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Harsk: Yo Meri, ya see tha brand new class decks they made fer us?
Merisiel: Yeah, some interesting new stuff to play with!
Harsk: Let's see what ya got!
*flips through Meri's cards*
WTH! You get a Shock Longbow+1 as a B?
WTH WTH?!? Deathbane Crossbow as a 1?!? And Lt Crossbow+1 as a 2?!?
I didna even get a Lt Crossbow+1.
Hmmm … you get a Venomous Hvy Crossbow+2?
I gotta call customer service.
OMG what happened to my allies. You get Archer as B and mine is a 2. They left out my Black Arrow Ranger and Elven Sharpshooter completely!
*****
Seriously, this is the first time I started actually comparing the class decks. I was initially disappointed with the Ranger Class Deck. As a Harsk fan, I felt like the ranged weapons were geared for dex and str rather than more purely dex. But I have no clue why some of the better ranged weapons and allies were left out of the deck. No Venomous?!? No Black Arrow Ranger?!?
Hmmm, I should be picking up the Ranger deck from my local store today after work (along with Sorcerer and Wizard so I'll have all seven). Looking over the character sheets over and over, I've begun to lean more towards playing Agna than Harsk. If the ranged options are as underwhelming as you say, that may solidify the choice. I may try playing Harsk as well if I end up creating more than seven characters.
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I was concerned when I first looked at the ranger deck at GenCon. But it was shiny and new and I was dazzled. But last night I was looking at what characters would be good to compliment each other for organized play sessions. And it was the first time I was really looking at the rogue deck. And it was ... WTF?!? Then I opened up my ranger deck and saw the disservice they did to Arbalist role that I was going to go with. Bows rather than crossbows mostly so you have to be concerned with strength. A weapon like the Venomous that should be in there but isn't (not even a Lt Crossbow+1). And the Black Arrow Ranger and/or Elven Sharpshooter missing. The ranger deck is definitely designed around the other rangers and not for the Harsk Arbalist role. If it wasn't against the rules, I'd grab cards out of the rogue deck for Harsk. LOL
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Yeah, people were talking about the issue of only having 110 cards (only 97 boons) to support 4 distinct characters per class deck in this thread. Someone threw out an idea of multiclassing the decks. I think it'd be a nice OP reward if it's possible. Maybe something as a reward at the end of Adventure 2 or Adventure 3: "Each player may add the boons from a second Class Deck to their characters' Class Decks."
That can probably be worded better, and if it did become a thing it would probably need to be explained in more detail in the OP Guide, but it could really add a deeper variety to the characters populating the Card Guild world. We could have your Harsk (Arbalist) Ranger/Rogue as well as Zarlova (Theurge) Cleric/Wizard, Flenta (Arcane Pretender) Fighter/Sorcerer, etc.
Well, in that same thread, it looks like Mike at least is well aware of the issue.
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Yeah, just read the rest of the thread. (I had stopped reading it because I thought it was still about the original post. Oh well.)
I brought it up because it does seem like a limitation that can hamper which characters you'd want to play. You open the deck and immediately look at the character and role cards and think ... WOW, I can't wait to play this one. But when you dig into the deck to see what cards are supporting it ... meh.
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I say, just sell me some "boon decks." A weapons deck, a spell deck, etc. And then, if there are concerns about not wanting any character to have access to every single boon, just make a list that says
Character played from the Ranger Class deck can also add the following cards from boon decks:
Weapons: Light Crosswbow +1, Venemous Heavy Crossbow +2
Spells: blah, blah, blah,
Allies: Black Arrow Ranger, blah, blah, blah.
Stuff like that.
There might be logistical problems or what not with it. But if they did do something like that I'd totally buy it. Not just for organized play but also for adding cards to other adventure paths.
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I say, just sell me some "boon decks." A weapons deck, a spell deck, etc. And then, if there are concerns about not wanting any character to have access to every single boon, just make a list that says
Character played from the Ranger Class deck can also add the following cards from boon decks:
Weapons: Light Crosswbow +1, Venemous Heavy Crossbow +2
Spells: blah, blah, blah,
Allies: Black Arrow Ranger, blah, blah, blah.Stuff like that.
