Heavenly Fire as Detect Evil Problems


Advice


One of my players has the celestial bloodline for his sorcerer, and from level 1 he has used his Heavenly Fire ability as a means of detecting evil, and I find myself in a bit of a pickle.

1.) I house-ruled that the damage isn't fire because it makes no sense for devils to be immune to his celestial powers. The damage is now "holy" damage. We agreed on this, and in our Golarion that's how it is.

2.) He stopped using the fire as much when the damage picked up. It used to be a flesh wound when he only had 1d4+1 damage. Now his minimum damage will kill a commoner, so he has to be more careful.

Truth be told, it's actually pretty cool. He's really grown into this role as the inquisitor for the kingdom (we're playing Kingmaker), and it's pretty badass when he folds his arms and says something like, "If you're who you say you are, submit to my flame. If you are pure of heart, it will actually make you feel better."

Awesome, right?

Except if I want to do something cool with a rakshasha, succubus, doppelganger, etc., I am out of luck.

I'm looking for solutions to this issue outside of the plot. Obviously I can have a heavenly fire blast have dire political ramifications. Obviously I can have the aggrieved evil being have powerful friends, or the good being be insulted at the sorcerer's lack of faith. I CAN do that.

But it would be easier to just add a magic item or something.

Is there something like the helm of undetectable alignment that would protect the suspect from the sorcerer's blazing inquiry? Is there a feat or spell I'm missing?

Thanks.

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The spell corruption resistance gives resistance to alignment-based damage. It's a 2nd-level anti-paladin and inquisitor spell, so fairly easy to get even as a potion (although it should probably be CL 7 at least to get to resist 10 points of damage).


hmmm my advice is :
People with Evil alignment not always are "evil"
it depends on many factors (Black and White Thinking doesn't Work in a Gray World )

for example : to Save village from disease you need kill all sick people cuz there is no cure

so you killed 10 of villagers (5 womens 3 children 2 mans)
it was Evil ?
ofc it was !!
but you saved 1000 others
+

even if this "fire" do no dmg mr random John Smith don't know that and he should be intimidated by this line "If you're who you say you are, submit to my flame.. "

i think you're Holy Inquisitor Sorcerer is Villain here ;D
let his Alignment be checked by Succubus in disguise with some "holy" fire :P

" you want me to submit you your flame ? ok , but me first ! (throw fireball at him) ohhh no! your unclean one !"


Undetectable Alignment Spell wrote:
An undetectable alignment spell conceals the alignment of an object or a creature from all forms of divination.

It's not a big mental leap to have this 2nd level spell work to prevent damage from the Heavenly Fire. Just simply rule that the magic that powers Heavenly Fire cannot properly determine (divine) the target's alignment, so nothing happens (as per Neutral alignments).

Since this guy is already gaining fame as the kingdom's inquisitor and his methods are becoming well-known, it's VERY reasonable that enemies of this kingdom (or anyone trying to break laws in this kingdom) would have heard about the "Step into my flame" inquisition and will take steps to prevent it.

It's just a 2nd level spell and not Personal so it can be made into a 300gp potion fairly easily. Well worth the price for anyone working against this kingdom. Heck, if there is enough naughty behavior and or are enough enemies of the kingdom running around, there might even be a thriving black market for potions of Undetectable Alignment. Taking that a step farther, imagine this: several times the PCs find a "bad guy" that they are certain is an evil enemy of their kingdom and submit him to the Heavenly Fire Inquisition, only to have these guys pass (and even be set free). Don't tell them why, of course. Eventually they find the black market and learn about these potions and realize that many of the people they've set free might have been evildoers using these potions. That will be a scary day for them. And bonus points when those released enemies come back, with new levels and new plots, becoming a secret organization of evil BBEGs working to undermine the PCs.


DM_Blake wrote:
Undetectable Alignment Spell wrote:
An undetectable alignment spell conceals the alignment of an object or a creature from all forms of divination.

