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Underfoot Assault is from the Mouser Swashbuckler. Monkey Shine the last feat in the Monkey Style line of feats. Sorry, can't link them here right now due to limitations by work websense filter.
I am inclined to say only one because the provoking action was movement that only happens once. However, there are two different sources generating the AoO so it is difficult to know how many are intended.
I have more complicated questions to stack on top of this, as well. Lets say that you have a Tiny sized character that has Underfoot Assault, Monkey Shine, the full Step Up line of feats (through Step Up and Strike), Sidestep, a Fortuitous Answering Weapon and he retains Opportune Parry and Riposte (by putting a level into Kata Master). Say this character starts his turn in his medium sized opponent's square and on the opponent's turn the opponent moves away with a withdraw action.
1. How many AoOs do you get on him?
Monkey Shine says that you get an AoO even if their movement would not normally provoke one. Underfoot Assault doesn't have that wording but just says you get an AoO from the movement. I'm inclined to say that qualify for an AoO but this harkens back to my original question about how many AoOs stack on a single provoking action.
2. So after he tries to move away you can follow him, right? And since you are moving back into his square this provokes another AoO, correct?
3. Do you get any additional AoOs from the movement of the foe after your reactive movement from the feats from my second question?
4. When the foe is trying to move away I could use a Trip attack against him. Since the character doesn't have Improved Trip this would provoke an AoO. With Opportune Parry and Riposte I could counter attack him. If I succeed (and I am likely to with both Answering and Monkey Shine bonuses giving a +8 total) then his attack doesn't go off and I would get my original attack (the Trip) as well as the attack from Opportune Parry and Riposte correct? ...and another from Step up and Strike? ...and another AoO at -5 from Fortuitous? ... or actually 2 additional from Fortuitous because Opportune Parry and Riposte counts as an AoO too?
5. So after all of the Step Up, Following Step, Step Up and Strike and Trip (provoking an AoO that I counter with Opportune Parry and Riposte) goes off could I then follow that up with Dodging Penache (and Underfoot Assault) to move into any other opponent's squares who I might have passed by during all this movement and move into their square to rinse, wash and repeat?
6. There seems to be no limit on the feats and deeds aside from the number of AoOs that I can take and the number of Penache points I have. So those seem to be the only limiting factors, right? I don't think that movement from the feats are limited as long it is a different foe providing the triggering actions. So really just limited by Penache and # of AoOs, right?
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You combine acrobatics and opportunity to devastating effect against your opponent.Prerequisite: Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monkey Moves, Monkey Style, Stunning Fist, Acrobatics 11 ranks, Climb 11 ranks.
Benefit: While using Monkey Style, if you successfully deliver a Stunning Fist attempt, in addition to the normal effect of Stunning Fist, you can spend a free action to enter a square adjacent to you that is within your opponent’s space. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. While you are in your opponent’s space, you gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC and a +4 bonus on melee attack rolls against that opponent. If otherwise unhindered, the opponent can move away from you, but if he does, he provokes an attack of opportunity from you even if his choice of movement does not normally do so.
Normal: You cannot enter an opponent’s space.
At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.
While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.
1) While the specific rule is that movement doesn't provoke the same person for moving out of multiple threatened squares in a single turn, I believe it's safe to also assume based on that that movement out of a single square doesn't provoke multiple times.
2) When you Step and Strike + Stunning Fist + Monkey Shine your movement does not provoke because of Monkey Shine. He can continue his movement but you do not have any more immediate actions left to activate Step Up (and thus Step Up and Strike) so you will effectively be done hitting him.
3) No, this is even more defined than 1. "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."
4) Almost. Step Up entirely depends on whether he was taking a 5' step. If he was withdrawing or taking a full move you couldn't use Step Up and Strike.
5) Assuming you used Step Up you've already used your immediate action so can't can't activate Underfoot Assault.
6) Step Up and Strike relies specifically on a 5' step and requires the use of your immediate action--you only get one immediate action per turn.
claudekennilol: Thank you for posting the links. I was going to do it when I got home. I may still do so if I can edit my post still when I get there.
1. So you are of the opinion that regardless of meeting the triggering conditions for multiple feats/class abilities that the provoking action can only trigger a single AoO? It could be that way, I don't know.
I think I am torn between "specific overrides general" and the general rule of "only one AoO per provoking action.
2. I should have mentioned that I was not referring to using Stunning Fist to enter their square. Just entering normally. In fact, the character in question doesn't even have Stunning Fist; he gets around the requirement by being a Master of Many Styles/Kata Master.
