Readied actions: swift, move or free after standard


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What is the ruling for actions after your readied action? Let's say I prepare a readied standard action to attack an enemy as soon as he tries to move. After my standard action goes through do I then get to use all of my other actions such as move, swift and free? What am I allowed to do?

Sovereign Court

You can't.

PRD wrote:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Also somewhat important:
PRD wrote:
Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.

So if you decide to take a free action to talk, you took an action and cannot use your readied action.


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Firebug wrote:
You can't.
PRD wrote:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Also somewhat important:
PRD wrote:
Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
So if you decide to take a free action to talk, you took an action and cannot use your readied action.

This super strict reading of the rules is destructive to the game. Of course you can talk, breathe, make a saving throw, or an attack of opportunity. I am sure there are other examples of things you can do as well.

As your original turn is over, you could not take swift or move actions. You could take immediate actions with no loss to your readied action unless the result of the immediate action somehow invalidates your readied action.


Hmm let me give a direct example then you are playing and investigator and you have an opponent studied. Your turn comes up again and you decide to ready an attack action (standard) to strike your opponent if they start casting a spell. On their turn they begin casting a spell so your readied action occurs. You manage to successfully hit them so you decide you want apply your studied strike damage (free action). Is that possible?

Also what does this line mean then if you can't take actions after a readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

This line of text was from the pathfinder srd.

Sovereign Court

Komoda wrote:
This super strict reading of the rules is destructive to the game. Of course you can talk, breathe, make a saving throw, or an attack of opportunity. I am sure there are other examples of things you can do as well.

Breathing is not defined as any type of action. Strawman.

Making a saving throw is not defined as any type of action. Strawman.
Talking is defined as a Free action, and more specifically a special type of free action that you can take when it is not your turn. This is literally a type of action.
PRD wrote:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
And later in the chapter
PRD wrote:
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.

When taking another action normally. Is the ready action the normal procedure or a special initiative action?

Surprising, an Attack of Opportunity is not defined as any type of action. Strawman.
Komoda wrote:
You could take immediate actions with no loss to your readied action unless the result of the immediate action somehow invalidates your readied action.
PRD wrote:
Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.

And immediate action is a specific type of action, it would invalidate a readied action.

The only "actions" that don't invalidate a readied action are "No actions" because they are not actions, and "not defined as actions"... because they are not actions.

Bronsonfu wrote:

... You manage to successfully hit them so you decide you want apply your studied strike damage (free action). Is that possible?

Also what does this line mean then if you can't take actions after a readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

This line of text was from the pathfinder srd.

Can you apply studied strike when its not your turn, say on an opportunity attack? The key issue is that the only free action that is defined as being able to occur when it is not your turn is talking.

The 5' step rule you mentioned specifically says it can be used with a readied action, so is an exception to the rule that taking any action inviolates the readied action.

If you want to run your game differently, play how its fun for you and your players. But I am quoting rules text and you are just telling us how you think it should be played.


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Firebug wrote:
You can't.
PRD wrote:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Also somewhat important:
PRD wrote:
Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
So if you decide to take a free action to talk, you took an action and cannot use your readied action.

I've seen a lot a rage-inducing, ludicrous, slavish readings of RAW on these boards, but this one has got to take the cake.

Yes, this is "technically" correct. If you ever find yourself playing with this kind of GM, take your dice and go home.

As to the heart of your question, OP, no, you can't finish taking the rest of your turn after you take a readied action. That would be holding your turn (which is often a good tactic, but doesn't give you the ability to instantly respond to something the way that a readied action can.)

Scarab Sages

Things like grab and trip have an FAQ specifying that they can be done off turn.

That should probably extend to anything that is an action conditional on another action, when the triggering action occurs off turn (such as delivering Studied Strike). We'll have to wait and see the actual errata for those who want the strictest interpretation of the rules.

And for what it's worth, saying that speaking causes you to lose your readied action is ridiculous, even if it is technicially in line with the rules text.


The question posed is what can you do after your readied action has been triggered, not what you can do before.


Firebug wrote:
You can't.
PRD wrote:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Also somewhat important:
PRD wrote:
Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
So if you decide to take a free action to talk, you took an action and cannot use your readied action.

There is nothing in this text that says you lose your readied action if you perform an action of a different type than the one you have readied.

Preparing an action is simply declaring what you will do under certain circumstances. This text states that you tell the GM what you are going to do, you aren't locked into doing only that action to the expense of all other action types.

Walking down a hallway (move action) and readying a standard action to respond to attacks is 100% valid.

To answer the OPs question: you still have all the action options open to you whenever they might occur except a standard action.

Walking down a hallway (move action) on your turn and readying a standard action to respond to attacks is 100% valid.

If no one triggers your readied action, you can't replace the readied action with a different standard action. But immediate actions are most certainly available. And taking an immediate action doesn't negate the readied action being available.

Sovereign Court

Quintain wrote:
PRD wrote:
Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
There is nothing in this text that says you lose your readied action if you perform an action of a different type than the one you have readied.

So, after your next action, you are going to take your readied action that says you that it must be taken before your next action?

