Welcome to the game! My group is still really enjoying it. In addition to our weekly sessions and pickup games of pure Torchbearer, I'm about to try the Aliens/Colonial Marines hack that the developers stealth-released.
A bit of advice for veteran gamers taking their first steps into Torchbearer: in most games, the player succeeds when the character succeeds, and fails when the character fails. In Torchbearer, the character can fail, in fact must fail to advance, and the player can still succeed by utilizing the failure correctly.
Once you fit your head around this, a lot of the rules that seem needlessly harsh at first glance actually turn out to be gifts to the player. Some people just never grasp this, and so the game has something of a mean reputation.
Well you've convinced me. I know what I'm reading this afternoon.
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I'm currently planning games for the big convention this Summer and I started thinking about Torchbearer again. How well could it be twisted into something by way of Dungeon Meshi, where making delicious food out of dungeon monsters is a thing? I recall Cooking being a skill but can't remember if it can actually be applied towards making food out of slain monsters.
Regardless, the game has everything else I'm looking for in the sort of game I want to run: an old-school survival vibe with a really brutal and desperate feel.
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Sorry for the double post, but upon reading the book I can see that Torchbearer won't be the right game for a Dungeon Meshi type of game. That's okay though, I can just run the game by my original plan using Strike! (now there's an interesting game: if you want to see a hybrid of 4e style tactical combat with some ideas from Mouse Guard and Torchbearer, check this game out!) but rereading Torchbearer last night has done little to temper my enthusiasm for the game. Along with Fellowship and Strike!, Torchbearer is now on my list of games to run at the big convention.
I had a few questions though: if a monster has a certain Disposition given for a certain type of conflict I never roll for their Disposition, no matter how many creatures there are in the scene, right? This seems to produce some weird things: goblins have a Disposition of 3 in Drive Off conflicts, meaning that in that type of conflict there'll only ever be three goblins ever, right? I can sort of understand it from a narrative point of view (goblins are cowardly and if the adventurers decide to stand their ground or try to drive them off most will just summarily bugger off), but it gets weird when their Disposition for Kill conflicts is given as a 6. Maybe the idea is that if the goblins are pressed against the wall and death is on the line they'll fight to the last, but they'd rather not risk death to begin with?
Secondly, I'm looking for a good adventure that would make a good one-shot in a convention environment. I know there's an adventure in the book but it leaves me a bit cold, and the free adventure available on their website seems solid but I'm unsure as to how representative it is of the game as a whole. If anyone has a good idea of a short old-school dungeon crawl that would adapt easily into Torchbearer (preferably something with standby monsters like goblins and kobolds) that would be much appreciated!
And finally, for the sake of this one-shot, would I be better off just making the players' characters completely or providing them with prefab characters with some choices left for them to make (like the Nature questions). Making the characters completely from scratch is probably not on the menu, because it would simply take too big a slice from the four-hour slot I'm planning.
EDIT: Reading the Dread Crypt of Skogenby, apparently in conflicts where the Disposition of the creatures is set you're supposed to add +1 to disposition for every creature beyond the first. I'm not sure where that's stated in the rules, but I'd completely missed that. So, in a Drive Off conflict against four goblins their Disposition would be, in total, 6 (3 to begin with, +1 for every goblin beyond the first)? That makes a lot more sense to me, although I'll have to read the book again to see if I've got that right.
It handles large groups incredibly well. All the players can remain engaged even when it isn't their turn, because they still need to describe their actions to provide helping dice. I have never run an 8 person party with such ease -- nor with such entertaining results.
Oh, neat. Mouse Guard is pretty much the opposite, so this is news to me. I might have to consider it for our game.
I had a few questions though: if a monster has a certain Disposition given for a certain type of conflict I never roll for their Disposition, no matter how many creatures there are in the scene, right? This seems to produce some weird things: goblins have a Disposition of 3 in Drive Off conflicts, meaning that in that type of conflict there'll only ever be three goblins ever, right? I can sort of understand it from a narrative point of view (goblins are cowardly and if the adventurers decide to stand their ground or try to drive them off most will just summarily bugger off), but it gets weird when their Disposition for Kill conflicts is given as a 6. Maybe the idea is that if the goblins are pressed against the wall and death is on the line they'll fight to the last, but they'd rather not risk death to begin with?
Take this with a big grain of salt, as I know Mouse Guard, not TB, and the systems are clearly very different on this. But my guess is that, if Disposition is remotely like Mouse Guard, Disposition refers less to the number of goblins and more to the abstract "margin of victory". Does the book actually say Disposition = # of monsters?
EDIT: Just saw your edit.
*Shrug*
I'll wait for Evil Abe on this.
