I recently quit being a paladin in one of my games because it was not my playstyle, I was probably going to lose my abilities soon anyway. So, I did some research, made a few rough draft characters, and finally I stumbled across something beautiful:
Fred Flintstone (not roleplaying him, he just uses rocks)
Orc
Barbarian 5, Fighter 2
CN
AC 16, Touch 12, Flat 14 (chain shirt)
HP 84
Fort + 11, Ref + 4, Will + 0
Speed: 40
Melee, raging: Rock +16/+11 (2d6+13/13) gore + 11 (1d8+4)
Melee, not raging: rock + 14/9 (1d8+10/10)
Ranged, raging (preferred style,it is a touch attack): Rock + 14/14/9 (2d6+13/13/13)
Ranged, not raging(not touch attack): Rock + 12/12/7
Range of rocks: 30ft increments
Str: 25 (18 starting, 4 racial, 1 level, 2 enhancement, an extra +4 when raging)
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 7
Cha: 5
CMB 14, CMD 26, BAB 7
Feats: Catch off Guard, Two-Handed Thrower, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Throw Anything
Rage Powers: lesser hurling, lesser fiend totem
Barb Archetype: Hurler (+10ft range on thrown weapons)
Equipment: Chain Shirt, lesser belt of hurling, bag of rocks
The feats work perfectly to give me more attacks with the lesser hurling rage power. The lesser hurling rage power says I can throw a small sized rock as a touch attack with two hands as a full-round action, however the Two-Handed Thrower feat says i can throw any two-handed weapon as a standard action, and make all my possible attacks with Quick Draw. I got Throw Anything and Catch off Guard so i can use rocks as ranged weapons and melee weapons. The belt allows me to add my strength to attack rolls with thrown weapons and gives me +10ft range.
For being level 7, i think this build's offense is amazing. It's AC and Will are garbage, but they usually are for barbarians anyway.
If you have any builds you think are more powerful than this at around the same level, if you have any recommendations to improve this, or if you might have noticed something i didn't that makes this build not work the way it should, just post your suggestions.
Erm, pretty much ANY build trumps this as far as damage goes. By level 7 your average no frills melee Barbarian is dealing 2d6+17 easily...WITHOUT needing to spend more Feats than Power Attack, and without dumping all his other stats into the dirt to achieve his 24 Str as a Human, and without needing to put a bunch of Rage Powers into being able to chuck rocks, and with being able to overcome DR/Magic and other DRs down the line.
This build is a lot of effort for little benefit.
Erm, pretty much ANY build trumps this as far as damage goes. By level 7 your average no frills melee Barbarian is dealing 2d6+17 easily...WITHOUT needing to spend more Feats than Power Attack, and without dumping all his other stats into the dirt to achieve his 24 Str as a Human, and without needing to put a bunch of Rage Powers into being able to chuck rocks, and with being able to overcome DR/Magic and other DRs down the line.
This build is a lot of effort for little benefit.
I don't know if you saw this part: they are touch attacks. 2d6+13 3 times per round hitting at a 95% chance, literally. . . at level 7. Maybe i should have bolded that part. It seems kinda hidden in the mediocre stats. The ranged raging attacks are what makes this build good.
Yeah just go gunslinger more attacks same to hit chance
Yeah just go gunslinger more attacks same to hit chance
Gunslinger's just a powercreep class. Also, my GM probably wouldn't allow gunslingers because they're known to be overpowered. And i think it's cool to be super strong and throw rocks the size of children at people.
They aren't touch attacks dude, lol. The feats you mentioned don't interact.
also well built barbarians have excellent will saves, only beat by paladins and sine monks. Not sure why you think they are usually bad.
I laughed pretty hard at gunslingers being known overpowered.
My GM's friend was a gunslinger once. His GM was mad because he was killing the enemies too easily, so he sent the gunslinger to his "death". At level 2 he one-shot-killed a cr 11 enemy
They aren't touch attacks dude, lol. The feats you mentioned don't interact.
also well built barbarians have excellent will saves, only beat by paladins and sine monks. Not sure why you think they are usually bad.
I laughed pretty hard at gunslingers being known overpowered.
Actually, they are touch attacks. Read the lesser hurling rage power.
