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In a few scenario's I've run, i've had creatures with non-basic templates, and in the most recent- I had players inquire as to how a certain baddie was doing what she was doing after an identifying roll.
That said, i was running Beggar's Pearl, and the baddie has the Nightmare Template, and when the players tried to identify her, i told them "gaunt elven humanoid" when the scenario described her as being heavily garbed to hide her features- especially her nightmare features.
Likewise, in Among the Dead, my PC's were wondering how the "half-starved humanoids" with the Fortune-Spurned template were doing what they were doing with their Calamitous Mishap ability.
So, simple question- is there a DC to identify a creature's template? I've always thought that Templates were beyond the scope of a simple glancing examination, and thus didn't disclose the templates.
Templates are a game mechanic that is used to create a wide variety of creatures without having to have individual write ups for each. You identify them the same way you would any other monster except the relevant skill may be different. For example you would use knowledge planes to identify a fiendish animal instead of knowledge nature.
The problem is that the knowledge check rules for identifying a creature are too vague. "A useful bit of information" varies greatly from GM to GM, and creatures with many abilities could require rolls in the high 90s to get most of the information.
Addressing the Knowledge checks would have made a good blog post, but the negativity of forum readers in response seems to have mostly killed that kind of posting.
Adding a template seems to be a good enough reason to increase the rarity by one or two steps.
Adding a template seems to be a good enough reason to increase the rarity by one or two steps.
Depends on the template. Remember that "young" is a template.
I, personally, have no difficulty identifying a tiger cub, as distinct from a tiger.
I suppose that it would depend on template. Half dragon or half celestial should at least give some clues. Should you read off all the template, no, but would the characters be able to notice that those critters look like some kind of wolf dragon hybrid...
If encounters are survived, and there are facilities available for research, and the party goes the extra distance, yes, they should be able to find something out.
Fortune Spurned might well be picked up by Knowledge Religion as a known curse. Your nightmare elf might well be recognized by Religion or Arcana, but she is going to some length to DISGUISE herself, so there is at least an appose day check in their.
If you are trying not to say that your players are referencing the rules in-game for an inappropriate advantage, misleading them to their detriment is always an option.
Adding a template seems to be a good enough reason to increase the rarity by one or two steps.Depends on the template. Remember that "young" is a template.
I, personally, have no difficulty identifying a tiger cub, as distinct from a tiger.
...depending on the template.
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...depending on the template.Adding a template seems to be a good enough reason to increase the rarity by one or two steps.Depends on the template. Remember that "young" is a template.
I, personally, have no difficulty identifying a tiger cub, as distinct from a tiger.
That's why i specified "non-basic" Templates. Advanced, Young, Simple, etc don't change the basic creature type.
Nightmare and Fortun-Spurned Templates give different abilities that shouldn't be easy to identify right off the cuff.
When you identify a creature you should be gaining useful information. For the most part it will not include things that are strictly game mechanics. So instead of telling the character they are facing a nightmare creature tell them that the creature they are fighting is linked to the dimension of dreams. For the fortune spurned creature I would simply tell them the creature is cursed. Give them clues to what they are facing, not the complete stat block of the creature. In some cases they name of the template may be useful. I could see being able to identifying that the wolf you are fighting is a fiendish wolf. I would probably still phrase it as something else. Maybe a demon wolf or hell wolf.
When you identify a creature you should be gaining useful information. For the most part it will not include things that are strictly game mechanics. So instead of telling the character they are facing a nightmare creature tell them that the creature they are fighting is linked to the dimension of dreams. For the fortune spurned creature I would simply tell them the creature is cursed. Give them clues to what they are facing, not the complete stat block of the creature. In some cases they name of the template may be useful. I could see being able to identifying that the wolf you are fighting is a fiendish wolf. I would probably still phrase it as something else. Maybe a demon wolf or hell wolf.
Yes, but a lot of templates are useful information. I mentioned earlier the Young template, but I would also add to that (nonexhaustively)
* Arctic
* Clockwork
* Exoskeleton
* Lycanthrope
* Vampire
and even
* FIendish
* Celestial
In fact, I'd probably argue that anything common enough and general enough to exist as a template instead of a one-off creature is probably common enough for in-world adventurers to know about it. I mean, seriously, when we come across a party of former adventurers who have all been turned into vampires, are we really not supposed to notice the similarity between the vampiric dwarf cleric, the vampiric gnome sorcerer, and the vampiric half-elf fighter?
I think part of the problem is simply bloat -- while it makes sense that vampiric, young, and clockwork exist as concepts and that every adventurer would know that vampires hate garlic, I have a much harder time (personally) with random made up s&*^ that obviously derives from a Paizo writer on deadline and not from myth. (Agathion-invested, anyone?) But in a world where Agathion-invested is a thing, adventurers will know about it.
