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Once I had the Pathfinder Unchained book in hand, I began to look at the classes to see what I would like to utilize in our game. I started with the Rogue. I liked most of what I saw, but there were a few I felt could use some adjustments.
My proposed changes to the Rogue are detailed below and I think the balance is good. However, I am not as well-versed in all of the Pathfinder rules as many of you forum-goers are. I am hoping that anyone who is interested might point out any issues these changes may bring (such as loopholes, crazy ability combinations, etc). Below, I have noted the Class Features from Pathfinder Unchained that are relative and then the Homebrew adjustments. We use the Core rulebook, APG, Ultimate Combat, and Ultimate Magic in our game.
GOAL:
- Retain the power level of the Pathfinder Unchained Rogue
- Give non-Finesse Rogue characters an option to NOT take Weapon Finesse/Finesse Training and use that feature for something else
- Give non-Rogues characters the option to gain melee weapon damage from dexterity
- Utilize some of the Skill Unlock ideas without players utilizing feats/class features to do so
- Keep the changes as simple as possible
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PATHFINDER UNCHAINED ROGUE: (Compared to Core)
GENERAL INFORMATION:
These are the Class Features that Pathfinder Unchained introduced for the Rogue that are addressed in the Homebrew Rogue. They are noted here to give some context for the Homebrew Rogue adjustments given later.
TALENTS:
Added: Added or updated a number of talents
Removed: Befuddling Strike* (AGP), Offensive Defense* (AGP), Entanglement of Blades* (AGP), Thoughtful Reexamining (AGP)
FINESSE TRAINING:
Added: At Level 1, Rogues gain Weapon Finesse and Finesse Training
ROGUE'S EDGE:
Added: At Level 5, 10, 15, and 20: Rogues gain Rogue’s Edge with one skill
OTHER CLASS FEATURES RETAINED:
Base Attack Bonus, Saves, Rogue Talents, Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Evasion, Danger Sense, Debilitating Injury, Uncanny Dodge, Advanced Rogue Talents, Master Strike
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HOMEBREW ROGUE (Compared to Pathfinder Unchained):
TALENTS:
Added: Keeping all talents as described in Pathfinder Unchained talents except what is removed below.
Added: Finesse Rogue talent added to Rogue Talent list
Removed: Befuddling Strike* (AGP), Offensive Defense* (AGP), Entanglement of Blades* (AGP), Thoughtful Reexamining (AGP), Certainty (PU), Cutting Edge (PU)
FINESSE TRAINING:
Removed: Finesse Training
Added: At Level 1, Rogues gain a Rogue Talent
ROGUE'S EDGE:
Removed: At Level 5, 10, 15, and 20: Rogues gain Rogue’s Edge with one skill
Added: At Level 5, 10, 15, and 20: Rogues gain one non-combat feat (exception: may not take Extra Rogue Talent feat to gain a combat feat)
OTHER CLASS FEATURES RETAINED:
Unless otherwise noted above, Base Attack Bonus, Saves, Rogue Talents, Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Evasion, Danger Sense, Debilitating Injury, Uncanny Dodge, Advanced Rogue Talents, Master Strike are unchanged from Pathfinder Unchained
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NEW FEAT:
FINESSE EXPERTISE (COMBAT) FEAT: This feat can the taken by any character with a 13 Dexterity and the Weapon Finesse feat and allows the character to add their Dexterity modifier for damage instead of Strength for any weapon usable with Weapon Finesse. It is compatible with feats such as Double-Slice and Power Attack (but does not grant x1.5 damage for two handed weapons).
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OTHER THOUGHTS:
The only thing about this proposal that sticks out in my mind is that the Pathfinder Unchained Rogue receives Weapon Finesse and Finesse Expertise at level 1, which is 2 feats...while the Homebrew Rogue receives a Rogue Talent, which is only 1 feat.
However, later on in exchange for Rogue's Edge, the Homebrew Rogue gains 4 non-combat feats. I think the versatility of the feats does serve to bring this back into balance as a whole, but the Homebrew Rogue is a still little weaker at lower level compared to the Pathfinder Unchained Rogue. I have been unable to come up with an alternative, but I think the difference is minor enough to be acceptable.
Again, any suggestions or observations are appreciated.