You are correct about the Immediate actions. I failed to account for Immediate action economy all over the place on this one. Not sure how I missed that. That sucks a bit as it eats in to his Swift action during his turn. On the plus side the only thing I have to use my Swift actions on my turn are starting Monkey Style and that is only once and using Deeds.
4. Ah, you are correct. The Step Up line only works when they 5ft step away, not Withdrawing. You are right here, however I would still get an attack on them from moving away due to the wording of Monkey Shine he would still provoke from moving away. In fact, I'm inclined to think that he would provoke due to Underfoot Assault as well. Right?
Well, this has all been valuable to me as it really removes the need of Sidestep altogether. I already have an ability that basically does the same thing with Underfoot Assault so I don't really need it and it eats into the same actions that my Step Up line of feats do.
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If you're not going to enter the space via Stunning Fist, the only other way I see you can enter a foe's square is if they attack you and if they miss and if you spend your immediate action and panache point to enter their square via Underfoot Assault--I see nothing else that negates that you can't enter an opponent's space.
It's my understanding that kitsune are medium, I'm not sure how you plan on mousing your way into medium creature's squares--which most opponents in PFS are.
The only rule that has a different enough wording than "movement only provokes once" would be this.
Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.
This is because it isn't the movement that provokes, but the act of entering the square. So they would both allow movement to provoke for leaving the square via a 5' step, which normally would avoid the AoO--but because it's movement I don't believe it would provoke twice.
So how do you plan on "just entering normally"? This works with the "songbird of doom" because of the bird's size. But I'm not sure how you're going to shrink yourself at least two sizes to be able to freely enter an opponent's space.
Also, the largest thing you can trip is one-size category larger than yourself. This may or may not matter.
Tiny opponents have to enter an opponent's space to attack them. They can always enter an opponent's space. Check the combat section under "very small creature". They just provoke AoOs from doing so. I plan on mitigating that with Acrobatics checks to tumble and Mobility combined with a sky high AC.
I will be taking Fox Shape. Foxes are Tiny.
Byakko: So you think you can get more than one AoO from movement. Hm. I figured that this would be a split topic.
2. No, that isn't right. Your attack always goes off before the provoking action. That is for the same reason you can't trip someone when they stand up because your attack goes off before they are standing.
3. Ok. See, that is how I believe it works too. Yes, it is movement that is causing it but it is actually triggered by "leaving your square" rather than the movement itself.
4. Yeah, I'm going to have a few resources to keep track of: Penache, AoOs and Immediate/Swift actions. Maybe I'll use checkers or something.
5. Well, it doesn't work but not for that reason. As stated the attacks from an AoO happen before the triggering action, not after. So that isn't the problem. But as claudekennilol pointed out I do not have the Immediate action economy to do all of this. I could, however, use Underfoot Assault or Dodging Penache on MY turn and do the rest on theirs.
Nah, talking about how many AoOs my character would get.
Hm... not sure if they can change where they are going after I have attacked. I suppose they could but I am thinking they are locked into going somewhere. *shrug*
Actually, it turns out I can't try to trip them. They are too big. :/ I guess I could try to disarm them. meh Anyway, I wouldn't use Dodging Penache to leave their square, I would use Underfoot Assault to move with them. Dodging Penache would just be used to up my AC.
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Tiny opponents have to enter an opponent's space to attack them. They can always enter an opponent's space. Check the combat section under "very small creature". They just provoke AoOs from doing so. I plan on mitigating that with Acrobatics checks to tumble and Mobility combined with a sky high AC.
I will be taking Fox Shape. Foxes are Tiny.
You're kidding, right? You mean check the part I quoted? If you read my post again it's pretty apparent I know about the size restrictions (or lifted restrictions, in this case) of moving into an opponent's squares. Obviously I'd forgotten about Fox shape, though, and I didn't think about that for your situation.
And I have to disagree with Byakko. I don't believe it's leaving the square that provokes, I believe the wording of monkey shine is specific so that the movement will provoke even if it's a five foot step--if it were leaving the square that provokes it would say that much more specifically (like with the wording for entering an opponent's space I quoted above). As for the mouser ability, that could cause its own provocation, but it's worded vague enough that it could be either way. Byakko seems to be overlooking that they both say "the movement provokes" and movement can only provoke once. So it's my very strong opinion that these abilities are simply worded in a way that allow five foot steps and withdrawals to provoke when they normally wouldn't--but they in no way override the rule for movement provoking only once.
Also don't forget that for parrying you get a -2 penalty on your attack roll for each size larger your opponent is.
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On rereading, I think claudekennilol may be right.