It's not a big mental leap to have this 2nd level spell work to prevent damage from the Heavenly Fire. Just simply rule that the magic that powers Heavenly Fire cannot properly determine (divine) the target's alignment, so nothing happens (as per Neutral alignments).

Since this guy is already gaining fame as the kingdom's inquisitor and his methods are becoming well-known, it's VERY reasonable that enemies of this kingdom (or anyone trying to break laws in this kingdom) would have heard about the "Step into my flame" inquisition and will take steps to prevent it.

It's just a 2nd level spell and not Personal so it can be made into a 300gp potion fairly easily. Well worth the price for anyone working against this kingdom. Heck, if there is enough naughty behavior and or are enough enemies of the kingdom running around, there might even be a thriving black market for potions of Undetectable Alignment. Taking that a step farther, imagine this: several times the PCs find a "bad guy" that they are certain is an evil enemy of their kingdom and submit him to the Heavenly Fire Inquisition, only to have these guys pass (and even be set free). Don't tell them why, of course. Eventually they find the black market and learn about these potions and realize that many of the people they've set free might have been evildoers using these potions. That will be a scary day for them. And bonus points when those released enemies come back, with new levels and new plots, becoming a secret organization of evil BBEGs working to undermine the PCs.

All it takes is the arcane caster to Detect Magic, Spellcraft, and knowledge Arcana to see these people all somehow have the exact same Abjuration auras on them. Then you've created a Reign of Terror.


Heretek wrote:
All it takes is the arcane caster to Detect Magic, Spellcraft, and knowledge Arcana to see these people all somehow have the exact same Abjuration auras on them. Then you've created a Reign of Terror.

Wait until the Kingdom has a chapter of the ACLU (well, maybe we have to replace the "A" with something more appropriate to this kingdom) that prevents the totalitarian regime from using magic to compel people to testify against themselves in a court of law (or any other inquisition).

I"m starting to see how this celestial sorcerer with his good alignment is treading into evil waters with his "flaming inquisition" and his "reign of terror" and his "totalitarian regime" - is this becoming a fascist society too? Maybe all of this is going too far and this inquisitor is heading down a slippery slope to alignment change (wait until he gets bat-wings instead of feathery ones...)


Possession plus Hidden Presence is a good option for higher levels. Contingency plus a healing effect. False Life so that the fire only touches temporary hitpoints- or any of the non-spell ways to get temp hp. If he ever merits the challenge, I think it's one mythic rank to get Beyond Morality. Mind-controlled or charmed servants. A neutral shapeshifter who has been paid off by somebody. It's SLA, right? Rakshasas have crazy SR, and can easily pass as Neutral by shrugging it off that way.


First, everyone, thanks for your lightning-fast replies.

PlentaX wrote:

People with Evil alignment not always are "evil"

it depends on many factors

PlentaX,

While I agree that evil people aren't bad all the time-- Hitler loved dogs and was great with kids!-- I am playing with standard alignment rules in standard Golarion. As it's written, alignment in PFRPG/D&D is prescriptive, and if a mortal has an alignment in my world, they have done something to earn it, and they will likely continue to do so. If you're running an orphanage while evading the authorities for the orphanage you burned down, this inquisitor's fire is you paying the piper for your crimes. I recognize that in the real world there is a lot more moral grey area, but due to the presence of alignment spells, evil/good gods, angels/fiends, the presence of paladins/anti-paladins, standard Pathfinder and Golarion are poor environments for dealing in that sort of moral relativism. I am in no way undermining your perspective. I agree 100%. But in standard Pathfinder, the weight of your good/evil alignment isn't like the shields in Halo. This is amplified even more when discussing outsiders like the ones I used in my example. As written, rakshashas and succubi are, in fact, evil all the time.

RainyDayNinja wrote:
The spell corruption resistance gives resistance to alignment-based damage. It's a 2nd-level anti-paladin and inquisitor spell, so fairly easy to get even as a potion (although it should probably be CL 7 at least to get to resist 10 points of damage).

Perfect. Thanks for showing me this.

DM_Blake wrote:
Lots of great stuff.