Yeah, nothing in the text says you lose the readied action. You just no longer meet the conditions to take the readied action. Is an immediate/free action an action? It certainly is defined as one by the rulebook.

Gulthor wrote:

I've seen a lot a rage-inducing, ludicrous, slavish readings of RAW on these boards, but this one has got to take the cake.

Yes, this is "technically" correct. If you ever find yourself playing with this kind of GM, take your dice and go home.

Take your dice and go home? No. Offer to GM next time.

So... reading the rules, and being correct about RAW by your own words, makes me worse than rage-inducing...

Nah. Like I said before, play the game how you want. You haven't (likely) sat at a table I've GMed so why compare theorycraft in a rules forum to practice?

Frankly what they(authors) should have done was instead of "before your next action" used "before the start of your next turn".


Geez things got a little heated in this board. Anyways thank you firebug you have indeed answered my question as well as everyone else who posted and I really appreciate it.

One last question on the readied action thing. Is is possible to make a swift action into an immediate action? I know that they have the same value in action economy. I'll give you an exact example now.

Playing a monk using Kirin style as well as kirin strike. Have already studied the opponent successfully so I want to now ready a standard action to attack the enemy if they cast a spell. They get their turn and they cast a spell so my readied action occurs and I successfully land the attack. What I really want to do now is apply the affect of kirin strike to gain the extra damage bonus but doing so consumes a swift action (something I don't have as stated in above posts). Could I instead use my immediate to apply the affect of kirin strike?

Is the only way to allow what I'm asking to do is to allow it through house ruling?


Firebug wrote:
Quintain wrote:
PRD wrote:
Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
There is nothing in this text that says you lose your readied action if you perform an action of a different type than the one you have readied.

So, after your next action, you are going to take your readied action that says you that it must be taken before your next action?

Yeah, nothing in the text says you lose the readied action. You just no longer meet the conditions to take the readied action. Is an immediate/free action an action? It certainly is defined as one by the rulebook.

This is one way to read it, but it is a very narrow and strict reading of it. What you should actually be taking away from that sentence is "before your next turn", which would usually be when your next action comes up because most characters don't have immediate actions available to them, and really no one should ever say "talking causes you to lose your readied action" because it leads to silly results.

"I was going to attack you, but now I can't cause I screamed my battle cry before I started my attack."

So, yes, you can read the rules that way, but IMO it lacks understanding of intent. When its possible to read the rules two ways, always take the one that make more logical sense, even if the other way is more legalistically accurate.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
bbangerter wrote:
Firebug wrote:
Quintain wrote:
PRD wrote:
Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
There is nothing in this text that says you lose your readied action if you perform an action of a different type than the one you have readied.

So, after your next action, you are going to take your readied action that says you that it must be taken before your next action?

Yeah, nothing in the text says you lose the readied action. You just no longer meet the conditions to take the readied action. Is an immediate/free action an action? It certainly is defined as one by the rulebook.

This is one way to read it, but it is a very narrow and strict reading of it. What you should actually be taking away from that sentence is "before your next turn", which would usually be when your next action comes up because most characters don't have immediate actions available to them, and really no one should ever say "talking causes you to lose your readied action" because it leads to silly results.

"I was going to attack you, but now I can't cause I screamed my battle cry before I started my attack."

So, yes, you can read the rules that way, but IMO it lacks understanding of intent. When its possible to read the rules two ways, always take the one that make more logical sense, even if the other way is more legalistically accurate.

Unfortunately, there really isn't another way to read it. Talking is a free action, and you can only take your readied action before your next action. Ultimately, talking should probably be reduced to "not an action" because you can basically do it whenever and it wouldn't make this such a weird interaction.


bbangerter wrote:
Firebug wrote:


So, after your next action, you are going to take your readied action that says you that it must be taken before your next action?

Yeah, nothing in the text says you lose the readied action. You just no longer meet the conditions to take the readied action. Is an immediate/free action an action? It certainly is defined as one by the rulebook.

This is one way to read it, but it is a very narrow and strict reading of it. What you should actually be taking away from that sentence is "before your next turn", which would usually be when your next action comes up because most characters don't have immediate actions available to them, and really no one should ever say "talking causes you to lose your readied action" because it leads to silly results.

"I was going to attack you, but now I can't cause I screamed my battle cry before I started my attack."

So, yes, you can read the rules that way, but IMO it lacks understanding of intent. When its possible to read the rules two ways, always take the one that make more logical sense, even if the other way is more legalistically accurate.

Firebug, you are reading without context. Read the first quote you posted and then the second quote. The "action" referenced in the second statement is in reference to your normal action in your next turn.

Reading the rules so as to negate the utility of the readied action is...self-defeating.


Bronsonfu wrote:

...

One last question on the readied action thing. Is is possible to make a swift action into an immediate action? I know that they have the same value in action economy. I'll give you an exact example now.