Actually, they are touch attacks. Read the lesser hurling rage power.They aren't touch attacks dude, lol. The feats you mentioned don't interact.
also well built barbarians have excellent will saves, only beat by paladins and sine monks. Not sure why you think they are usually bad.
I laughed pretty hard at gunslingers being known overpowered.
Doesn't that grant a save? And ... um ... how big are those rocks? (I know, nothing you want to ask a raging orc, but still ... )
Doesn't that grant a save? And ... um ... how big are those rocks? (I know, nothing you want to ask a raging orc, but still ... )Actually, they are touch attacks. Read the lesser hurling rage power.They aren't touch attacks dude, lol. The feats you mentioned don't interact.
also well built barbarians have excellent will saves, only beat by paladins and sine monks. Not sure why you think they are usually bad.
I laughed pretty hard at gunslingers being known overpowered.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention the save. It's DC 21 reflex at this level ( 10 + 1/2 barb's level + str modifier). The rocks are small sized, so about 3ft in diameter.
I'd take multiple regular attacks over a full round touch attack that does less damage than my greatsword.
If accuracy is a problem for your barbarian, you did something wrong.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention the save. It's DC 21 reflex at this level ( 10 + 1/2 barb's level + str modifier). The rocks are small sized, so about 3ft in diameter.Doesn't that grant a save? And ... um ... how big are those rocks? (I know, nothing you want to ask a raging orc, but still ... )Actually, they are touch attacks. Read the lesser hurling rage power.They aren't touch attacks dude, lol. The feats you mentioned don't interact.
also well built barbarians have excellent will saves, only beat by paladins and sine monks. Not sure why you think they are usually bad.
I laughed pretty hard at gunslingers being known overpowered.
DC 21 raging reflex save ... I'll need others to tell me how well that works in practice.
I don't think you can get 2d6 damage on a melee rock at that point, if it's Small. And I'm not sure how many of these 3' rocks you can carry around.
3' diameter is about 45cm. Volume of a 45cm-radius ball is 45 cubed times pi times 4/3, so about 381,704 cc.
Water is 1 g/cc, so a 3' ball of water is about 381,704 grams, or 382kg or thereabouts. Rocks are known for being ... denser.
Oof.
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As a full-round action while raging, the barbarian can lift and hurl an object up to one size category smaller than herself with both hands or two size categories smaller with one hand as an improvised weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. This inflicts damage as a falling object (Core Rulebook 443) plus the barbarian’s Strength bonus. This damage is halved if the object is not made of stone, metal, or similar material. This is a ranged touch attack, and the target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) for half damage. The barbarian may apply Power Attack to this attack as a one- or two-handed weapon, as appropriate.
Three bolded emphasis mine.
Full round action to use this version of an attack.
This is treated as damage from a falling object, rather than a normal attack.
Two-Handed Thrower can not reduce the action to the free action, because the action to do this type of damage is specified as a Full-Round Action for that specific purpose. You are not using a rock as an improvised weapon that does improvised weapon damage, you are lifting a rock as a Full-Round Action to do the touch attack that does falling damage.
Now if you say that it is resolved by Two-Weapon Thrower, you must understand that there is also the third part of it, the Reflex save. Looking at your Strength, the DC would be 20. If you encounter a creature with evasion, you are out of luck.
To activate this, you must be raging, so if someone hits you with a Ray of Exhaustion (your AC is 10 while raging for that), you are out luck in activating the Hurling rage power. If a Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm, or Obscuring Mist is placed, you are also out of luck.
As for defensive purposes, you are a Level 7 with a +2 to Will Saves only when raging. You risk a lot when dropping your Wisdom, especially when Mental Block is now in play.
An Air Kinectist with extreme range will hit you 480 (960 if they have Air's Reach) feet away at Ranged Touch with 4d6+4+(CON/2) Damage, while Flying.
If you are specifically going Rock Thrower vs Rock Thrower, here is my comparison:
Level 7:
Rock - +17/+12 2d4+14 (Auto-Confirm Critical Threats)
Rock (Rapid Shot) - +15/+15/+10 2d4+14 (Auto-Confirm Critical Threats)
Rock (Deadly Aim) - +15/+10 2d4+18 (Auto-Confirm Critical Threats)
Rock (Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim) - +13/+13/+8 2d4+18 (Auto-Confirm Critical Threats)
This is with a 20-Point buy, Reduction of Damage (Arcane Strike became unusable in original build, so swapping with Disposable Weapon), and positive Will Save (+3). Moreover, it is PFS Legal, which says a lot in terms of restrictions of abilities/races.