So, the rogue can now get as many combat feats as a fighter AND gets an additional four feats? Yeah, they can't be combat feats, but technically a rogue could take Extra Rogue Talent (combat trick). I honestly prefer Path of War's Deadly Agility over your solution for Dex-to-damage, which is vague (what does it mean when it's "compatible" with those feats?).
I'm honestly not a fan of it at all.
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@Cyrad: First of all, thanks for taking the time to look it over.
Let me point a few things out about your feedback:
1) The bonus non-combat feats above states that the Extra Rogue Talent cannot be used to gain a combat feat, so regardless of how you try to manipulate the process, you cannot get a combat feat out of it. Also, as voideternal pointed out, the Rogue's Combat Trick talent can only be taken once (twice if the rogue has the Swashbuckler archetype).
Therefore, a human fighter can gain 12 Combat Feats by level 10 while a human rogue can only gain 6 Combat Feats (9 if rogue talents are used to gain Finesse Rogue, Weapon Training, and Combat Trick; that is pretty good, but you don't have nearly the versatility of choice as the fighter).
The reason for the bonus feats is that they are replacing Rogue's Edge which was a skill-based class feature. Allowing non-combat feats is a way to keep the emphasis more towards skills as well as other useful abilities such as Nimble Moves, Fleet, Endurance, Extra non-combat Rogue talents, as well as skill bonuses and save bonuses.
2) My Dex-to-Damage solution is very similar to what Pathfinder Unchained uses for Finesse Training except Finesse Training into two feats: Weapon Finesse and Finesse Expertise; and Finesse Expertise is essentially Paizo's dex-to-damage solution except that instead of having to wait every 5 levels to apply dex-to-damage to a new Finesse weapon, it works for any Finesse weapon as soon as you gain the feat.
As far as your question on compatibility, Pathfinder Unchained does not explain how Finesse Training interacts with other feats such as Power Attack (which by it's description is an attack that sacrifices accuracy for strength) or Double-Slice (which only mentions affecting damage by strength). The comment was to show that Finesse Training works with two common feats and to talk about the exception for the x1.5 damage gained for two-handed weapons. I was not about to list every single combat feat for clarification; I just wanted to give a few examples.
I was not familiar with Path of War's Deadly Agility, so I took a loot at it. It also requires two feats (Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility) but also requires the character to use a swift action. I did note that it says that off-hand damage is not decreased which eliminates the need for Double-Slice (which I personally think is too much).
So Cyrad, if I may ask, what is it about Deadly Agility that you like better?
Cyrad actually commented this to me on a similar occasion, so even though I am not he, I can say:
Slashing grace is poorly designed; it can be taken without a BAB, and only applies to one one-handed slashing weapon, and is convoluted due to the piercing bit. Deadly agility on the other hand requires BAB 1 and applies to pretty much everything weapon finesse applies to. Simpler, easier, doesn't require weapon focus, more balanced.
Deadly agility reads:
'You have learned how to use your agility to greater purpose in battle.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit(s): You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when wielding a light weapon or a weapon that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat (such as the rapier) when determining additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack.
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is not reduced for off-hand weapons.'
Whereas pathfinder's solution, slashing grace reads:
'Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.'
Oh, I didn't catch that you can't take combat trick multiple times. Still, replacing rogue's edge with bonus feats doesn't sit well with me.
\2) My Dex-to-Damage solution is very similar to what Pathfinder Unchained uses for Finesse Training except Finesse Training into two feats: Weapon Finesse and Finesse Expertise; and Finesse Expertise is essentially Paizo's dex-to-damage solution except that instead of having to wait every 5 levels to apply dex-to-damage to a new Finesse weapon, it works for any Finesse weapon as soon as you gain the feat.
As Pseudoos explained, Paizo's Slashing Grace is not well designed. I'm not crazy about rogue finesse, but adding 1-1/2 your Dex mod on damage rolls is a major selling point of the new rogue. You took that away. I always had the opinion that the rogue should have been a full BAB class--it's currently the only non-full BAB class that can't cast spells. Rogue finesse is the one thing that somewhat makes up for it.
As far as your question on compatibility, Pathfinder Unchained does not explain how Finesse Training interacts with other feats such as Power Attack
Neither does yours. You need to clarify it.
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@Pseudos: Thanks for posting the description for Slashing Grace. I had mentioned in my post that we were only using the Core Book, the APG, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat so we don't have Ultimate Class guide in our game (and I doubt we will get it). However, after reading Slashing Grace I agree with you and Cyrad that the implementation is not that great.