Playing a monk using Kirin style as well as kirin strike. Have already studied the opponent successfully so I want to now ready a standard action to attack the enemy if they cast a spell. They get their turn and they cast a spell so my readied action occurs and I successfully land the attack. What I really want to do now is apply the affect of kirin strike to gain the extra damage bonus but doing so consumes a swift action (something I don't have as stated in above posts). Could I instead use my immediate to apply the affect of kirin strike?

Is the only way to allow what I'm asking to do is to allow it through house ruling?

By RAW, you can't change a swift action into an immediate action, unless there are specific exceptions.

However, the swift action you are attempting is the identification step, and from there, (as I read it), you apply the damage to any strike regardless of when it happens. You don't have to use a swift action after each time you hit someone.


Quintain wrote:
Bronsonfu wrote:

...

One last question on the readied action thing. Is is possible to make a swift action into an immediate action? I know that they have the same value in action economy. I'll give you an exact example now.

Playing a monk using Kirin style as well as kirin strike. Have already studied the opponent successfully so I want to now ready a standard action to attack the enemy if they cast a spell. They get their turn and they cast a spell so my readied action occurs and I successfully land the attack. What I really want to do now is apply the affect of kirin strike to gain the extra damage bonus but doing so consumes a swift action (something I don't have as stated in above posts). Could I instead use my immediate to apply the affect of kirin strike?

Is the only way to allow what I'm asking to do is to allow it through house ruling?

By RAW, you can't change a swift action into an immediate action, unless there are specific exceptions.

However, the swift action you are attempting is the identification step, and from there, (as I read it), you apply the damage to any strike regardless of when it happens. You don't have to use a swift action after each time you hit someone.

What does that mean exactly? If you were GM how would you rule my question? If we were strictly following RAW then would what I'm asking be possible (apply extea damage after readied action).


It means that once you study your opponent while in the stance and continue to fight him, you apply the extra damage for every attack you make, and you don't have to spend a swift action to do it on your turn.

Liberty's Edge

Bronsonfu wrote:
What is the ruling for actions after your readied action? Let's say I prepare a readied standard action to attack an enemy as soon as he tries to move. After my standard action goes through do I then get to use all of my other actions such as move, swift and free? What am I allowed to do?

After/together with your readied action you can take 1 swift and as many free actions as your GM allow, you can't take a move action unless that was the action you readied.

Note that reading an action is a standard action and you can move during your normal initiative turn before readying the action. You can't move during your normal turn after readying an action as it will call into effect the "anytime before your next action," clause and invalidate the readied action.

Why it work that way:

PRD wrote:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.

As for the above quote, you can't ready a full round worth of actions, you can ready only a single action from that list, but "You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action." and "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."


Diego Rossi wrote:


PRD wrote:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
As for the above quote, you can't ready a full round worth of actions, you can ready only a single action from that list, but "You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action." and "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

Allowing free/swift actions while taking a readied action is debatable.

"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

Normally, you can only take actions during your turn. There would also be no need to call out that a readied action can be used to a ready a free/swift action if you could already take a free/swift actions during any other action type you are taking. Just declare you are readying a move action, don't actually move any distance, then take your free/swift as part of your readied move.

I highly question whether the intent is to allow a character to ready an action and cast a quickened spell as part of that readied action - or activate any other ability that is not a part of their readied action. The intent of readied actions seems to be "Wait for a specific event, and respond to that event in a certain way" and not "respond in a certain way plus any random thing I can squeeze into a free/swift action to boot".


thewastedwalrus wrote:


Unfortunately, there really isn't another way to read it. Talking is a free action, and you can only take your readied action before your next action. Ultimately, talking should probably be reduced to "not an action" because you can basically do it whenever and it wouldn't make this such a weird interaction.

There is when you actually read the entire section on readied actions and note that the very first sentence states:

Quote:


The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.

Before your next turn has begun.

Later the rules state before your next action, but as I noted already, normally your next action would be on your next turn.

So if you take a strict narrow reading of those two sentences they are in conflict with each other - and you can't claim one has more precedence then the other. However, if you read the "before your next action" under the umbrella of before your next turn it is easy to see it should also have said next turn, but less succinct word choice was used... and thus here we are debating it.

Fortunately the rules never have an ambiguity over the word "action".... er wait :)

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


PRD wrote:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
As for the above quote, you can't ready a full round worth of actions, you can ready only a single action from that list, but "You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action." and "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

Allowing free/swift actions while taking a readied action is debatable.

"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

Normally, you can only take actions during your turn. There would also be no need to call out that a readied action can be used to a ready a free/swift action if you could already take a free/swift actions during any other action type you are taking. Just declare you are readying a move action, don't actually move any distance, then take your free/swift as part of your readied move.

I highly question whether the intent is to allow a character to ready an action and cast a quickened spell as part of that readied action - or activate any other ability that is not a part of their readied action. The intent of readied actions seems to be "Wait for a specific event, and respond to that event in a certain way" and not "respond in a certain way plus any random thing I can squeeze into a free/swift action to boot".

There is some part of the rules that say that when you are taking your readied action you aren't acting normally?