There might be logistical problems or what not with it. But if they did do something like that I'd totally buy it. Not just for organized play but also for adding cards to other adventure paths.
Okay ... holy crap ... was just typing this up in the other thread. What if there were expansion decks of just boons that supplement the class decks. Same card size (110), same price point ($19.99) as class decks but fills in the holes that some people are having with the base class decks. Plus it should work moving forward with new (class) decks.
I actually did talk to Tanis about this on Monday briefly.
When I opened up the Ranger deck, my reaction was "Well, okay, I can build a deck out of these cards... and I have 1 choice. Well, that makes it easy." Tanis mentioned the space on these decks was a little too tight.
The issue I think with a generic "boon deck" is that people who aren't into the card game as much as we are are going to be like "how do I build a deck? Help!!!" and having the sheets limiting the boons means more accounting for organizers in OP.
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We already have people asking about "Why do I need to buy a class deck if I have the base set?" questions. You're always going to get questions about the products and what they're used for. You put on the box that this is an expansion that requires a class deck.
As far as building decks with the expansion, I think one of the issues is that certain classes get specific cards at different levels. Deathbane Xbow is a 1 for rogues and a 2 for rangers. No idea why. Archer ally is a B for rogues and a 2 for rangers. Really no idea why. So the issue of card levels is pretty much out-the-door. I would have preferred that the same card was the same level across all classes.
And I think the purpose of the boon expansion decks would be to get around the issues and limitations of the current class decks. Weapons, spells, armors, etc. that are already in the current class decks but maybe not in every class deck. And a sheet for that expansion deck.
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I definitely support the idea of Class Deck Expansions, although I'd prefer they be geared to a specific purpose/theme and be 55 card decks instead of the full 110 pack. There'd be one card explaining how the expansion is used with the other 54 cards being the boons, which I think will be plenty. That'd be 7-8 cards per deck level (B through 6). Some examples of what I'm thinking:
Ranged Combat Class Deck Expansion:
-Primary focus would be having a good deal of ranged based weapons, probably about 5 per deck level, with about an even mix of bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons.
-Secondary cards would include a few armor cards that help with ranged combat (maybe 2-4 in the whole deck), a few items like Archer's Bracers (maybe 3-6 total), some allies like Archer, Black Arrow Ranger and Elven Sharpshooter (again, about 3-6 total), and a couple of Blessings of Erastil to round things out.
-Used to supplement ranged weapon heavy characters like Harsk, or characters that just happen to have a better dexterity than strength, but don't get many weapon options in their class deck.
Melee Combat Class Deck Expansion:
-See Ranged Expansion, replacing range focus with melee focus.
-Have a good mix of different types of weapons (finesse, 2-handed, offhand, polearm, piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning); that's actually a lot of types to cover, so maybe have fewer other cards than described in the Ranged Expansion.
-Used to supplement characters that don't get enough of specific types of weapons in their class deck like Tontelizi, Vika, and finesse bards.
Arcane Magic Class Deck Expansion:
-Primary focus would be arcane type spells with a mix of arcane staples and fancy new stuff, also a mix of ones that have that also have the divine trait and those that are arcane exclusive.
-Secondary cards would include a few armor cards that aren't entirely stupid for dedicated magic users, some cool arcane items like wands and staves, a few good allies and blessings to round things out.
-Used to give Zarlova, Flenta, and bards more arcane options and a little more variety to sorcerers and wizards.
Firearm Class Deck Expansion:
-Primary focus would be on firearm weapons.
-Secondary cards would include some items Powder Horn and other kinds of support cards.
-Used for any player who enjoys how firearms work and want to use them with their ranged characters, or Lem (S&S - Freebooter).
Now, I really hope Paizo is considering something like this, but even if they are thinking about it right now we will likely not see them until the next set of Class Decks start rolling out in, what, February? In the mean time, I think being able to "multiclass" you deck would be a very good solution for now.