It's not specific enough to decisively say that an additional AoO is granted, and may simply be establishing they they provoke an AoO no matter how they leave, even with a 5' step.It's vague enough that it's probably best to err on the side of caution and assume you don't get additional AoOs here.
(my Mouser hasn't taken Combat Reflexes for just this reason)-------------
However, it's still possible to trigger multiple AoO off the same action, as long as they are triggered by different things.
Example:
If you take a full attack action with a bow, you provoke once for every arrow fired.
And another example (that's even somewhat relevant):
If you're a tiny creature approaching a large foe, you provoke once for traversing their threatened squares, and a second time for entering their square. This is in spite of the fact that both of these AoO result from the same move action. That's my understanding anyway, but you'll see table variation here too.
This I totally agree with. Another example of the same "thing" provoking more than once is greater trip + vicious stomp. Even though it's pretty much the same thing one is falling prone and the other is being tripped. So that provokes twice.
Think of it like this, each individual thing can only provoke once. Normally falling prone doesn't provoke--unless a nearby opponent has something like Vicious Stomp. For movement, technically the provocation is leaving a threatened square. Without further clarification, a single opponent can leave multiple threatened squares and provoke more than once by walking in a circle around you--but there's a special rule in place saying that it only provokes once each turn. The abilities you're using just let more kinds of movement provoke (just like how Vicious Stomp causes falling prone to provoke). I'm not trying to sound repetitive, but I don't see that your abilities cause moving to provoke more than once, they just allow more movement to provoke.
claudekennilol: You seem offended. I'm not sure why. You had said:
If you're not going to enter the space via Stunning Fist, the only other way I see you can enter a foe's square is if they attack you and if they miss and if you spend your immediate action and panache point to enter their square via Underfoot Assault--I see nothing else that negates that you can't enter an opponent's space.
That seemed like you were saying that I can't enter an opponent's square. This opinion was solidified later when you asked, "So how do you plan on 'just entering normally'?" I thought maybe you had misunderstood the rules for Tiny creatures. So I posted them.
So, um... yeah. I did mean for you to check the part you posted. I thought perhaps you had missed something as I didn't understand your confusion. Since then it appears that we are mostly on the same page. So... sorry about the confusion about your confusion? ;)
I understand that there are two ways of interpreting the wording of Monkey Shine. That is why I was posting.
My major point of contention I stated earlier. There is the rule that states that "specific overrides general". In this case the general rule would be you can only get a single AoO per provoking action. The specific rule would be the wording of the specific feats. Monkey Shine states, "...he provokes an attack of opportunity from you even if his choice of movement does not normally do so."
One interpretation of that is to say that because you have Underfoot Assault which says you would get an AoO if he left your square (which you normally wouldn't get but do because of that feat) that he still provokes from Monkey Shine even though you already took an AoO because the feat says that you get one even though you normally wouldn't because you already took your single AoO.
Another interpretation of it is to say that the wording in Monkey Shine was meant to do the same thing that Underfoot Assault does and grant you an AoO for something that you do not normally get an AoO for. And that it isn't meant to allow you for more than that single AoO.
IMO, one could easily come to either conclusion and have their opinion validated within the rules. I don't know which way it should be.
There is also the issue that if they provoke from moving out of my threatened square the first time and I follow them with the Step Up line of feats and they continue their move to leave my threatened square again. Do you think THAT would threaten another AoO? It is all part of the same movement but it is making them "leave my threatened square" a second time.
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It was mostly sarcasm and me pointing out that I was aware of that rule especially just because I just quoted it. Obviously sarcasm doesn't transfer well through plain text.That seemed like you were saying that I can't enter an opponent's square. This opinion was solidified later when you asked, "So how do you plan on 'just entering normally'?" I thought maybe you had misunderstood the rules for Tiny creatures. So I posted them.
So, um... yeah. I did mean for you to check the part you posted. I thought perhaps you had missed something as I didn't understand your confusion. Since then it appears that we are mostly on the same page. So... sorry about the confusion about your confusion? ;)
My major point of contention I stated earlier. There is the rule that states that "specific overrides general". In this case the general rule would be you can only get a single AoO per provoking action. The specific rule would be the wording of the specific feats. Monkey Shine states, "...he provokes an attack of opportunity from you even if his choice of movement does not normally do so."
One interpretation of that is to say that because you have Underfoot Assault which says you would get an AoO if he left your square (which you normally wouldn't get but do because of that feat) that he still provokes from Monkey Shine even though you already took an AoO because the feat says that you get one even though you normally wouldn't because you already took your single AoO.
Another interpretation of it is to say that the wording in Monkey Shine was meant to do the same thing that Underfoot Assault does and grant you an AoO for something that you do not normally get an AoO for. And that it isn't meant to allow you for more than that single AoO.