Is there some part of the rules that say you can take other actions outside of your turn just because you are taking a readied action? You can normally only take actions during your turn, with a few exceptions: immediate actions, speaking which is called out, and a few others that likewise have an explicit exception in the rules. Readied actions make no such exceptions for any but the action that was specifically readied.

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:

Is there some part of the rules that say you can take other actions outside of your turn just because you are taking a readied action? You can normally only take actions during your turn, with a few exceptions: immediate actions, speaking which is called out, and a few others that likewise have an explicit exception in the rules. Readied actions make no such exceptions for any but the action that was specifically readied.

The rules say very clearly that you can take free actions any time you get an action, and sometime even when not taking one (drawing an arrow to load your bow if you have the feat chain to use it for AoO).

It is a circular argument: you say "the rules say that you can take a free/swift action only with a normal action a readied action isn't a normal action, so you can't it", I say "the rules say that you can take a free/swift action every time you take an action".

RAW you have some argument for swift actions (but RAI the action that you readied complete your turn, it isn't something completely separate). None for free actions.
If we accept your opinion creatures with free riders on attacks (grab or trip are common examples) don't get to use them as that is a free action and can't be taken outside your turn.


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Diego Rossi wrote:


If we accept your opinion creatures with free riders on attacks (grab or trip are common examples) don't get to use them as that is a free action and can't be taken outside your turn.

Oddly enough there is a FAQ devoted to that to make an exception for this case. Indicating that normally you wouldn't have been able to use trip/grab, etc outside of your turn as a free action. (I would have never run it that way, I felt the intent was always as the FAQ set it to).

Which is like the snap shot feat FAQ that says the free action to reload can be made as part of the AoO - again a specific exception to the rules. (Again, I never would have run this differently as the intent to snap shot for me was clear).

Readied actions are not an "extension" of your existing turn. After you take your actions for your turn, including readying an action, your turn is over. This is shown in the ready action text "...after your turn is over...". This is further shown in the additional text "...you interrupt the other character...". Because two characters do not take simultaneous turns, your readied action must, of necessity, happen outside your turn.

As with the above two FAQ's, if the player wanted to take a free action that was somehow associated with the readied action, I'd allow it. But the rules do not currently allow such as it is not the players turn. And I would not allow them to take a free action that was completely separate from the readied action.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
bbangerter wrote:
thewastedwalrus wrote:


Unfortunately, there really isn't another way to read it. Talking is a free action, and you can only take your readied action before your next action. Ultimately, talking should probably be reduced to "not an action" because you can basically do it whenever and it wouldn't make this such a weird interaction.

There is when you actually read the entire section on readied actions and note that the very first sentence states:

Quote:


The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.

Before your next turn has begun.

Later the rules state before your next action, but as I noted already, normally your next action would be on your next turn.

So if you take a strict narrow reading of those two sentences they are in conflict with each other - and you can't claim one has more precedence then the other. However, if you read the "before your next action" under the umbrella of before your next turn it is easy to see it should also have said next turn, but less succinct word choice was used... and thus here we are debating it.

Fortunately the rules never have an ambiguity over the word "action".... er wait :)

They aren't in conflict with each other, they both apply. You can only take your readied action before your next turn and before your next action.


Thank you to those still posting.

I wanted to add some more to the discussion. Here is an excerpt from the pathfinder SRD in the "Ready" action section on the combat page.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat

Initiative Consequences of Readying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

Considering readying an action puts you further back on the initiative order (unless you ready an action which triggers on the character's turn immediately after you in the initiative order) wouldn't it make sense that you could take a swift or free action once your readied action goes through? I guess the way I'm thinking of it is that when you ready an action, you are setting yourself back in the initiative for the benefit of thinking ahead. For example, disrupting an enemy (ready a ranged attack if an enemy within range begins casting a spell) or making sure you have an ally covered (ready breath of life if your adjacent ally falls unconscious from taking too much damage).

It seems appropriate that you could follow this with a swift and/or free action afterwards, especially when the action is a reasonable follow up to what you just did with your readied action. For example, after my ranged attack with a crossbow or bow, I reload as a swift or free action. In the case of my previous monk example, my readied action against my studied opponent has occurred and I hit the enemy. It would seem reasonable to follow up that attack with the effect of kirin strike as a swift action.

It seems to me that you should be allowed or it should be considered that the rest of your turn happens after your readied action occurs (assuming that you didn't already use a swift action/free action before you readied your standard action when it was your turn [no casting a swift magic missile then readied action then another swift action for example]).


thewastedwalrus wrote:


They aren't in conflict with each other, they both apply. You can only take your readied action before your next turn and before your next action.

So you can't reload your heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm to be used as a readied action, if you shot it last round?

Seems a bit overtly...restrictive.

Quote:


It seems to me that you should be allowed or it should be considered that the rest of your turn happens after your readied action occurs (assuming that you didn't already use a swift action/free action before you readied your standard action when it was your turn [no casting a swift magic missile then readied action then another swift action for example]).

Even by the overtly restrictive interpretation of our compatriots above, you are absolutely correct. You get the rest of your turn, just on a new initiative, after your readied action occurs.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Quintain wrote:
thewastedwalrus wrote:


They aren't in conflict with each other, they both apply. You can only take your readied action before your next turn and before your next action.