@Cyrad: Let me respond to your comments
ROGUES EDGE:
Would you happen to have any alternate suggestions instead of using non-combat feats? Since Rogues Edge was skill-related, I would like the replacement to at least be non-combat in some way.
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DEX-TO-DAMAGE:
You made a comment on rogue finesse. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are referring to Pathfinder Unchained Finesse Training which gives a level 1 Rogue the Weapon Finesse feat as well as Dexterity-to-Damage with one weapon.
My solution was to instead give the Rogue a bonus talent at level 1 (which could be used to gain Weapon Finesse). He could then use his first feat to gain Finesse Expertise (which gives him Dexterity-to-damage with every Finessable weapon). So, the Dexterity Rogue still has the option to go the Dexterity-to-damage route; but it also gives other Rogue types (like a bruiser type Rogue) the option to use the talent/feat for something else if they choose to.
You also commented that adding 1-1/2 your Dex mod on damage rolls is a major selling point of the new rogue that I took away. I am assuming you are referring to two-handed weapons and I do not believe that Pathfinder Unchained allows for x1.5 for Dexterity. Would you mind telling me where you came across that?
The closest passage I heave read in Pathfinder Unchained is this:
Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier.
While this passage does say that a character can use their Dexterity modifier instead of Strength, it does not state any rules about x1.5 for two-handed weapons. Also, it only talks about effects that would prevent Strength Damage would prevent Dexterity damage; it does not state that effects that raise Strength damage also raises Dexterity damage.
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CLARIFYING COMBAT FEAT COMPATIBILITY:
I don't know how to explain it more clearly without listing individual combat feats and giving an explanation for how each works with Finesse Expertise (and I don't think doing so would give much benefit to this conversation). Most work anyway. For simplicity's sake, please assume that Finesse Expertise can be used with any combat feat that can normally be used by characters using Strength-to-damage (which means that most or all combat feats can be used).
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OTHER THOUGHTS:
You commented that you always felt that the rogue should have been a full BAB class. Please keep in mind that one of my goals here is to try and balance this Homebrew Rogue against the Pathfinder Unchained Rogue by changing some specific class features (hopefully with a only a few simplified changes). In general, I really do like the power level that the Pathfinder Unchained Rogue has; there are just a few things I wanted to tweak. I am not attempting to do a rewrite the whole class.
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And BTW, I do want to thank you again for the feedback. :)
Clarification:
The unchained rogue does not gain the ability to deal dex damage at level one, rather level three.
Creating your own feats is a fine way to work around problems, I'd suggest letting the 1.5*damage apply to finesse weapons; it's an edge case and power-wise it should be fine, its even okay in RAW for rogues now.
The unchained rogue can deal 1.5*dex damage with something like an elven curve blade (two-handed finesse), as the text reads 'Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll.' This is in contrast to deadly agility's rule (admittedly homebrew), which specifically stops dex at 1.0, even for two-handed weapons. Slashing grace doesn't allow it either, since it only applies to one-handed slashing, but the unchained rogue's ability does, so you should too.
The rogue is a skill class, so it feels awkward that you want to replace a skill ability (rogue's edge) with something else. Even if you want to give them bonus feats, I suggest providing a small list of them (like the monk, sorcerer, etc) rather than providing free reign to choose whatever feat they want that isn't a combat feat. It's more balanced and better design practice.
Rogue finesse does allow a rogue to add 1-1/2 their Dexterity on finesse two-handed weapons. An off-hand attack uses half their Dexterity. An FAQ explained this a month ago. Power Attack applies because it specifically says wielding a weapon with two hands. Double Slice applies because the feat points out that the whole point is to use your full modifier instead of half your modifier. This is a huge selling point of the new rogue because it's the only ability in the game that allows you to gain the full benefits of an elven curve blade.
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@Cyrad: Thanks for the mention of the FAQ. I was able to find the post from May 15th under the Design Teams posts and am considering their stance.
As for the feats, I did consider making a short list of feats that the Rogue could choose from. I will have to take a look at it again.
I did not like the implementation of the Skill Unlocks, so in order to use the Pathfinder Unchained rogue, I had to replace Rogue's Edge with something or nothing. I prefer something and I would think my players would as well. :)