But as you said, your character is a rought draft. You can still rework whatever you can to fix the potential problems.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention the save. It's DC 21 reflex at this level ( 10 + 1/2 barb's level + str modifier). The rocks are small sized, so about 3ft in diameter.Doesn't that grant a save? And ... um ... how big are those rocks? (I know, nothing you want to ask a raging orc, but still ... )Actually, they are touch attacks. Read the lesser hurling rage power.They aren't touch attacks dude, lol. The feats you mentioned don't interact.
also well built barbarians have excellent will saves, only beat by paladins and sine monks. Not sure why you think they are usually bad.
I laughed pretty hard at gunslingers being known overpowered.
DC 21 raging reflex save ... I'll need others to tell me how well that works in practice.
I don't think you can get 2d6 damage on a melee rock at that point, if it's Small. And I'm not sure how many of these 3' rocks you can carry around.
3' diameter is about 45cm. Volume of a 45cm-radius ball is 45 cubed times pi times 4/3, so about 381,704 cc.
Water is 1 g/cc, so a 3' ball of water is about 381,704 grams, or 382kg or thereabouts. Rocks are known for being ... denser.
Oof.
Well, we're level 7, so maybe a 4-6 expected bonus to reflex? some outliers here and there. I think it should work pretty well ranged. I don't plan on doing a lot of melee since the ranged attacks are better. That last part on the weight of the rock. . .yeah. . .800lbs. So I can throw it 150ft with decent accuracy, but I can only stumble around with it. . .seems legit. I guess i'll be needing a bag of holding.
Edit: 800lbs if that was water, so more than that.
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Well, we're level 7, so maybe a 4-6 expected bonus to reflex? some outliers here and there. I think it should work pretty well ranged. I don't plan on doing a lot of melee since the ranged attacks are better. That last part on the weight of the rock. . .yeah. . .800lbs. So I can throw it 150ft with decent accuracy, but I can only stumble around with it. . .seems legit. I guess i'll be needing a bag of holding.
Bag of Holding involves a move action to pull something out from it.
Well, we're level 7, so maybe a 4-6 expected bonus to reflex? some outliers here and there. I think it should work pretty well ranged. I don't plan on doing a lot of melee since the ranged attacks are better. That last part on the weight of the rock. . .yeah. . .800lbs. So I can throw it 150ft with decent accuracy, but I can only stumble around with it. . .seems legit. I guess i'll be needing a bag of holding.Bag of Holding involves a move action to pull something out from it.
Can't Quick Draw something out of it?
Gunslinger's just a powercreep class.
If you're serious about this, just enchant one chunk of Adamantine with Courageous and hang it from a Blinkback Belt. Then throw fastballs though things.
In all seriousness, this isn't overpowered. Its pretty much right in range of what is expected for that level.
Well, we're level 7, so maybe a 4-6 expected bonus to reflex? some outliers here and there. I think it should work pretty well ranged. I don't plan on doing a lot of melee since the ranged attacks are better. That last part on the weight of the rock. . .yeah. . .800lbs. So I can throw it 150ft with decent accuracy, but I can only stumble around with it. . .seems legit. I guess i'll be needing a bag of holding.Bag of Holding involves a move action to pull something out from it.
I checked out your build. Seemed pretty good, but i didn't see where you got the proficiency with rocks. They're improvised weapons, right? I'm probably missing it, but still great build. I didn't consider going more fighter than barb, i guess that would help since i'm feeling feat-deprived with this.
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We had a whole debate in the thread. Simply put, Exotic Weapon Profiency does not make you proficient in a weapon, only reduces the penalty to that weapon by 4. Moreover, using examples of Stone Giants, they are able to use Rocks as Thrown Weaponry without the penalty.
If going with proficiency/no-proficiency issue, there is a build on the first page that deals with the issue.
I got in a debate in another thread a long time ago about proficiency with rocks. In my opinion they should be considered simple weapons, as there isn't a simpler weapon imaginable.
You pick it up, and throw it.