I am assuming that no one is arguing that a character will automatically identify any template. Some will be easier than others, and most can be made less obvious, like putting skin on a clockwork, or skeletons, or whatever. Templates with no distinctive physical identifiers would need a cue, such as using a distinct ability. Combinations of non-distinct identifiers should help narrow things down.
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So instead of telling the character they are facing a nightmare creature tell them that the creature they are fighting is linked to the dimension of dreams. For the fortune spurned creature I would simply tell them the creature is cursed. Give them clues to what they are facing, not the complete stat block of the creature. In some cases they name of the template may be useful. I could see being able to identifying that the wolf you are fighting is a fiendish wolf. I would probably still phrase it as something else. Maybe a demon wolf or hell wolf.
That seems like extra work for everyone involved. "Fiendish wolf" is probably what a trained expert of the game world, such as a conjurer or summoner, would call the creature in whatever language he speaks. It tells the player immediately how the monster fits into the game and with his character's abilities. If the monster actually has a different established common name in the setting, the GM's information should include that.
Having identified the creature, the GM then gives the player a piece of useful information about the creature, which most likely will be an ability granted by the template that's relevant in the encounter.
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I am assuming that no one is arguing that a character will automatically identify any template.
No more than the character will automatically identify a non-templated monster. Without a successful Knowledge check, the GM should be prepared to describe what the character sees or otherwise perceives and might give conclusions any (reasonable, intelligent, experienced, if the PC justifies those assumptions) inhabitant of the setting might draw from that.
Funny thing about the Young thing though. People in Pathfinder are apparently thicker than a bag of hammers to the point a low level adventurer is unlikely to be able to tell that a red dragon wyrmling is related to a great red wyrm even if they're standing next to each other.
Common sense need not apply to adventurers...
Fortunately, common sense can apply to GMs.
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Adding a template seems to be a good enough reason to increase the rarity by one or two steps.
The Template usually affects the creature's CR. And the DC of a related Knowledge check is affected by the CR of the identified creature.
In addition, the rarity of the creature, affects the DC of the knowledge check. So if this combination of Template+creature is common (like a young tiger), DC should be 5+CR. If this combination is uncommon, DC becomes 10+CR, and rare combinations should be DC 15+CR.
For a unique combination (like a special template created just for this creature), you might only allow a knowledge check regarding the base creature (potentially gaining information that doesn't apply to this particular version of the creature).
The way they run it in APs is that you only roll for the templates knowledge check. Celestial = Planes or Vampire = Religion. It seems very weird to have weird otherworldly combinations that no one has ever done in their life and have adventures be like "Oh yeah that's totally a Dire Alchemically Quickened Iron Skinned Mutant Ogrekin; also it's Drunk (Actual template -1 CR). Yep, I know one when I see one."
So..
You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR, or more. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
(emphasis on "remember" is mine)
and
Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.
So, arguably, totally new creatures introduced in an adventure as creations of the villain have no chance of being "remembered" by the PCs. But could other skills, or just reasoning combined with the study of the appropriate subject, allow for the PC to "figure out" some of the creature? At least basic type and subtype?
Also, it would be useful to look at how the developers use Knowledge checks. Here is what Jason Bulmahn put into his side-project product, "Monster Focus: Ghouls" from Minotaur Games.
DC Information
6 This creature is a ravenous undead known as a ghoul. Unlike other lesser undead, ghouls possess a cunning intelligence. More powerful ghouls are known as ghasts.11 A ghoul can paralyze a creature with a touch, but elves are immune (elves are not immune if it is a ghast).
16 A ghoul’s bite carries a terrible disease that can rot flesh and dull the reflexes. Those who die from it become a ghoul themselves.
22 (Ghast Only): A ghast is surrounded by a horrid stench that can sicken those that draw close to the monstrosity.
It would be nice if some rulebook provided a little guidance on:
- Inherited Templates and Knowledge checks
- Acquired Templates and Knowledge checks
- Simple Templates and Knowledge checks
- Creatures with large numbers of abilities (what constitutes "a bit of useful information")
- "new" creatures and knowledge checks (when should it mean "no chance", or should the GM keep adding +5 for each of more degrees of rarity).
After all that.. as far as a Rules answer is concerned, I don't think there is one. I've quoted the relevant parts, and they just don't address the OP's question. So there is no "official" in-rules answer.
This is, I believe, an area left to GM discretion.. but a lot of GMs would like to have more of a framework to make their decisions from.
Jader7777, if you could cite the specific AP(s) where you saw that, it might help. It might be an AP-specific thing, though, and not generally applicable.