So you can't reload your heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm to be used as a readied action, if you shot it last round?

Seems a bit overtly...restrictive.

Quote:


It seems to me that you should be allowed or it should be considered that the rest of your turn happens after your readied action occurs (assuming that you didn't already use a swift action/free action before you readied your standard action when it was your turn [no casting a swift magic missile then readied action then another swift action for example]).

Even by the overtly restrictive interpretation of our compatriots above, you are absolutely correct. You get the rest of your turn, just on a new initiative, after your readied action occurs.

Why couldn't you? You'd just reload and then setup for your readied action. You might have some trouble with reloading unless you can get it down to at least a move action.

Also, "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over" is pretty clear that your turn is over and you do not get the rest of your turn on top of the readied action. That would be much more akin to delaying whereas ready is for the interruption of another's actions.


Action economy says that you get one move action and one standard action.

If your ammo is expended, and you ready a standard action for the next round, you can't use a move action before your readied standard to reload. So, at best you can only ready an action with a heavy Crossbow and rapid reload every other round.

However, under my interpretation you can use your move action just prior to your readied action to fire with it. Easy peasy.


thewastedwalrus wrote:


They aren't in conflict with each other, they both apply. You can only take your readied action before your next turn and before your next action.

My comments to you were to show that there is more than one way to read it. The way you have here is one way (wrong IMO as it leads to some rather silly results - can't talk till after my readied action), but it is still one way to read it, but my main point, it is not the only way.

Bronsonfu wrote:


It would seem reasonable to follow up that attack with the effect of kirin strike as a swift action.

This I'd personally allow as the kirin strike is really part of making your attack (much like the free action trips, grabs, etc in the FAQ mentioned previously) - but for kirin strike I'd treat it like an immediate action, where it consumes your up coming swift. The rules however do not allow this though as you can't take swift actions outside of your turn.

Quintain wrote:


So, at best you can only ready an action with a heavy Crossbow and rapid reload every other round.

I'm not following you on this Quintain, and I don't think thewastedwalrus is saying this either. He is saying:

If you don't use your readied action before you take another action (such as an immediate or free that is allowed outside of turn) or before your next turn starts, then you lose the readied. But whether you use it or not, on your next actual turn you'd have your full actions - move to reload, standard to ready.


bbangerter wrote:

I'm not following you on this Quintain, and I don't think thewastedwalrus is saying this either. He is saying:

If you don't use your readied action before you take another action (such as an immediate or free that is allowed outside of turn) or before your next turn starts, then you lose the readied. But whether you use it or not, on your next actual turn you'd have your full actions - move to reload, standard to ready.

Ah, ok, my misreading of what he is saying. And, I agree.

However, what I am saying is that normally with rapid reload/heavy crossbow, you can attack 1x per round due to action economy. The restrictive reading of readied action means that you can only successfully use a readied action once every other round.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Quintain wrote:
bbangerter wrote:

I'm not following you on this Quintain, and I don't think thewastedwalrus is saying this either. He is saying:

If you don't use your readied action before you take another action (such as an immediate or free that is allowed outside of turn) or before your next turn starts, then you lose the readied. But whether you use it or not, on your next actual turn you'd have your full actions - move to reload, standard to ready.

Ah, ok, my misreading of what he is saying. And, I agree.

However, what I am saying is that normally with rapid reload/heavy crossbow, you can attack 1x per round due to action economy. The restrictive reading of readied action means that you can only successfully use a readied action once every other round.

Hmm, I still don't see why you could only ready an action every other round; you should be able to:

1st round - Ready to attack, then attack as prompted
2nd round(new initiative) - reload(move), ready to attack(standard)

You do lose some time in-between round 1 and 2, but that's just a consequence of readying an action. Also +1 for understanding :)

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


If we accept your opinion creatures with free riders on attacks (grab or trip are common examples) don't get to use them as that is a free action and can't be taken outside your turn.

Oddly enough there is a FAQ devoted to that to make an exception for this case. Indicating that normally you wouldn't have been able to use trip/grab, etc outside of your turn as a free action. (I would have never run it that way, I felt the intent was always as the FAQ set it to).

Which is like the snap shot feat FAQ that says the free action to reload can be made as part of the AoO - again a specific exception to the rules. (Again, I never would have run this differently as the intent to snap shot for me was clear).

Readied actions are not an "extension" of your existing turn. After you take your actions for your turn, including readying an action, your turn is over. This is shown in the ready action text "...after your turn is over...". This is further shown in the additional text "...you interrupt the other character...". Because two characters do not take simultaneous turns, your readied action must, of necessity, happen outside your turn.

As with the above two FAQ's, if the player wanted to take a free action that was somehow associated with the readied action, I'd allow it. But the rules do not currently allow such as it is not the players turn. And I would not allow them to take a free action that was completely separate from the readied action.

