Kingdom Building and Technological Advancement


Homebrew and House Rules

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I’m potentially running a post-Earthfall/Age of Darkness game where the PCs build up an empire from the ruins of civilization using the Kingdom building rules in Ultimate Campaign. As part of this, I’m trying to overlay a technology tree (similar to the Civilization PC games) over the empire’s development to give the feel of dragging humanity back from the brink of extinction (“The Aboleth bombed us back to the stone age!”).

Here is the Player’s Guide I have developed so far.

What does everyone think? I'm looking for feedback, particularly around any loopholes, campaign-killing exploits or generally un-fun parts which I have overlooked.


Looks really great and fun!

A few things were unclear to me:
- How is the technology tree shaped? A graphic would be nice.
- I didn't understand how the PCs could get higher-level starting characters and more starting equipment. Or at least the rules were hazy to me.
- What is the time-frame? Should the campaign be stretched over 200 years? Is aging of PCs a thing?

And an idea:
- Dynasties and families. Incorporating rules about having kids and inheriting traits or such things. Even material goods like heirloom weapons and spellbooks. That is something you almost never see.

Overall, a great concept and I really love the idea. But then, I was always a sucker for Civ-Games.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Jeremias wrote:

Looks really great and fun!

A few things were unclear to me:
- How is the technology tree shaped? A graphic would be nice.
- I didn't understand how the PCs could get higher-level starting characters and more starting equipment. Or at least the rules were hazy to me.
- What is the time-frame? Should the campaign be stretched over 200 years? Is aging of PCs a thing?

And an idea:
- Dynasties and families. Incorporating rules about having kids and inheriting traits or such things. Even material goods like heirloom weapons and spellbooks. That is something you almost never see.

Overall, a great concept and I really love the idea. But then, I was always a sucker for Civ-Games.

Thanks for having a look Jeremias.

- The technology tree is the very last page (pg 26. Hiding behind the walls-of-text technology descriptions).
- Page 4 under Characters --> Experience, 1 BP can be traded for 1,000 XP. As you create a batch of characters you can also provide them equipment as a bulk lot, or withdraw BP as per normal rules (inciting Unrest) to kit out characters
- The timeframe is planned to be pretty long, with generations and family dynasties coming into play.

That's an interesting point about families and inheriting traits. Maybe modifiers to ability scores based on that of the parents. Something like the "racial" bonus is (father's ability mod + mother's ability mod)/2.

I would guess fitting out your heirs would come out of your own purse, or by withdrawing BP from those filthy peasants (maybe making the "Rich Parents" trait mandatory if this is greater than starting gold).


Concerning just the tech, I hate to suggest such a major revision but, it seems that the tech web format used in Beyond Earth would be a better model for the way the techs are clustered, not as large as the one in beyond Earth but a similar pattern.

maybe I'm missed it, but how much of the map is known before the kingdom is founded? It would be really frustrating to found the kingdom in one hex and discover 10 years later that the next hex over would have been a better choice for the type of kingdom the party wanted to create.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

cnetarian wrote:

Concerning just the tech, I hate to suggest such a major revision but, it seems that the tech web format used in Beyond Earth would be a better model for the way the techs are clustered, not as large as the one in beyond Earth but a similar pattern.

maybe I'm missed it, but how much of the map is known before the kingdom is founded? It would be really frustrating to found the kingdom in one hex and discover 10 years later that the next hex over would have been a better choice for the type of kingdom the party wanted to create.

I was going with a Civ II-like tech tree mainly because of the nostalgia value with my cohort of players. It will be an easier sell if it's something that's familiar to them.

I had planned on only one hex being available immediately (the one I think is the best!), but I'll warn them to have a scout around first before they settle permanently.