It's so simple that Monks aren't even proficient in it.I got in a debate in another thread a long time ago about proficiency with rocks. In my opinion they should be considered simple weapons, as there isn't a simpler weapon imaginable.
You pick it up, and throw it.
Depends on how you're using it. (Heh heh.)
Seriously. Sling a rock? Well, make sure it's bullet-sized ... and you're at -1 to hit and one size down for damage you do. But as far as throwing rocks used for melee? Honestly ... the striking surface is irregular, and don't start me on what kind of hilt or handle those things normally have. I'd have to count them as improvised.
And you can entirely strap handles to them. You now have either a club, mace, or axe, depending on the rock involved and how generous your GM is feeling about your efforts. (And your Craft (weapon) skill. 'So, that's a 2 on the die, and you have no ranks. Your Int mod is -2, so your net result is 0? Well ... ')
At level 2 he one-shot-killed a cr 11 enemyMaximum gunslinger damage at level 2 is
4d12 + 4 pb + 8 DA, so 60 damage. Did that gm not know what cr means, I think there are zero cr 11 monsters with 60 hp lol. Its not really any more than a fighter using s scythe, the 4x crit mod sometimes kills things above your pay grade.
The most broken classes are from core :^). Wizard, cleric, druid. Tbh it sounds like your group isn't far into pathfinder optimization
Is a fighter with a scythe using touch AC with range? If you don't know the problems gunslingers cause, I'm not sure his group is the one behind.
Is a fighter with a scythe using touch AC with range? If you don't know the problems gunslingers cause, I'm not sure his group is the one behind.At level 2 he one-shot-killed a cr 11 enemyMaximum gunslinger damage at level 2 is
4d12 + 4 pb + 8 DA, so 60 damage. Did that gm not know what cr means, I think there are zero cr 11 monsters with 60 hp lol. Its not really any more than a fighter using s scythe, the 4x crit mod sometimes kills things above your pay grade.
The most broken classes are from core :^). Wizard, cleric, druid. Tbh it sounds like your group isn't far into pathfinder optimization
Gunslingers are just Fighters who attack touch AC. All they do is damage.
In optimization terms, damage is one of the weakest things in the game. Often necessary, yes, but if it's all your character can do, your character is weak.
Gunslingers use crossbows that attack touch AC and sometimes explode. Whoop de doo. Their damage can be impressive, but without (now defunct) shenanigans like TWFing with double barreled pistols and getting 4x the attacks they would normally have they actually deal about the same damage or even LESS than a similarly optimized Archer character when you do the math.
As for OHKOing a CR 11 enemy, unless the guy was like a 10 Con Wizard or something, that's not even possible. And even then that guy has around 50 hp (12th level) and False Life or something could even potentially save him.
The average HP for CR 11 is 145. Unless you play a game that involves super double mega ultra crits of doom, the guy is physically incapable of one-shotting a CR 11 enemy. He's not even capable of dealing the 73 damage required to trigger the Massive Damage optional rule.
We had a whole debate in the thread. Simply put, Exotic Weapon Profiency does not make you proficient in a weapon, only reduces the penalty to that weapon by 4. Moreover, using examples of Stone Giants, they are able to use Rocks as Thrown Weaponry without the penalty.
If going with proficiency/no-proficiency issue, there is a build on the first page that deals with the issue.
Wait, what? So in your games, fighters can NEVER have weapon specialization in, say, a falcata unless they take the heirloom weapon trait? I am a pretty clear stickler for RAW but I don't understand how saying "I have Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Falcata" means that I'm not proficient in the falcata.
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Wait, what? So in your games, fighters can NEVER have weapon specialization in, say, a falcata unless they take the heirloom weapon trait? I am a pretty clear stickler for RAW but I don't understand how saying "I have Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Falcata" means that I'm not proficient in the falcata.We had a whole debate in the thread. Simply put, Exotic Weapon Profiency does not make you proficient in a weapon, only reduces the penalty to that weapon by 4. Moreover, using examples of Stone Giants, they are able to use Rocks as Thrown Weaponry without the penalty.
If going with proficiency/no-proficiency issue, there is a build on the first page that deals with the issue.
No, I was saying that when people got technical about the specifics of proficiency, people realized that even the feat did not give it.
You can read the thread I linked an then you can post your revised reaction.