The hat's description doesn't say that it has a limited duration, or that it may only be used a certain number of times per day, so I think it can be used to disguise yourself indefinitely. As long as it has you looking different you should get the +10 to any disguise skill checks.
I'm not sure what "Sacred" means. Do you mean Holy? If so, the entry for the Holy weapon property has a caster level of 7. In the magic item creation rules it says:
The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
So you only have to meet the higher prerequisite. You don't treat the effective +2 bonus as an enhancement bonus. The +2 is just there to tell you how much it should cost, and how many abilities you can stack on it before it caps out (it can't be more than +10).
Hope that helps.
Note that caster level requirements are something that can be bypassed when creating a magic item, by adding +5 to the DC to craft the item. It is entirely possible for a 5th level character to make a +5 sword (caster level 15).
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
Hats of disguise and similar magical items that do not expressly state a duration or uses per day generally last indefinitely (or until removed or deactivated). Another example of an item that works this way is the ring of invisibility.
The caster level listed with a magical item is not normally a prerequisite for its creation (exceptions abound), save to calculate the crafting DC. A magical item crafter may bypass a given prerequisite by adding +5 to the crafting DC (a few exceptions that I recall are the CL for spell trigger items, such as wands and staves, and spell completion items, such as scrolls; also, the CL prerequisite for construct creatures and potions may not be bypassed in this manner) and these increases to the DC stack (so if you do not possess three of the four spells required by a magical item, the DC increases by +15, for example).
For example, if I wanted to enhance my +1 battleaxe into a +1 holy battleaxe , I would have to pay the cost difference (8,000gp), spend 16 days working on it, and would have to make a skill check (usually Spellcraft) against a DC of 12. Normally, a weapon has a caster level equal to its enhancement bonus x 3, or the caster level of it's most powerful property, whichever is higher. As a +1 battleaxe, it should have CL 3rd, but since we are adding the holy property to it, it will increase to CL 7th (since that is what is listed under the holy weapon property).
Note that I do not need to actually have CL 7th to craft this item, since CL 7th is not listed under the prerequisites (it's actually listed before the prerequisites, and thus isn't one). However, I do need to possess at least CL 3rd, since the enhancement modifier x 3 rule IS considered a prerequisite (you can find this rule here under Creating Magic Weapons; a similar rule also exists for armor). That is likely a non-issue though, since you can't take Craft Arms and Armor until CL 5th anyways. Even if you didn't meet that particular CL prerequisite for some reason, you could just add +5 to the craft DC to bypass it entirely. Note also that you cannot bypass feat prerequisites in this manner (such as Craft Magic Arms and Armor itself). You can also take 10 on that craft check since you are generally no distracted or under immediate threat while crafting, making most magical crafting products exceedingly easy unless you are missing a lot of the prerequisites.
That was more drawn out than I intended. I hope it makes sense to you.
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as with a disguise self spell
I have always ruled that this means that wearing the hat was use activated and added an enhancement bonus to disguise exactly as the spell does, however that is not explicit in the rule. However being that there is nothing in the description limiting the number of times per day, the wearer could simply reactivate the item at will prior to the expiration of the previous effect causing the durations to overlap without stacking the effect.
If you want to rule it this way its up to you, it would potentially allow a spellcraft check for anyone present when the item is activated.
A good point of reference would be the base price of the item: 1800gp
A use activated or continuous use item for a level one spell would cost 2000gp for a custom item. Spell Level x Caster Level x 2000gp Assuming the creator cast the spell at level 1. This means that buying the stock item Hat of disguise comes at a 200gp discount which is fairly consistent with stock items. Given this information, I would be more likely to rule in favor of the player.
as with a disguise self spellA good point of reference would be the base price of the item: 1800gp
A use activated or continuous use item for a level one spell would cost 2000gp for a custom item. Spell Level x Caster Level x 2000gp Assuming the creator cast the spell at level 1. This means that buying the stock item Hat of disguise comes at a 200gp discount which is fairly consistent with stock items. Given this information, I would be more likely to rule in favor of the player.
Hat of Disguise is formulated for "Command word use" on the Create Magic items chart (1x1x1800g) though it doesn't list a times per day in the description. That would lead me to say that you "use" the hat to cast Disguise Self. Meaning that it only lasts for 10 minutes at a time, but could be used unlimited times per day.
It would cost 3000g ((1x1x2000)x1.5(for 10m/level)) to be "Use activated or continuous". Though again, that is the "standard" and many items break that.