FAQ wrote:

Free Actions: Can you take free actions during an attack of opportunity? For instance, can you use the Grab, Trip, Pull, or Push universal monster rules after hitting with an attack of opportunity, since they require free actions and free actions can’t be used off-turn? What about Rock Catching? That seems like it could only work off-turn.

While you can’t take most free actions off your turn, Grab, Trip, Pull, Push, and Rock Catching’s free actions can all be used off-turn. This will be reflected in future errata.

You consider that list exhaustive?

Or maybe the exceptions that continue to crop up (like that for the snap shot feat) show that "you can't take free action mean "you can't take free action by themselves off turn, but you can take them together with other actions"?

Tu be clear, there is no rule that say "you can't take free action off turn", there is a rule that say:
"Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action."
and implies that you normally can't take other free actions, but then there is a rule that say: "Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."
A very clear permission to take free action together with other actions.

Liberty's Edge

Quintain wrote:

Action economy says that you get one move action and one standard action.

If your ammo is expended, and you ready a standard action for the next round, you can't use a move action before your readied standard to reload. So, at best you can only ready an action with a heavy Crossbow and rapid reload every other round.

However, under my interpretation you can use your move action just prior to your readied action to fire with it. Easy peasy.

You take your move action at your initiative and reload the crossbow, then you ready your attack.


Diego Rossi wrote:


You consider that list exhaustive?

I don't personally, which is why I would allow kirin strike, even as a swift action.

Would you allow me to drop prone as part of my snap shot attack? Would you allow me, with rapid reload, to reload a crossbow as part of casting a spell as a readied action? Which you allow me to drop an item as part of counter spelling an enemy? Or after having braced against a charge?

Whether or not you ignore or respond to the rest of my post, I'd like your response to the above questions.

Diego Rossi wrote:


Tu be clear, there is no rule that say "you can't take free action off turn"

EDIT: There is actually, not in the PRD but in the the grab, trip, push, pull FAQ. "While you can’t take most free actions off your turn" END OF EDIT.

There also are no rules that say "you can't take standard actions off turn, or move actions off turn".

What the rule is is this

Quote:


During one turn, there are a wide variety of actions that your character can perform, from swinging a sword to casting a spell.

followed by

Quote:


There are six types of actions:

Standard
Move
Full-round
Swift
Immediate
Free

Are you suggesting that since there is no rule saying I can't take standard actions off turn that I can? Can you find a me a rule that says free actions work differently?

The specific text for immediate actions, and speaking are exceptions to the general rule. The various other abilities that have that specific text show the exception to the rule. The numerous FAQs from those already listed, to things like the summoner/eidolon life link being errata'd to a non-action from a free action show the rule.

While it is true that there is no rule that says you can't take free actions outside of your turn, the need for all these explicit exceptions is proof - they are the exceptions that prove the rule "you can't take free actions outside of your turn".

I'm sure you'll refer back to "Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

All that rule means is this:
You can take free actions any time during your turn. Before, during, or after your other actions. Can you make a full attack with thrown weapons and quick draw and make more attacks than you have physical hands? Yes, because you can use free actions to draw weapons and keep throwing them even though you are in the middle of your full attack. Same with a multi bow attack. You can't normally use a move action in the middle of your full-attack, or use a standard in the middle of your move - but you can use a free action in the middle of either.

"...while taking another action normally." Can you point to any places in the rules where you wouldn't be able to take free actions while taking other actions? Because there must be some if normally you can, but sometimes you can't.

But lets also take another closer look at the grab, trip, etc FAQ response.

Quote:


While you can’t take most free actions off your turn...

It does not say "(unless you are taking an immediate or readied action)", it says can't take free actions off your turn, end of story (although here are 5 exceptions). This is so significant that the FAQ ends with.

Quote:


This will be reflected in future errata.

It also doesn't say you can drop prone while making the attack that grants the free grab, trip, push, pull. It is a very specific list (and as I've talked about above I'd allow anything that would normally be part of the readied action, such as kirin strike on an attack). But the FAQ does not say take any free actions you want. So I don't think the list is exhaustive, it is also not an infinite list. Do you think the list is open ended to anything and everything that is a free action?

Liberty's Edge

As I already said, it is a circular argument. You say "you can take free actions only during your turn". I say "you can take free actions every time you take an action".
Both positions have rule support. You are inferring something from other rules, I am inferring something different.

You even cited the rule:
"EDIT: There is actually, not in the PRD but in the the grab, trip, push, pull FAQ. "While you can’t take most free actions off your turn" END OF EDIT."
You read "most" as any unless specified, but the two FAQ show that instead there is a good number of free actions that while not cited in the CRB or Bestiary ass something that can be doe off turn are allowed when taking another action.

Without further inflammations from the Devs we can't get a definitive conclusion as both position have rule support and both positions are based on inferring something from the FAQs and other parts of the rules.


You didn't answer the one part I specifically I asked you to. I'll ask again:

"Would you allow me to drop prone as part of my snap shot attack? Would you allow me, with rapid reload, to reload a crossbow as part of casting a spell as a readied action? [Would] you allow me to drop an item as part of counter spelling an enemy? Or after having braced against a charge?"