I'm thinking along the same lines. I want there to be serious politial and civil repercussions if he just answers his suspicions with heavenly fire.

More than that, though, I hadn't done the logical leap you did, but it makes sense. I was treating the fire as the divining resource, but the fire itself has no knowledge; it has to ping some divine server and say, "Is this evil?" and when it gets a "yes" reply, it hurts. If the server request to Heaven times out, I guess it would just fizzle. That makes sense.

RAW, RainyDayNinja's solution is probably the best, but I think I'll invoke my deific authority and decide that if the critter doesn't register as evil, the fire does nothing.

Thanks so much for the ideas, guys.


Boredom is the enemy of vigilance. Keep the fiends off the field for a couple of sessions, and when the Test of Fire doesn't yield results after a while, the player will forget to use it.


Hmm, let's see:

1. There is a Ring of Mind Shielding:

Quote:
The wearer is continually immune to (...) any attempt to magically discern her alignment.

It's debatable whether it protects against alignment based damage.

2. Tieflings can have the following variant ability:

Quote:
You are aware of and can choose the result of any attempt to detect your alignment.

Again, debatable, but at least built-in. Could be used for other creatures, too.

3. A troublemaker can actually be neutral, but his deeds can still be devastating. Think about a N druid sending big predators into a frontier town, to reestablish the natural order. Consider a careless CN caster, who summons succubuses for his own fun and lets them fly afterwards. Or imagine a LN inquisitor who fires energy beams at random commoners, to uncover the truth - pun intended. In some cases, a troublemaker can be even good, but this not a thread about paladins.

4. The PC is probably only able to interact with nonevil minions, written instructions or villian's magical image.

Actually, if one of my PCs would fire beams at commoners all the time, he would have to live with a backlash.


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lololol

Okay, guys. Cast aside thy worst case scenarios!

The player is NOT just blasting commoners with his fire. As I said, he got a lot better when the damage just became too much to casually use.

He is actually playing a CG servant of Lythertida, and he's doing it well. He only became the inquisitor after he DIDN'T use his power on a council member NPC (Kingmaker, again) betrayed the kingdom. That rattled the PC and player, so he took up the role of spymaster. I'm sorry for my wording above, but he is not capricious with that power. He most certainly remembers he has it, though, and it is definitely the party's go-to for detecting evil.

They are getting to be big kids, though-- level 9-- and as DM_Blake said, their enemies are going to be walking into their kingdom fully prepared for interrogations by the angelic spymaster.

My purpose in asking was to ask what those preparations ought to be. I mean, I DO want the sneaks to be discovered eventually. My goal isn't to screw over my players, just to thwart some of their conventions and scare them a little.

At ease, guys. He's playing a CG character, and he's doing it well.


I would just custom make a magic item: either to resist holy damage or to shield from alignment effects.

Something simple like ...

Amulet of Neutrality - Wearer's alignment is treated as neutral for the purpose of determining any alignment related effect.

Crown of the Atheist - 3/day - As a Standard Action, the wearer becomes immune to holy damage for 1 minute. This must be used in 1 minute increments.

Potion of Resist Holy - As Potion of Resist <element>, but protects against holy damage.

Grand Lodge

Just make it so that the spell doesn't do visible damage. As an AOE, he doesn't know who it did and did not affect. So if there is no visual tell, then he won't know whether or not it affected them.


DM_Blake wrote:
Heretek wrote:
All it takes is the arcane caster to Detect Magic, Spellcraft, and knowledge Arcana to see these people all somehow have the exact same Abjuration auras on them. Then you've created a Reign of Terror.

Wait until the Kingdom has a chapter of the ACLU (well, maybe we have to replace the "A" with something more appropriate to this kingdom) that prevents the totalitarian regime from using magic to compel people to testify against themselves in a court of law (or any other inquisition).

I"m starting to see how this celestial sorcerer with his good alignment is treading into evil waters with his "flaming inquisition" and his "reign of terror" and his "totalitarian regime" - is this becoming a fascist society too? Maybe all of this is going too far and this inquisitor is heading down a slippery slope to alignment change (wait until he gets bat-wings instead of feathery ones...)