We have always played that a Hat of Disguise lasts until you change the disguise or dismiss it (or if you are unable to renew the duration for some reason).
I was always under the impression that a Ring of Invisibility would grant invisibilty an unlimited number of times per day, each instance lasting a maximum of three minutes, since it's a CL3 item and Invisibility, the spell upon which the Ring is based, lasts one minute per caster level.
The primary reason it works the way it does is because of legacy. This is the way hats of disguise and rings of invisibility have always worked.
I'm not familiar with that legacy. I played 3.5, but never understood the Ring of Invisibility to work that way then, either.
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For what its worth, the 3.5 FAQ states that when a magic item duplicates a spell, it only lasts for the duration of the spell at a caster level equal to the item.
In the case of a ring (or any other item) that duplicates a spell effect, one activation functions for the same duration as the duplicated spell cast by a character of the ring’s caster level. For example, when you activate a ring of blinking you will blink for up to 7 rounds since the ring’s caster level is 7th. Since blink is a dismissible spell, you can use a standard action to deactivate the effect sooner if you like. In some cases, an item’s description specifies a different duration for a spell effect. For example, when you activate a ring of spell turning, the ring turns the next nine levels of spell cast on you, no matter how long that takes.
If you activate an item again before a previous activation runs out, the two durations overlap, they do not stack. For example, of you active a ring of blinking and blink for 3 rounds, then activate it again, you wind up blinking for 10 rounds in total. In the case of a ring of spell turning, a new activation would mean the ring would turn the next nine levels of spells cast on you after the second activation (any unused turning from the previous activation would be lost).
The 1st edition DMG says rings spell-like abilities function as 12th level of magic use unless the power requires a higher level of magic use. And the Ring of Invisibility says it functions exactly as the spell (with the exception that some rings have an added effect). That would imply the duration as well.
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I was always under the impression that a Ring of Invisibility would grant invisibilty an unlimited number of times per day, each instance lasting a maximum of three minutes, since it's a CL3 item and Invisibility, the spell upon which the Ring is based, lasts one minute per caster level.
This is how it works in Pathfinder.
Which means if you're using a Hat of Disguise during a long dinner party, you're going to be taking a lot of bathroom breaks.
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Ah good, I'm not crazy then.
Well, at least not for that reason ...
I was always under the impression that a Ring of Invisibility would grant invisibilty an unlimited number of times per day, each instance lasting a maximum of three minutes, since it's a CL3 item and Invisibility, the spell upon which the Ring is based, lasts one minute per caster level.This is how it works in Pathfinder.
Which means if you're using a Hat of Disguise during a long dinner party, you're going to be taking a lot of bathroom breaks.
I still haven't seen any proof of this.
I have always run it so that the duration matches the CL in the items description. I see that 3.5 FAQ backs my rulings.
FWIW I assume PF words=3.5 words if they are the same words.
99% of the time this holds up.
The CL of the item is what you use to determine how easy it is to dispel the item so I don't see why it does not count for duration if the item says it works like the spell which also goes by duration.
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Hmm, this raises an interesting question, does the bonus applied by the hat need to be continuous, or do you only need the benefit during the time in which you craft your disguise? When is the Perception difficulty set by the disguise skill check?
Lets look at the relevant rules:
Check: Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others' Perception check results.You get only one Disguise check per use of the skill, even if several people make Perception checks against it. The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can't be sure how good the result is.
An individual makes a Perception check to see through your disguise immediately upon meeting you and again every hour thereafter. If you casually meet a large number of different creatures, each for a short time, check once per day or hour, using an average Perception modifier for the group.Action: Creating a disguise requires 1d3 × 10 minutes of work. Using magic (such as the disguise self spell) reduces this action to the time required to cast the spell or trigger the effect.
DISGUISE SELF
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.
When combined with the Disguise skill, this quite clearly reads that the spell reduces the time to craft a disguise down to one standard action, and provides a +10 untyped bonus on the skill check. You can make as many times as you like during the 10 minute per level duration.
So then, the benefit of this spell is not that it creates a disguise which ends when the spell ends, but rather that you can create as many disguises as you want for the duration of the spell with a +10 bonus to the check. Each disguise you assume lasts until someone succeeds at a perception check to penetrate the disguise because the disguise itself is governed by the skill, not the spell.I realize that this is a significant deviation from how pretty much everyone is using this item/and this spell, but it is the RAW reading of the rule.
As people have pointed out, the duration of the hat is in question.