But let's even go a step further. Since speaking is an action, would you allow me to drop prone during speaking outside of my turn? Or does speaking somehow not fall under the "...while taking another action normally" clause? If not, why not?

So yes the FAQ's show that in some cases it is allowed, but in every instance the free action is related to another action being taken. Note that it isn't that you can take those free actions ANY time you take another action. It is you can take those free actions under very specific circumstances. Rock catching isn't even you taking an action that triggers the rock catching ability, it is someone else taking an action to throw a rock at you.

Maybe we are just talking past each other though. Do you believe free actions related to a readied action should be allowed? (I do). Do you believe free actions not related to the readied action should be allowed? (I don't). I'm trying to understand where you draw the line, or if you draw a line at all, on what free actions are allowed outside of turn, and under what circumstances.


bbangerter wrote:
Maybe we are just talking past each other though. Do you believe free actions related to a readied action should be allowed? (I do). Do you believe free actions not related to the readied action should be allowed? (I don't). I'm trying to understand where you draw the line, or if you draw a line at all, on what free actions are allowed outside of turn, and under what circumstances.

I think that's a reasonable reading of the rules. I also allow players to specify a free action they will take along with the readied action, like "I ready an action to start rage and hit him if he moves" or "I ready an action to hit him if he starts casting a spell, and I will take a five foot step if necessary (assuming I haven't otherwise moved this turn)."

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:

You didn't answer the one part I specifically I asked you to. I'll ask again:

"Would you allow me to drop prone as part of my snap shot attack? Would you allow me, with rapid reload, to reload a crossbow as part of casting a spell as a readied action? [Would] you allow me to drop an item as part of counter spelling an enemy? Or after having braced against a charge?"

But let's even go a step further. Since speaking is an action, would you allow me to drop prone during speaking outside of my turn? Or does speaking somehow not fall under the "...while taking another action normally" clause? If not, why not?

So yes the FAQ's show that in some cases it is allowed, but in every instance the free action is related to another action being taken. Note that it isn't that you can take those free actions ANY time you take another action. It is you can take those free actions under very specific circumstances. Rock catching isn't even you taking an action that triggers the rock catching ability, it is someone else taking an action to throw a rock at you.

Maybe we are just talking past each other though. Do you believe free actions related to a readied action should be allowed? (I do). Do you believe free actions not related to the readied action should be allowed? (I don't). I'm trying to understand where you draw the line, or if you draw a line at all, on what free actions are allowed outside of turn, and under what circumstances.

Drop prone as part of Snap shot: it is an AoO, not an action. Generally you don't get free actions together with AoO. Loading a ranged weapon as a free action after using it or drawing a new throwing weapon as a free action is a reasonable exception.

Casting a spell & reloading as a free action: why you have not done that when reading the action? Forgetfulness? Yes, I would allow it.

Drop a item when counterspelling: you were able to counterspell without dropping it? If so, yes. If you need to free your hands, no, because you can't take your readied action.

Dropping a item after bracing: AFAIK there aren't bracing weapons that aren't 2 handed weapon, you can drop a item you have in your hand. I don't see how you would do this.
Note that bracing is not attacking the guy that is charging you, that come when he charge and is resolved after your bracing.
If your question is "can I drop a weapon after using it in a readied attack?" I would say yes.

There is a lot of GM leeway, but I don't see any prohibition against taking free and swift actions together with a ready action.


I've always been a bit sketchy on readied actions....


Diego Rossi wrote:


Drop prone as part of Snap shot: it is an AoO, not an action. Generally you don't get free actions together with AoO. Loading a ranged weapon as a free action after using it or drawing a new throwing weapon as a free action is a reasonable exception.

You are the one that brought up both snap shot and the grab, trip, etc FAQ originally, as though they supported your position. Incidentally, the grab, trip, etc FAQ is ALSO about AoO's.

(You didn't specifically call out that FAQ, but you strongly hinted at it with "If we accept your opinion creatures with free riders on attacks (grab or trip are common examples) don't get to use them as that is a free action and can't be taken outside your turn.").

Diego Rossi wrote:


Casting a spell & reloading as a free action: why you have not done that when reading the action? Forgetfulness? Yes, I would allow it.

Does it matter why they forgot? Does it really matter what free action it is? The general rule is that free actions can only be taken on your turn (and I've shown that both by explicit text and by inference). You have to show a rules exception to allow it outside if you want to go by the RAW of it.

Since you've abandoned the AoO/free action as supporting you (you can't claim it supports your position that taking another action allows a free action and simultaneously acknowledge the AoO's are not actually actions). All that you are left with is an extremely ambiguous "you can take free actions while taking another action normally" line.

You are of course always free how to play how you want, and with free actions I don't see it making much of a (if any) difference in most circumstances. But that becomes a GM adjudicated house rule.

Quote:


There is a lot of GM leeway, but I don't see any prohibition against taking free and swift actions together with a ready action.