I was thinking for family lines, make a child's score in any attribute = 1/3 mother's score + 1/3 father score + 1d6. Then I thought about how using wishes and points from leveling this could create distortion where a 24 INT mage marries a 21 INT husband and has a child with an INT of 16-21, who can get to level 20 and use 5 wishes to have an INT of 26-31 and marries a INT 24 woman to have a child with an INT of 19-24 ... . The more I thought of this and the probability of players using this the more I realized that instead of being a problem it would probably be a fun feature. There would be one family with incredible STR which were breed to be warriors, another family breed to be wizards and so forth. Throw a limit on inbreeding (no marriage 2nd cousin or closer) and the families would scour the kingdom for the most intelligent/strongest/beautiful mates for their children and cast wishes on them to have even better grandchildren. maybe you don't want to this, but I think it would be fun to have carefully breed overspecialized dynasties with 32 STR warriors.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

cnetarian wrote:

I was thinking for family lines, make a child's score in any attribute = 1/3 mother's score + 1/3 father score + 1d6. Then I thought about how using wishes and points from leveling this could create distortion where a 24 INT mage marries a 21 INT husband and has a child with an INT of 16-21, who can get to level 20 and use 5 wishes to have an INT of 26-31 and marries a INT 24 woman to have a child with an INT of 19-24 ... . The more I thought of this and the probability of players using this the more I realized that instead of being a problem it would probably be a fun feature. There would be one family with incredible STR which were breed to be warriors, another family breed to be wizards and so forth. Throw a limit on inbreeding (no marriage 2nd cousin or closer) and the families would scour the kingdom for the most intelligent/strongest/beautiful mates for their children and cast wishes on them to have even better grandchildren. maybe you don't want to this, but I think it would be fun to have carefully breed overspecialized dynasties with 32 STR warriors.

"Dad, why did you invite the Frost Giants to the royal ball again?"

*Coughs uncomfortably* "No reason. Isn't Helga looking lovely this evening...?"

The alternative is that the kids are 3d6 in order, just like everyone else, and you end up with flawed monarchs who are ripe for usurpation by charismatic heroes. (Insert internal strife fun here)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

New idea: XP track (slow, medium, fast) is linked to technologies as well. Not sure whether to link to "Chivalry" and "Leadership", or add extra technologies (Sagas + Feudalism = "Heroic Epic"; Theology + Leadership = "Divine Champion").

This allows 2nd and 3rd generation PCs to gain levels faster and accelerate the rate of gameplay in later epochs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dementrius wrote:

I’m potentially running a post-Earthfall/Age of Darkness game where the PCs build up an empire from the ruins of civilization using the Kingdom building rules in Ultimate Campaign. As part of this, I’m trying to overlay a technology tree (similar to the Civilization PC games) over the empire’s development to give the feel of dragging humanity back from the brink of extinction (“The Aboleth bombed us back to the stone age!”).

Here is the Player’s Guide I have developed so far.

What does everyone think? I'm looking for feedback, particularly around any loopholes, campaign-killing exploits or generally un-fun parts which I have overlooked.

Technology in the pre-Industrial age, advanced over millennia between significant changes. Unless you're playing a game that spans many generations, it's not going to happen fast enough to make a difference. Especially with magic taking over so many of it's usual functions.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

LazarX wrote:
Technology in the pre-Industrial age, advanced over millennia between significant changes. Unless you're playing a game that spans many generations, it's not going to happen fast enough to make a difference. Especially with magic taking over so many of it's usual functions.

The idea is that it will span many generations, in that it takes ages to get anything done in the beginning (until you learn how to make maps or construct masonry, or have a decent government system). Also, it does not map completely true to our pre-Industrial age, as there are still relics of lost technology available to jump start the advancement process.

But your point about the rate of progress is well taken - and I'll need to keep an eye on the rate to keep a balance between too slow progress (which is boring) and too fast progress (which is immersion-breaking)

Note that the technology tree includes magical advancement as well (starting out with only 0-level spells) which give the Kingdom the option of being completely magic-focussed, balanced, or completely magic ignorant if the PCs want.

If the PCs focus just on magic - good! They've chosen to have fun re-creating the Thassalonian empire and its wacky mage-antics.

If they focus on martial stuff - good! They've chosen to have fun building a low-magic medieval-style kingdom where you kill dragons by riding at them with a lance.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just to give you an idea of how the rate of change is now as opposed to the past.

Something like about 80-90 percent of known science was discovered within yours or your parent's lifetime. Pretty much the same for technology as well.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

LazarX wrote:

Just to give you an idea of how the rate of change is now as opposed to the past.

Something like about 80-90 percent of known science was discovered within yours or your parent's lifetime. Pretty much the same for technology as well.

