There are many such statements in the Pathfinder rules -- and most such abilities from before the publication of Ultimate Campaign can be changed via retraining. This class feature would be a logical one to make retrainable the same way.
The "cannot be changed" language basically rules out your changing that feature any other way.
Every other form of Dex to Damage is restricted in someway, so why not this too?
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Level 11 and level 19. It's almost added as a joke on roguesTechnically it's level 3 (so no easy dip), I don't have the book but don't they get the option to grab other weapons over the levels?
TBH I'm just glad they get free dex to damage.
I agree it would be nice otherwise, i don't know why they really felt the need to limit it. -shrugs-
:/
Why do the penalties that rogues add when they land a sneak attack not scale for allies? They start out ok and then will fade to obscurity. A minus 2 is good at level 4 but not really worth anything at level 12
because it's free. If a 2 doesn't mean anything then dint worry about it
And before when you landed a sneak attack it just did damage.
You're right, how could I think that you doing the same thing and getting more out Of it meant you're getting something for free?
Why do the penalties that rogues add when they land a sneak attack not scale for allies? They start out ok and then will fade to obscurity. A minus 2 is good at level 4 but not really worth anything at level 12
So you never, ever, EVER Flank at lv12, because by then it's stupid since -2 "means nothing".
Good to know.
Also, this is the very definition of "give a man an inch..."
The ability could have EASILY not included allies at all, at which point you wouldn't be complaining that it didn't give allies a bonus to hit.
Bearing in mind this bonus stacks with Flanking, so Flanking in total you get a +4 to hit.
If you have Menacing weapon, your allies get a +6 total while Flanking, and you get +8.
Oh, and if your Tactician-using friend has Outflank on, that's +8 to your Flanking allies, and +10 to you.
+2 by itself probably isn't going to kill that Great Wyrm Red Dragon alone, but combined with a even a handful of other factors is going to add major damage.
-2 is still -2. You never had an attack hit your PC by their AC being rolled exactly? I know I have, and this -2 would prevent that hit.
Ever had a crit confirmed by AC rolled exactly?
Me too, sure it's happened.
I'll take an effective +2 to my AC because my flank buddy hit the bad guy, thanks very much. Keep it coming!!
Okay, let's see if you'll understand this:
On teleshop, they are selling a new Super Slice-O-Matic for 19.99$.
But wait! There's more! If you order now, you'll get a finger protector FOR FREE!
For 19.99$ you get a Super Slicer and a Finger Protector FOR FREE!
If you decide to order, how much you are paying for the finger protector?
If your intent is to get the Slice-O-Matic anyway, then extra is better.
You're a Rogue.
You Sneak Attack. That's what you do - that's your THING! [/The_Monarch_Voice]
Seriously, though - telling a Rogue not to Sneak Attack is like telling a Barbarian not to Rage, a Paladin not to Smite, a Bard not to Perform, etc.
You're a Rogue, so you're going to use Sneak Attack. There's no two ways around it.
Getting MORE out of Sneak Attack and making it substantially more tactically advantageous to do so just makes sense.
You said a 2 wasn't worth anything at level twelve. If that's true then you'd never try to flank at level 12 as the bonus you'd get aren't worth anything. This is quite in line with what you said. Maybe not what you meant though.
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Woah guys, woah. Aren't we all just humans that want to be loved?
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Woah guys, woah. Aren't we all just humans that want to be loved?
I'm a Frost Giant, obvs.
And you're a...
a...
I wanna say gecko... thing?
...You haven't seen the last of Barbados Slim! Now, goodbye forever!
Also, trading insult-laden barbs (however well-deserved) will likely just get your posts flagged.
That being said, +2 is generally considered to be about 10% of a d20. Having that as a bonus sounds pretty good indeed. Having as a penalty is pretty bad. Having the ability to apply it to my meat-and-potatoes is gravy.
Exactly, and combined with Flanking, which is more than likely the main tactic you're going to be using, it's a +20% chance to hit.
Other classes do not have to spend GOLD and DAYS of training to change their class features. Why is there a double standard?
These abilities are cumulative. For example, a 12th-level paladin's lay on hands ability heals 6d6 points of damage and might also cure Fatigued and Exhausted conditions as well as removing diseases and neutralizing poisons. Once a condition or spell effect is chosen, it can't be changed.
Once this disguise has been chosen, it can't be changed.
The druid selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can’t be changed.
The magus chooses the blade’s type upon gaining the blade, and once chosen, it can’t be changed.
Oh yes, SO much of a double standard.
Hey fella's, look a new book got released today, the Rogue no longer sucks, the world is still spinning, life isn't so bad. Let's not fight, okay?
How you all alter Finesse Training, if you would?
Honestly, I wouldn't.
It's pretty much EXACTLY like getting Slashing/Fencing Grace for free, but better, because it's ANY Finesseable weapon.
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Hey fella's, look a new book got released today, the Rogue no longer sucks, the world is still spinning, life isn't so bad. Let's not fight, okay?
How you all alter Finesse Training, if you would?
Honestly, I wouldn't.
It's pretty much EXACTLY like getting Slashing/Fencing Grace for free, but better, because it's ANY Finesseable weapon.
Sure, but slashing grace gets put on a full BAB class that, while has one good save, has the ability to buffer itself (I'm not saying it can do this well, but it still can). I just feel like the Rogue, a 3/4 BAB class with no spellcasting, should get really, really good class features to compensate.
Finesse training: Fighter Weapon Groups instead of one weapon. Done.
The rogue is actually pretty bad still, bad fort and will saves are crippling and they still don't have an innate damage booster like other martial classes
Fair enough, I didn't say they become great, just that they no longer sucked.
Personally, I wish that it just applied to all finessable weapons (or at least opened up a new option every couple of levels).
On the note of the -2 to AC, I'm okay where it is, I wouldn't mind if it did scale a little. I wouldn't want it to scale a bunch, but a little scaling would be nice.
Finesse training: Fighter Weapon Groups instead of one weapon. Done.
The rogue is actually pretty bad still, bad fort and will saves are crippling and they still don't have an innate damage booster like other martial classes
Fort & Will do suck, but they get a, what, +4 to hit after they initially Sneak Attack?
And Sneak adds +1 Damage minimum at lv1, +2 at lv3, +3 at lv5, etc.
Statistically, it's more like +3.5 at lv1, +7 at lv3, +10.5 at lv5, etc. per hit.
You're just convinced that the world is flat Unchained Rogue is still bad, despite MANY players who have better arguments for and against the Rogue in its several incarnations who have all basically agreed that, even with the lacking Saves, it's still a significantly better class and is now very worthy of seeing play.
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Hey fella's, look, a new book got released today, the Rogue no longer sucks, the world is still spinning, life isn't so bad. Let's not fight, okay?
How would you all alter Finesse Training, if you would?
The rogue gets weapon finesse... for free
Finesse training gets dex to damage... for free.
This leaves room for a nice two dex damaging build. I don't see a need to change anything. You want to use other finesse weapons, you can get the agile enchantment and have both finesse and dex camage on that as well.
Ultimately your main damage is going to be sneak, and/or inflicting conditions, the extra damage is just gravy at that point.
The magic talents got enough of a boost to actually make them relevant.
Oh, what did they do to the talents?