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Take this with a big grain of salt, as I know Mouse Guard, not TB, and the systems are clearly very different on this. But my guess is that, if Disposition is remotely like Mouse Guard, Disposition refers less to the number of goblins and more to the abstract "margin of victory". Does the book actually say Disposition = # of monsters?
EDIT: Just saw your edit.
*Shrug*
I'll wait for Evil Abe on this.
Yeah, at least to my understanding it works a bit differently in Torchbearer: by the example conflict in the book, if the creature type doesn't have a disposition set for a specific type of conflict but has an appropriate Nature descriptor then the enemies roll Nature for their disposition, adding successes to their Nature to calculate their disposition for that conflict, and any enemies beyond the first one can help as normal. So, assuming three creatures with Nature 3 and the "Swarming" descriptor they'd roll 5 dice (3 for Nature, +2D for the two beyond the first helping), adding any successes to their Nature to get their final disposition.
Because this much is clear from the rules I found it odd at first that the number of enemies wouldn't affect creatures with set dispositions for certain conflicts, because it would have the odd effect of making those creatures better at conflicts where they didn't have a set disposition provided they could roll their Nature and get helping dice for the roll, but if The Dread Crypt of Skogenby has the right rules then it all makes sense. Still need to check my book once I get home or wait for Evil Abe to help me. :)
Oh, hey! Sorry for the delayed response, I've been off the forums for a spell.
Iif a monster has a certain Disposition given for a certain type of conflict I never roll for their Disposition, no matter how many creatures there are in the scene, right?
You add one to the monster team's disposition for each monster past the first.
If you happen to have more monsters than points (only common with weaker horde monsters like goblins and kobolds) then you come up with a reason why the remainders are quickly knocked out of the fight. This rule ("Too Many Kobolds") only tends to come up with fairly muppetty monsters, so I've never had trouble with it.
Secondly, I'm looking for a good adventure that would make a good one-shot in a convention environment. I know there's an adventure in the book but it leaves me a bit cold, and the free adventure available on their website seems solid but I'm unsure as to how representative it is of the game as a whole. If anyone has a good idea of a short old-school dungeon crawl that would adapt easily into Torchbearer (preferably something with standby monsters like goblins and kobolds) that would be much appreciated!
You know, I'm not a huge fan of the book adventure myself, although returning to it with more experience I think it would run much more smoothly. The intro adventure on the site "The Dread Crypt of Skogenby" is pretty good, albeit small. The end boss of that dungeon is likely to cause a lot of problems for groups that are too hasty to use violence as a solution.
I'm actually working on a whole series of adventures to publish under the commercial license, which is exciting! But until then, I recommend you grab any small-ish adventure site from a module or AP that has a lot of low-level logistical stuff in it: climb DCs, secret doors, and the like.
The secret about Torchbearer is that you just need a really good map and a very clear sense of the environment. Setting obstacles (DCs) and statting out monsters isn't nearly as crucial as it is in Pathfinder. In some ways, planning out rolls ahead of time is actually a bad move. I'll do it for only the most obvious things.
Because remember: if the players can talk through a situation in sufficient detail, there's no roll. No roll means no time wasted.
And finally, for the sake of this one-shot, would I be better off just making the players' characters completely or providing them with prefab characters with some choices left for them to make (like the Nature questions). Making the characters completely from scratch is probably not on the menu, because it would simply take too big a slice from the four-hour slot I'm planning.
I'd recommend using the characters provided in the book, but let them modify any specific details they wish. If you have time, make characters as a group, but the pre-gens have some interesting synergy built in. Skill synergy between characters is absolutely critical in this game.
EDIT: Reading the Dread Crypt of Skogenby, apparently in conflicts where the Disposition of the creatures is set you're supposed to add +1 to disposition for every creature beyond the first. I'm not sure where that's stated in the rules, but I'd completely missed that. So, in a Drive Off conflict against four goblins their Disposition would be, in total, 6 (3 to begin with, +1 for every goblin beyond the first)? That makes a lot more sense to me, although I'll have to read the book again to see if I've got that right.
That is correct, as I mentioned above.
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Yeah, I eventually found the passage in question in the rulebook and it all makes sense now.
On another note, I'm probably not going to run Torchbearer at the convention: subjecting a group of people who have probably not played it ever to the game with me having no experience of it yet either in a convention environment doesn't sound like a recipe for success. For this convention I'll stick to what I know and look at subjecting my friends to this game at some point. :)
I've had the game for more than a year now and I'm still pretty interested in playing it, though I haven't had a chance to try it IRL. Would anyone be interested in running or playing in a game on the boards? I've never used the rules in action but I could try running it if no one else wants to.