Considering that a person can just use the command word again as a standard action every 25 minutes, is it really worth it to limit the duration? I suppose at a fancy dinner that could be a problem, but most of the time it is more fun to just ignore such things.
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My point is that for the desired result, the hats duration is irrelevant. You put on the hat, make your disguise check, and once you have the result, thats your disguise. since you only make the check once, and all perception checks are rolled against that same check, you only need the +10 bonus during the instant in which you rolled the die. after that the perception DC is static regardless of the spells duration. There is no need to refresh the spell when it wears off unless they wish to change disguises.
My point is that for the desired result, the hats duration is irrelevant. You put on the hat, make your disguise check, and once you have the result, thats your disguise. since you only make the check once, and all perception checks are rolled against that same check, you only need the +10 bonus during the instant in which you rolled the die. after that the perception DC is static regardless of the spells duration. There is no need to refresh the spell when it wears off unless they wish to change disguises.
Does this preclude the player having the option to take 10 on his Disguise check? I'm thinking not.
Taking 10 means you're working on the Disguise skill yourself. You can't take 10 when all you're doing is activating a magic item.
Why not? You clearly have control over the form you take. How is that any different from having control over the makeup and wigs you decide to wear? I don't see any rule anywhere that would prohibit someone from taking 10 on a Disguise check regardless of whether they are using magic or mundane components.
My point is that for the desired result, the hats duration is irrelevant. You put on the hat, make your disguise check, and once you have the result, thats your disguise. since you only make the check once, and all perception checks are rolled against that same check, you only need the +10 bonus during the instant in which you rolled the die. after that the perception DC is static regardless of the spells duration. There is no need to refresh the spell when it wears off unless they wish to change disguises.
The disguise doesn't exist in perpetuity. It wears off when the magic runs its course.
Whether I'd actually make people make a new check every time the spell is cast to refresh a disguise is another matter. It's possible I'd just handwave it.
I don't know that I'd let someone take 20 on a disguise check. I don't think I'd have a problem letting them take 10, though.
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My point is that for the desired result, the hats duration is irrelevant. You put on the hat, make your disguise check, and once you have the result, thats your disguise. since you only make the check once, and all perception checks are rolled against that same check, you only need the +10 bonus during the instant in which you rolled the die. after that the perception DC is static regardless of the spells duration. There is no need to refresh the spell when it wears off unless they wish to change disguises.The disguise doesn't exist in perpetuity. It wears off when the magic runs its course.
Whether I'd actually make people make a new check every time the spell is cast to refresh a disguise is another matter. It's possible I'd just handwave it.
I disagree with your assessment. According to the Spell as written you for the duration, you have a +10 bonus on any disguise checks you make, during the same duration, you can change disguise an unlimited number of times as a standard action. When the duration expires you can no longer craft disguises with a +10 bonus. Nothing in the spell tells you to remove the bonus from your existing disguise check when the duration expires, its not even implied anywhere in the text. Since the Disguise skill is checked one time when you craft the disguise, you apply a +10 bonus to this check. everything that comes after is governed by the disguise skill which states when and how frequently perception checks are made to penetrate your disguise.
As far as taking 20:
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you roll a d20 enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
Nothing in the spell or skill, or this passage that would justify preventing a player from taking 20 to craft their disguise as long as they have a modicum of privacy.
Re: Taking 20:
The skill check is made in private so you don't know the result. You don't know if you've made a successful attempt at making a convincing disguise. So there's a fair argument to be made for the chance of failure.
As for the disguise itself, you are crafting a magical illusion. It is a glamer effect, not a conjuration effect. You are trying to use the spell to create an actual disguise, as opposed to using an illusion spell to create an illusion that acts as a disguise. If the spell actually created a disguise, what would be the point of allowing a saving throw to disbelief the magic?
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements.
The rules prohibit you from doing what you are trying to do. The effect isn't permanent.
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Just because its unreal doesn't mean its impermanent. To borrow from another thread, what you suggest isn't wrong, in fact its perfectly correct. It also happens that it doesn't resemble the rules in question.
The rules as written for the spell tell us that for ten minutes per level we can make as many disguise checks as we have standard actions, and that the spell even gives us an untyped bonus to those checks. It also tells us the physically interacting with the disguise gives a saving throw to disbelieve it (bypassing the perception requirement of the skill).
The skill tells us that the check is made once upon crafting the disguise.
Nothing tells us anywhere that we can or should retroactively remove that bonus from the already completed check when the spells duration expires. The check is made, it sets the dc for perception, and that dc is a static number.