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So.. (emphasis on "remember" is mine)
Not even argueable, that is the case. If a creature is completely new, the PCs don't get a knowledge check to ID it.
That said, you could still let them use Knowledge to remember things that creatures with similar looking traits can do, and then remember some useful infomation about how to combat creatures with similar traits. GMs shouldn't deny knowledge checks entirely, but the players need not be able to ID what the creature is called.
At the very least, the successful DC15+CR check on a completely new creature should inform the players of the creature type (like humanoid or ooze), and any obvious attacks or defenses are free game for questions (like if it's on fire, list any fire resistance or firery attacks...).
Jader7777, if you could cite the specific AP(s) where you saw that, it might help. It might be an AP-specific thing, though, and not generally applicable.
I just looked up the last game where I saw it come up, Fane Of Fangs. Re-reading it I can't seem to find the exact place where I read it.
There's some fiendish rams that teleport into the temple, it says "(Pathfnder RPG Bestiary 2 292, 154; see page 21)" but I just did it the manual way and just applied the simple template to a normal ram. I don't have Beastiary 2 though- but I know I read it somewhere.
Surely there's been a FAQ on this sort of thing?
It doesn't really need an FAQ. GM assesses how rare the creature is, how the template affects that rarity and adds the (adjusted) CR. PLayers who have invested ranks in relevant knowledge skills who make that DC get useful information. It's all right there for you.
Why do some GMs appear to be so reluctant to give out relevant details about critters?
Why do some GMs appear to be so reluctant to give out relevant details about critters?
Well, if the primary challenge in your game is how to defeat the monster of the day, handing out too much info wrecks things. Otherwise, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
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As I've stated many times in these types of discussions, per RAW, a PC encountering a dragon and goblin at the same time, for the first time, would have no way of knowing which would be harder to hit/poison/grapple from a K. check.
From a Knowledge check, perhaps:
While playing the Pathfinder RPG, the Game Master describes the events that occur in the game world and the players take turns describing what their characters do in response to those events.
A GM whose description of a dragon and a goblin doesn't give the players enough context to respond appropriately is literally by RAW not doing his job.
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I guess there's about three kinds of templates you might run into.
1) Templates that almost completely rewrite the base creature. Stripping out many old abilities. Like skeletons or zombies. These templates tend to give an entirely new CR, not a simple CR +/-X. In a sense, it's more like the original creature adding cosmetic flavor to the template than the other way around. A skeleton T-Rex is more like a skeleton than a T-Rex.
2) Templates that turn the creature into a fairly natural variant of the same thing. Giant, young, advanced. Arguably also the very common Celestial and Fiendish templates.
3) Templates that do something weird to the creature, making it quite distinct from the original but not overwriting it quite like #1. Half-dragon, nightmare, tenebrous etcetera.
In the case of #1 I'd go with a regular knowledge check based on the new CR and type.
In the case of #2 I'd probably consider the template as a single "bit of useful knowledge".
In the case of #3 the creature probably promotes to "quite rare" for a +5 on the identification DC, but the properties of the template can also be guessed at. If the players are already familiar with the template (themed adventures...) then just downgrade it to being a simple chunk of useful info and no extra DC. "This is a flail snail, and like everything else you've run into today, it's also a half-black-dragon".
I'd add a penalty of +10 to +25 to the DC for identifying rare or unique creatures. If players beat the DC to identify a normal version of the creature, then that is what they learn, but not the template information.
Also, that information could be completely unknowable without a prior encounter with said creature.
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I like the idea of "quite rare/difficult to recall" of increased DC.
When i ran Below the Silver Tarn, the PC's encountered enemies with the Manimal template, and they were unique enemies the scenario- Tarnspawn were demonically-"enhanced" EELS.
These things had arms and legs, and had no similarities to it's "base monster."
When the PC tried to identify it, i simply told him that he had no recollection of a beast of this type. [The monsters themselves didn't have unique abilities that made them difficult.]
The Half-Fiend [Huge] Water Elemental with Bull Rush Strike at the end however...
Thanks for the insight everyone.
a PC encountering a dragon and goblin at the same time, for the first time, would have no way of knowing which would be harder to hit/poison/grapple from a K. check. That's fundamentally broken.
In Pathfinder, the goblin could be a level 20 barbarian.
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a PC encountering a dragon and goblin at the same time, for the first time, would have no way of knowing which would be harder to hit/poison/grapple from a K. check. That's fundamentally broken.In Pathfinder, the goblin could be a level 20 barbarian.
Player- "Why is that goblin using two others as improvised weapons?"
GM- "Who said they're being used as improvised weapons?"