just as weapons can, and when they do, they deal double damage on a critical hit.
If a non-weapon piece of equipment did what explode weapons do, it would be able to crit. So explode weapons can crit. You target a square intersection, and if you crit the damage is doubled (and crit effects trigger) agains those affected by your effect.
But RAW, not RAI, the "target" of an explode weapon is a grid intersection, and the basic criticla hit rules on pg 245 say that "Some weapons inflict a special effect on a target of a critical hit, in addition to dealing double damage." So breithauptclan is half right, everyone takes double damage, but only the grid intersection is burning.
I assume the next FAQ in 2022 will address this.
...require attack rolls?
...capable of getting critical hits?
...benefit from weapon specialization?
...risk hitting other squares on a miss like a grenade?EDIT: Bonus round!
...create burst effects or spread effects?
1). Yes. They target a grid intersection. (CRB 181)
2). Yes. There are no rules which state that a weapon or ammunition with the explode property can not be a critical hit. On a separate note, it should be remembered that the Explode special property allows for a Reflex saving throw which reduces damage taken and negates any special properties from being applied. Critical effects from a ranged weapon apply to all creatures caught in the radius of the explosion. All of them are considered valid targets.3). Yes. Nothing prohibits weapon specialization from applying to the damage of the attack.
4). No. The rules for missing with a thrown weapon do not apply to a ranged weapon with the Explode property. (CRB 245).
Bonus Round:
I am unsure what is being asked. What kind of 'burst' effects? Same question for 'spread' effects.
4). No. The rules for missing with a thrown weapon do not apply to a ranged weapon with the Explode property. (CRB 245).
Good call. I was doing that one wrong.
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I usually don't care for Raising dead threads, but for those like me that are searching for Criting with grenades, there has been errata. :)
Explosives have the explode special property, which lists the amount of damage the explosion deals, the damage type, special effects (with a duration, if necessary), and the radius of the explosion. When you attack with this type of weapon or ammunition, aim at a grid intersection. Each creature within the blast radius takes the listed damage but can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage. If the explode special property has any special effects other than damage, they are negated with a successful saving throw. If you score a critical hit, it applies only to the creature closest to the targeted intersection (you choose the creature if several are equally close). Some exploding weapons, such as smoke grenades, don’t deal damage, so they don’t include the damage and damage type entries.
Grenades can now crit!
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Apologies for the necro, but can we receive clarification as to whether missing on a ranged attack to hit a grid intersection with a non-thrown weapon effectively negates all effects from the attack?
Chatting with many in the community, I believe lots of GMs and players assume missing an attack targeting a grid intersection with any weapon (and not just a thrown weapon) will cause the effect to take place in a different intersection per the thrown weapon miss rules. However there appears to not be any official rule for doing so.
When an attack to hit AC 5 with a non-thrown weapon misses, (currently) it should produce no effect.
Can we receive official clarification that this is in fact the case?
Thanks and apologies for the necro.