The simple but probaly unpopular option would be to have only 2 or three characters in a class deck.
Now you have a few more cards and less different options you need to fill.
Doing a boon deck for OP would be difficult. The class decks all say what deck they are from so any expansion cards would also have to say that so you can sort out who owns what card after the game. That limits the usfulness of any boon decks.
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The simple but probaly unpopular option would be to have only 2 or three characters in a class deck.
Now you have a few more cards and less different options you need to fill.Doing a boon deck for OP would be difficult. The class decks all say what deck they are from so any expansion cards would also have to say that so you can sort out who owns what card after the game. That limits the usfulness of any boon decks.
I think three would have given enough diversity but allowed for a better spread of cards (maybe).
It becomes a lot easier to use class decks (and expansion decks) if you're sleeving. You can even mark the sleeve if you're using the same ones as someone else or as the base set. Usually only a very few cases where you put your own card into a location deck. I carry extra sleeves of both my class decks and my base set. (Yes, I use two different sleeves.)
Doing a boon deck for OP would be difficult. The class decks all say what deck they are from so any expansion cards would also have to say that so you can sort out who owns what card after the game. That limits the usefulness of any boon decks.
The way I'd envisioned having expansions would be that either all expansion cards would have the same identifying banner (something like "Neutral Class Deck") and it'd be a free-for-all letting any character pick as many cards from whatever expansion they'd like. Or the expansions would have specific identifiers (like "Melee Expansion", "Ranged Expansion", "Arcane Expansion", "Firearm Expansion", etc.) and the OP rules would state that each character deck can only include one expansion type.
I've said it before, the issue of having players with the same identifier on their cards can already come up. There is nothing in the OP rules that currently limits what class decks each player can use in any given game. Yes, it's recommended that you don't have a table full of Fighter characters, but there is nothing in the rules against it.
I don't think it is too much to ask for players to note the 15-20 cards that are included in their OP decks when people are playing cards from the same source, be they the same class deck or a hypothetical deck expansions.
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Part of what's nice about OP is that it's the same for everyone. Everyone buys one $20, and no one has a distinct advantage over anyone else. I'm all for including more, or better, cards in each box, but I think giving people the option to buy more decks and have an advantage over other players is a terrible and unfair idea.
I don't see it that way at all. This is a cooperative game, so saying this like "a distinct advantage over anyone else" just doesn't really fit to me. This isn't a competition.
Because of how the class decks are currently set up, there will already be Class Deck and Character choices that are better off in OP than others. If done correctly, adding expansions to make a better variety of cards available (not better cards in power level) will only balance out characters that rely one specific types of cards.
Another thought to expand on what I'd envision for these card expansions: Don't make any B type cards, or at the very least don't make any Basic B cards. All OP characters will always be on equal footing when they start out, before they get any deck upgrades.
Ehh, if we were to draw an analogy to PFS, someone who has all the sourcebooks has a distinct advantage over someone who only has the CRB (minimum you need to play at a table).
I could see an "Adventurer's Armory" style expansion - I wish they could add the class tops right on the card itself (to make IDing and deck checking easier) - but that could get ugly fast. WoW TCG has that issue and it only has 9 classes. We'll have 30 when this is done!
I really like the idea of multi-classing with a character by allowing them access to a second class deck box at a certain point during OP. I think that would open up the options to create unique, more fleshed out, characters while still maintaining the limited number of options intended by the designers of the class decks. Plus I really like the idea of using what I already have (the 7 Class Decks) to make a better OP character instead of having to shell out still more cash on specialized expansion decks.
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I had pushed off the idea about multi-classing for a while and came back to it after some thought.
I feel that there are some distinct issues with multi-classing in PACG.
Let's start with skills. Skills are designed very differently than RPG. From the base die to the added skill bonuses (Melee, Arcane, Knowledge) Those are both bonuses and limitations of the class/character you're picking. I see no real way of multi-classing skills without breaking both classes.