"The rules don't say I can't, therefore I can" is not a strong argument in any discussion. Nor is the converse, "the rules don't say I can, therefore I can't". But here the rules clearly make a general statement of you can't take free actions outside of your turn. They also clearly state that after you ready an action, the trigger (if it occurs) will be after your turn is over, on someone else's turn. The only time, by RAW, you get to ignore the general rule is when a specific rule overrides it.


Why would you ready a swift action if you can do a swift action during a readied standard action?

Liberty's Edge

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I want to ready an immediate action. :]


You can. The rules allow you to use an immediate action in place of a swift action, using the standard rules for swift actions. (For example, using that turn's swift action, rather than the next's)

So readying an immediate action follows the rules in place for readying swift actions.


Saethori wrote:

You can. The rules allow you to use an immediate action in place of a swift action, using the standard rules for swift actions. (For example, using that turn's swift action, rather than the next's)

So readying an immediate action follows the rules in place for readying swift actions.

I think he was joking. Since you can already perform an Immediate Action at any time, even outside your turn, readying one would just be a waste of a Standard Action.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Why would you ready a swift action if you can do a swift action during a readied standard action?

Indeed. Getting both a standard action and a swift action for a readied action seems at odds with the rules.

Quote:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.

The singular usage, an action, leads me to conclude that the or is the exclusive form. That is, you can can ready one and only one of those three types: standard, move, or swift. I can't see any justification for getting both a standard action and a swift action by readying a standard action.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You can take a 5 ft step as part of a readied action.
It's in the PRD and everything.

Speaking a few words doesn't really count as an action. We generally say 5 words or less is free, any point during the round.
Anyone who says you gave up your readied action because you spoke a couple of words is hitting the bottle a bit too hard, imo.

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Drop prone as part of Snap shot: it is an AoO, not an action. Generally you don't get free actions together with AoO. Loading a ranged weapon as a free action after using it or drawing a new throwing weapon as a free action is a reasonable exception.

You are the one that brought up both snap shot and the grab, trip, etc FAQ originally, as though they supported your position. Incidentally, the grab, trip, etc FAQ is ALSO about AoO's.

(You didn't specifically call out that FAQ, but you strongly hinted at it with "If we accept your opinion creatures with free riders on attacks (grab or trip are common examples) don't get to use them as that is a free action and can't be taken outside your turn.").

This is what I said, with the part about drawing a arrow bolded. you were the one that moved that to allowing any free action.

Diego Rossi wrote:


The rules say very clearly that you can take free actions any time you get an action, and sometime even when not taking one (drawing an arrow to load your bow if you have the feat chain to use it for AoO).
bbangerter wrote:


Diego Rossi wrote:


Casting a spell & reloading as a free action: why you have not done that when reading the action? Forgetfulness? Yes, I would allow it.

Does it matter why they forgot? Does it really matter what free action it is? The general rule is that free actions can only be taken on your turn (and I've shown that both by explicit text and by inference). You have to show a rules exception to allow it outside if you want to go by the RAW of it.

Since you've abandoned the AoO/free action as supporting you (you can't claim it supports your position that taking another action allows a free action and simultaneously acknowledge the AoO's are not actually actions). All that you are left with is an extremely ambiguous "you can take free actions while taking another action normally" line.

You are of course always free how to play how you want, and with free actions I don't see it making much of a (if any) difference in most circumstances. But that becomes a GM adjudicated house rule.

Quote:


There is a lot of GM leeway, but I don't see any prohibition against taking free and swift actions together with a ready action.
"The rules don't say I can't, therefore I can" is not a strong argument in any discussion. Nor is the converse, "the...

You are convinced that a ready action is totally outside your turn. I have explained why I disagree with you.

We both have some rule support. Neither of us can convince the other. Unless the PDT chime in there is nothing more to say.

Liberty's Edge

Chess Pwn wrote:
Why would you ready a swift action if you can do a swift action during a readied standard action?

Sometime because of the time required to use a specific ability.

If you have a memorized quickened spell you can't cast it as a standard action. Same if you have an ability that is a swift action.
As an example you are a inquisitor that is using the Justice inquisition but for some reason you can't reach your target, you could ready a swift action to change inquisition to Purity if targeted by a spell.
Or a wizard that want to cast magic missile as soon as the incorporeal creature hiding in the wall poke its head out but has only a quickened magic missile.
Both need to ready a swift action to be able to use their ability or spell as a ready action.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Why would you ready a swift action if you can do a swift action during a readied standard action?

Sometime because of the time required to use a specific ability.

If you have a memorized quickened spell you can't cast it as a standard action. Same if you have an ability that is a swift action.
As an example you are a inquisitor that is using the Justice inquisition but for some reason you can't reach your target, you could ready a swift action to change inquisition to Purity if targeted by a spell.
Or a wizard that want to cast magic missile as soon as the incorporeal creature hiding in the wall poke its head out but has only a quickened magic missile.
Both need to ready a swift action to be able to use their ability or spell as a ready action.

Why would you need to ready any of those things (based on your interpretation of the rules). Ready an action to cast another spell, or move, or attack, or any other standard/move action, then cast your swift as part of it since you can take swift actions any time you can take free actions - and since you believe free actions are open ended options during a readied....

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