IMO, one could easily come to either conclusion and have their opinion validated within the rules. I don't know which way it should be.
You have two separate things that allow something to provoke that normally wouldn't provoke (withdraw or 5' step), just because you have two separate things that allow it to provoke doesn't mean it overrides that the same thing can't provoke twice.
There is also the issue that if they provoke from moving out of my threatened square the first time and I follow them with the Step Up line of feats and they continue their move to leave my threatened square again. Do you think THAT would threaten another AoO? It is all part of the same movement but it is making them "leave my threatened square" a second time.
You can only activate step up if your opponent takes a five foot step. If they take a five foot step, they can't "continue moving" because then they didn't take a 5' step. They either moved or took a 5' step--they can't do both. So if you had some other way to move into their space in the middle of their move (i.e. not step up) then I would still say it doesn't provoke again because those feats are allowing the movement to provoke--they never say "leaving your square provokes" like the wording about "entering a square" provokes.
You may be able to convince someone that the wording for Monkey Shine does mean that, but I don't see it. If you interpret Monkey Shine to mean that "leaving the square" provokes instead of movement provoking, then you would get two AoOs--one for leaving your square, and one for leaving a threatened square.
Well, you weren't holding up your sign. ;)
You have two separate things that allow something to provoke that normally wouldn't provoke (withdraw or 5' step), just because you have two separate things that allow it to provoke doesn't mean it overrides that the same thing can't provoke twice.
Well, I know you say this. But we both know that there is that whole "specific overrides general" rule that I was mentioning before. I can see a valid argument being made stating that the specific is the text in the feats and the general would be the "only one AoO per provoking action" bit.
And yeah, I think they both say that the movement is what provokes. I'm not arguing that, for sure. I guess that it is more that there are two different specific abilities that are giving an AoO even though it comes from one action. I know there are exceptions to the "only one AoO per provoking action" thing but there is no hard way of determining what qualifies for that. It seems possible that this is one.
I wouldn't let you take two AoOs for the same action unless there was something in either one of the abilities that said something along the lines of "this AoO is in addition any other AoO provoked by the action."
BTW, Mouser combined with anything that grants teamwork feats plus the teamwork feat Paired Opportunists is a devastating combination.
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Well, you weren't holding up your sign. ;)
You have two separate things that allow something to provoke that normally wouldn't provoke (withdraw or 5' step), just because you have two separate things that allow it to provoke doesn't mean it overrides that the same thing can't provoke twice.Well, I know you say this. But we both know that there is that whole "specific overrides general" rule that I was mentioning before. I can see a valid argument being made stating that the specific is the text in the feats and the general would be the "only one AoO per provoking action" bit.
And yeah, I think they both say that the movement is what provokes. I'm not arguing that, for sure. I guess that it is more that there are two different specific abilities that are giving an AoO even though it comes from one action. I know there are exceptions to the "only one AoO per provoking action" thing but there is no hard way of determining what qualifies for that. It seems possible that this is one.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. Neither one has a "general". One has a specific "the same thing can't provoke more than once" and the other two have a specific "This thing that normally doesn't provoke now provokes". They're specific that just aren't really related. Just because you have two of the latter specifics doesn't mean the former specific is negated.
Well, it is less "This thing that normally doesn't provoke now provokes" and more "...he provokes an attack of opportunity from you even if his choice of movement does not normally do so."
I understand you are saying that his choice of movement would not normally do so. This is both because 5' steps and Withdraw actions do not provoke. It is also because you can already have taken an AoO with Underfoot Assault. But Monkey Shine doesn't care why it wouldn't normally do so. It just says, "...he provokes an attack of opportunity from you even if his choice of movement does not normally do so."
Know what I mean?
I get your opinion. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I can see both sides and your opinion is totally valid, too.
So... your argument is that his movement would not normally provoke an AoO because it has already provoked?
Multiple triggering conditions = multiple AoOs. It's that simple. You get an AoO for every feat or ability which has a met trigger condition.
Doomed Hero: Just playing devil's advocate here... is that still true even if the feats both describe the triggering condition being "movement"?
I mean, I know that Vicious Stomp and Greater Trip trigger off "tripping someone" and "someone going prone next to you" which are subtly (but perhaps importantly) different. But that seems fairly similar to the current discussion.
Vicious Stomp triggers when someone goes prone. Greater Trip triggers upon a successful trip attempt (which is before they actually go prone, and doesn't actually necessarily involve going prone at all). They are separate triggers and both happen independently of each other.
In this case, the movement causes two different triggers also.