Wait, are you implying that some LG aren't fascists and totalitarian?

:)


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The description of the Heavenly Fire ability makes it clear that the damage is "divine" and not subject to energy resistance or immunity, so even by RAW it is not fire damage that a devil might be immune to. However, you do have to hit the target's touch AC and (if applicable, since this is a spell-like ability) overcome its spell resistance.

A spell such as Undetectable Alignment will not protect against effects like this because it is not a divination effect.


impureascetic wrote:


Truth be told, it's actually pretty cool. He's really grown into this role as the inquisitor for the kingdom (we're playing Kingmaker), and it's pretty badass when he folds his arms and says something like, "If you're who you say you are, submit to my flame. If you are pure of heart, it will actually make you feel better."

Awesome, right?

Except if I want to do something cool with a rakshasha, succubus, doppelganger, etc., I am out of luck.

Response: "As a servant of Serenrae it is inappropriate for me to allow any other god to test me. I can not in good conscience submit to another god as it would be abandoning my faith and loyalty to her."


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Minions.

Your rakshasa, succubus, or doppelganger doesn't ever have to meet the Inquisitor. They can have minions doing the dirty work. Neutral minions, people just doing a job, or even good minions who have been lied to. That way the Inquisitor can't just holy fire their way to answers, they actually have to unravel the web the villain has created from the shadows.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The description of the Heavenly Fire ability makes it clear that the damage is "divine" and not subject to energy resistance or immunity, so even by RAW it is not fire damage that a devil might be immune to. However, you do have to hit the target's touch AC and (if applicable, since this is a spell-like ability) overcome its spell resistance -- so if either touch AC or SR is high enough, they would have a chance of foiling the spell.

A spell such as Undetectable Alignment will not protect against effects like this and the Burst of Radiance spell because it is not a divination effect.

Shadow Lodge

The rakshasa method: How about a simple Bluff? *FOOM* "Didn't hurt." (ow)

The doppleganger method: Only replace people who have already been fired.

The succubus method: Well, you never see her until the sorcerer's alone, in the first place.

Silver Crusade

Seriously folks. False positives is the way to go here. Detecting evil is good and all, but in a good game, it's not the same thing as "detect bad guy."

The party has allies and shouldn't always get to choose who their neighbors--or even allies are. If their sponsors (I think the party in Kingmaker has sponsors) decide to send them some assistance in the form of a ruthless (but trustworthy and honorable) mercenary company led by a LE cavalier, can they afford to tell their sponsors to stuff it? So the cavalier is evil? So what? Or what if they want to conclude an alliance with the equivalent of Tywin Lannister. Will they tell him to get lost because he's evil? Will the fire test tell them anything they didn't know before Tywin even showed up in the room?

What if they're working with Rob Stark instead? Roos Bolton is one of his bannermen. Rob didn't have any means to detect evil, but if he had, do you think it would have made a difference? Roos was entitled to his position by birthright and held it by being one of Rob's stronger and more competent vassals. Rob wasn't going to cut off his hand just because it was evil. He needed direct defiance in order to get his Darth Vader on--and killing the Carstark didn't work out too well for him. Bringing this back to the party situation, what is the Rob Stark equivalent going to do if your inquisitor says, "you know Roos Bolton is evil, right?" Absolutely nothing. So the party has to put up with Roos until he actually does something that will bother Rob.

How about the things the party controls directly? Sure, the party could have a rule "no hiring evil people," but when they need an army or a spymaster, they're not going to infiltrate evil cults with Captain America, and if they want a platoon of crack soldiers, they're not going to be able to fill the ranks with Ghandi clones. And even if they do, some of them are going to turn due to the pressures of life and their jobs.

All your Rakshasa or Succubus has to do is say, "Ouch, that hurts. So you know I'm not a nice guy. You're not looking for a nice guy. You're looking for someone who can solve your bandit problem/infiltrate the evil cult. I can do that. Do you want it done or not?"

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