As for taking 20, there is nothing in the rules (which I copy pasted in their entirety) that has anything to do with chance of failure. Failure is assumed as part of the take 20 action. Only penalties for failure, which if the disguise is crafted privately are nonexistent. There for a character alone in their room can indeed take 20 to craft a disguise, it just takes an exceedingly long time without the spell, and 2 minutes with.
The rules as written for the spell, in addition to the rules as written for glamers, tell us that once the magic spell is gone, the disguise disappears. The disguise is created by magic. Once the magic is gone, so is the spell effect. So no more disguise. RAW = disguise lasts only as long as the spell.
Think I mistyped earlier with regard to the chance of failure. Meant penalty but that doesn't make sense anyway in retrospect. So yeah, you probably can take 20.
As was touched upon (partly by me) in the other thread, where by RAW does it say that losing part of the disguise causes you to need a new disguise check?
It's a silly argument, because obviously RAI you would need a new check and nobody would normally argue that. If you want to focus purely on RAW though, nowhere does it say or even hint that you need a new disguise check if you lose part of the disguise. Even if you make a disguise check without using the spell, there are no rules for the disguise check changing after it has been made, only for someone seeing through it with a perception check. Fall face-first into mud and lose your makeup and wig? Based only on RAW, it doesn't change anything until you actively decide to take the time to make a new disguise.
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As was touched upon (partly by me) in the other thread, where by RAW does it say that losing part of the disguise causes you to need a new disguise check?
It's a silly argument, because obviously RAI you would need a new check and nobody would normally argue that. If you want to focus purely on RAW though, nowhere does it say or even hint that you need a new disguise check if you lose part of the disguise. Even if you make a disguise check without using the spell, there are no rules for the disguise check changing after it has been made, only for someone seeing through it with a perception check. Fall face-first into mud and lose your makeup and wig? Based only on RAW, it doesn't change anything until you actively decide to take the time to make a new disguise.
This is precisely my point!
No where in the spell does it even say that your disguise must be entirely or even partly illusory, it simply provides an untyped bonus to the skill check and allows you to craft the disguise as a standard action bypassing the usual crafting time requirement of the disguise skill.
By RAW I can make a completely mundane disguise, I can do it in one standard action, and I get a bonus on the skill check to do so.
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.
None of this specifies that magic was used to do so, a skilled disguise smith can do all of these things without the spell, what then does the spell do?
If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.
That's it, that's all it does. Nothing more. The crafting time is actually shortened as a function of the skill itself.
The fact that this was CLEARLY NOT THE INTENT is immaterial to the argument.
No where in the spell does it even say that your disguise must be entirely or even partly illusory,
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If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it...
Bolded the section about glamer.
Please tell us if none of the disguise is illusionary, what precisely does the mentioned Will save do?
That portion of the text is talking about using the spell to create the disguise. Since we know by the magic type that the spell can't create materials, it must be creating the glamer is talked about in the very next sentance.
Taken in context, those two lines indicate to me that using the spell to create a disguise means that part of the disguise is a glamer. Might be the hair color, may be something else, but when the spell ends whatever it did to help create the disguise will also end. I don't see a significant difference between that and taking off a wig that was part of the disguise, the original disguise is no longer complete.
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the original disguise is no longer complete.
This is not addressed in the rules anywhere at any time.
Logically you are correct, based on contextual assumptions you make.
Sure the spell says I can use illusions to improve my disguise. it doesn't specify that this is necessary in order to benefit from the +10 bonus, nor does it say that the disguise or the disguise self skill check go away when the duration expires. The skill check by its very nature is made only once. if i have a +10 bonus when the check is rolled, then i have a bonus. I roll my check. that check becomes a Perception DC nothing anywhere says when the spell expires reduce the Perception DC to penetrate the disguise by 10.
That a disguise goes away when the magic that created it is no longer in play should be patently obvious. This is not a situation where "RAW doesn't say, so it technically doesn't apply!" This is a situation where the designers have instructed us to use a bit of common sense. It doesn't say the disguise goes away when the spell ends because it shouldn't have to.
Instantaneous effects and permanent effects specifically tell us when the magical effect sticks around after the magic's duration expires. It stands to reason that the default then (via the exception proving the rule, etc.) is that when the magic's duration expires, the magical effect does along with it.
The RAW dictate that when you magically create a disguise using the spell, the disguise lasts only as long as the magic spell's duration.