So let's say you can't multi-class skills. You're stuck with your base class. We'll skip Power feats and come back to that. Card feats. You're Ezren that has no blessings. Can't. Never will. Multi-class with a cleric. How do you mix the card feats? You got to pull some of the wizards to incorporate the cleric's card feats. I don't see a good method.
Okay, thrown out skill feats and card feats. So we'll multi-class Power feats. It seems like that is the only avenue for multi-classing since they can be separated and combined. But then they have to be policed because you could pick opposing power feats that shouldn't work together in order to bypass restrictions.
And so the options for multi-classing really are shared power feat pools and cards. And then you need to mark your cards so there isn't a chance that your cleric class cards get mixed with the actual cleric that is playing.
So while the idea for multi-classing is intriguing, I don't think PACG and PFSACG is well designed for it.
Well, when I suggest multi-classing, cards are the only thing I was thinking about. Just add the cards from a second deck to your Class Deck pool to increase the different kinds of cards your character can pull from.
I also don't see any need for marking your cards. As I've said many times, you can legally have a whole table full of players using the same class deck for a scenario. In these cases, just make sure players keep track of what cards are in their decks via deck list PDFs. In my experience, cards don't move among players very often. How often do you see characters actually use the "give a card" option? When I've played, this was usually only even thought about when a character has newly acquired a card that isn't useful for them. I don't really see deck multi-classing causing any real "problems" that aren't already possible in the game.
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There are times when you're told to put a card (boon) from your hand into a location deck. There is the potential for cards getting mixed up. (Especially with new players!)
After spouting about Print-on-Demand in another thread, a boon deck might fit that format as well. Instead of Paizo needing to have setup and cost for producing a product like that, it could be a PoD item.
And, btw, I would love to multi-class my rogue deck into my ranger for his Arbalist role. There are plenty of crossbows in the rogue deck. (After all, Arbalist is not a bowman but a crossbowman.)
There are times when you're told to put a card (boon) from your hand into a location deck. There is the potential for cards getting mixed up. (Especially with new players!)
Yes, I know there are different situations other than giving cards that can take cards out of a character's deck. But many of them are situational and not that common, like only happening when you close a location. Usually it is pretty simple to find out whose card it is because someone will have one less card than they should. And again, this doesn't change the fact that this can already happen without introducing multi-classing. Adding multi-classing may make it a little more common, but not likely by much since the situations don't happen that often to begin with.
I would prefer actual new cards to introduce, but even if Paizo did decide to make new cards, it would almost certainly not make it into production by the end of this season. And Print-on-Demand could be interesting as you could have a bigger verity of cards. Instead of having a big boon expansion as you suggest, or the smaller boon expansions of different categories as I would like, You could have many different boon expansions that could all have the correct Class Deck banner. You could have a 20 card pack of Ranger cards for more ranged weapon options, or another 20 card pack of Ranger cards for more melee weapon options (as two of the Ranger characters are Ranged based while the other two are melee based). However, something like that may make the game start to feel a little too CCG for my tastes.
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While new cards would be nice, my thoughts were that if you take currently printed cards from the class decks already (not the base set) and throw them into this "boon" pool of cards along with the appropriate levels, then it would be easier to produce quickly especially before we hit Adv Deck 4 and the roles. Plus a Print-on-Demand model would make them that much more accessible.
Looking forward, yes, I'd like different cards. But I'm looking at the now and the near future to help the potential problems with class deck card pools.
When I mentioned Multi-classing what I meant was letting one class deck character have access to the cards in 2 class decks at some point on the journey. My basic thought was that at the end of one of the adventure decks you get limited access to a second class deck. Not quite sure how the mechanics would work. Possible it could be up to the player to choose another class deck or it could be list of available decks based on character or the character's role card. Card access to the second deck could be limited to 1 or 2 levels below the current adventure level. Considering that all these cards are already available to pretty much any character you choose in a non-OP game I'm not sure this would inherently unbalance the game (but I might be horribly wrong on that...) but I can't see it being any worse than adding a whole bunch of mini expansions.