My perspective is that humanity would presumably pick things up a bit faster during a re-building phase where there are isolated people with the information passed down through generations, plus ruins and documents available, rather than discovering it all for the first time.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dementrius wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Just to give you an idea of how the rate of change is now as opposed to the past.

Something like about 80-90 percent of known science was discovered within yours or your parent's lifetime. Pretty much the same for technology as well.

My perspective is that humanity would presumably pick things up a bit faster during a re-building phase where there are isolated people with the information passed down through generations, plus ruins and documents available, rather than discovering it all for the first time.

Isolation was why progress was so slow.. Individual civilizations would make discoveries and then die without passing them on, so it was a long slow process with lots of repetition. When we got to the point where knowledge was readily shared, with the invention of print, things really started taking off.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

LazarX wrote:
Isolation was why progress was so slow.. Individual civilizations would make discoveries and then die without passing them on, so it was a long slow process with lots of repetition. When we got to the point where knowledge was readily shared, with the invention of print, things really started taking off.

QFT.

Spoiler:
When the Orcs and Dwarves arrive out of the Darklands, they're going to wish they still had their slow progress and isolation.


Interesting idea

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Craft (maps): 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (19) + 3 = 22

Starting Hex

Overall Map - Spoilers!


This has actually got me to go back to civ 3 to add in magic tech advancements and units.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Milo v3 wrote:
This has actually got me to go back to civ 3 to add in magic tech advancements and units.

Have a look at the Midgard Scenario for Civ II: Test of Time. It's got the whole Ragnarok/fantasy thing going on.


Dementrius wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
This has actually got me to go back to civ 3 to add in magic tech advancements and units.
Have a look at the Midgard Scenario for Civ II: Test of Time. It's got the whole Ragnarok/fantasy thing going on.

That would require money. Tabletop and Video games I already have are much cheaper ways to do it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is an awesome idea! Combining tabletop turn-based Pathfinder goodness with some Civilization-esque kingdom-building and technological rediscovery, with a bit of Rogue Legacy with passing character stats/gear/progress from generation to generation... this is pushing a lot of my "like" buttons.

I don't think I'd ever run this system; not sure if I'd even play in it. I just don't have the time to devote to a system this complicated; definitely not during school. Still, this sounds great!

Oh, right, how to improve it. Well... it'll take some time for me to run the numbers to see how fast/slow the game progresses. The "NPC classes only, almost no gear, almost no bonuses" start seems painfully slow, but I'm more used to mid-level play. Besides, anyone rebuilding civilization has got to start somewhere, right? Other than that, no real problems I can think of!


Ability Inheritance:
I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Maybe for every 4-6 points over average give the kids a +1 to this particular score? Averaged between both spouses...
Or you take a very simplistic model of the Mendelian inheritance. So you would have kids which would resemble mother or father.

Scientific advancement:
The more stringent advancement tree of older Civ Games is how we see it from our modern POV, the Civ Web is more realistic. But "keeping it simple" would sugggest to use the older tree.

Then there was the question of the speed of scientific advancement. Sure, modern research is faster (maybe because of a bigger population and less people needed to be farmers), but there was a lot of advancement on most stages in history. Metallurgy and architecture comes to mind, just look at the transition of metal weapons in the middle ages or the transition of romanesque churches to gothic churches. Or look at the 200 years from 150 BC to 50 AC in the roman empire. Completely changed political landscape, military structure, philosophical leanings, etc. And there were a lot of people who were firmly opposed to every change...
What I'm trying to say: 200 years can be a long time in real history. If you have no qualms about marching forward and being progressive, consequences be damned, you can get from the first human body reflex (pupil reflex, 1751) and Franklins kite experiment (1752) to nuclear weapons and human flight (1951). And thats truly impressive.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Jeremias wrote:

Ability Inheritance:

I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Maybe for every 4-6 points over average give the kids a +1 to this particular score? Averaged between both spouses...
Or you take a very simplistic model of the Mendelian inheritance. So you would have kids which would resemble mother or father.

I'm probably just going to let the +2 bonus from being human be representitive of whatever genetics mumbo-jumbo the PCs want to get.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

...treading water, waiting for our awesome Carrion Crown campaign to finish.

Made a title credits intro in the mean time.

Too much time on my hands... probably.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Kingdom Building and Technological Advancement All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules