Gauntlets with Training Echantment


Rules Questions


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A character can wear two gauntlets. I am fairly sure that I can enchant my gauntlets with the training enchantment from Inner Sea Intrigue. And to have each gauntlet enchanted differently. Also, since multiple bane enchantment can be placed on a single weapon, logically I could have multiple different training enchantments on a single gauntlet.

Did I miss something? Does this mean I could use up to 18 Combat Feats while wearing my gauntlets? As long as I have all prerequisites for those feats and don't use the training enchantment as prerequisites itself.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

No. See this thread. Gauntlets are not "in-hand" when worn.


Interesting view point. Donned vs Drawn. Haven't considered it.
But I could argue with this thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2szoa?can-you-quickdraw-a-gauntlet.
If I can quick draw a Gauntlet as RAW, how is it not drawn? Sounds like silly hair spitting to me. I need more hard facts.


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A good rule of thumb is that if something feels exploitative (I'm going to get extra feats from my gauntlets, boot blades, boulder helmet, tail spikes, and armor spikes!) it's probably not what was intended by the author of the feat or ability in question.

A generous GM would probably let someone like a Shielded Gauntlet Style user (the style already doesn't really work by RAW so requires GM intervention) enchant their gauntlet with training, since that person will be intending to attack regularly with that gauntlet once they get the second feat in the chain.

If you want to abuse the training feature, the way to do it is that it allows legacy weapon, warrior spirit, and any other "enhance your weapon temporarily" ability that doesn't require picking from a list act as a replacement for Martial Versatility, which is great.

But in practice, this is probably for a GM who wants to put a neat exotic weapon in a lootpile, a +1 Training Fauchard with EWP(Fauchard) is something a melee oriented cleric or oracle would love to find.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
But in practice, this is probably for a GM who wants to put a neat exotic weapon in a lootpile, a +1 Training Fauchard with EWP(Fauchard) is something a melee oriented cleric or oracle would love to find.

Ooohhh, I know what's next on my oracle's wishlist.


Shield Gauntlet style is one of the feat chains I'll be using heavily in my build. Is there any other suggestion? Please stick with paizo material.

If I wanted to be exploitative, I would just hold a double weapon in my off-hand and that'll never use to gain the same effect. Just trying to find an appropriate limit for the gauntlets. The my idea is something like this.

Gauntlet 1: +5 weapon enchantment bonus, 1 to 5 training enchantment.
Gauntlet 2: +1 weapon enchantment bonus, dueling enchantment(+5), 1 to 4 training enchantment.
Each Gauntlet will coast over 200,000gp. So I doubt I'll ever see them maxed out in terms training enchantments. The feats I would like to use would be Improve Initiative and Shield Gauntlet style master.

Thoughts?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Vince Frost wrote:
If I wanted to be exploitative, I would just hold a double weapon in my off-hand and that'll never use to gain the same effect.

If this becomes common, I expect a ruling like the one made for the Defending property to come down the pike. That is, it may be that Training is or will be errata'd to be 'Use Activated', requiring that the weapon actually be used. I don't think this is currently the case, however.

Vince Frost wrote:
Just trying to find an appropriate limit for the gauntlets.

Always err on the conservative side, but even then, checking with your GM is the best bet. Personally, since gautlets are not in-hand when worn, I don't think it works.


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'Use Activated' would rule out a big chunk of the combat feats, and cause a big headache in general.


"Always err on the conservative side" I like that, avoid the bane stacking ruling and just stick to one training enchantment per item. That would work fine for me.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Weapon Special Abilities Rules wrote:
Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

From This page


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Except we know that you can put more than one bane enchantment on a weapon. So, the question is, is Training (combat expertise) the same enchantment as Training (combat reflexes)?

Since they do different things, it seems like they would not be the same special ability.

Also, what's the big deal? Each training enchantment you put on will be just that much more expensive.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I found that reference.
FAQ

Technically, it only addresses Bane.


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SlimGauge wrote:

I found that reference.

FAQ

Technically, it only addresses Bane.

Well, of course. The question is, is Training like all of the other weapon enchantments that do exactly the same thing, or is Training like Bane?

That is, is Bane an 'exception' to that rule, or is the fact that different Bane enchantments do different things mean that it still follows the rules?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Vince Frost wrote:
I would just hold a double weapon in my off-hand and that'll never use to gain the same effect.

If you don't use it you don't get its benefits- look at defending property FAQ for an example of the concept.


James Risner wrote:
Vince Frost wrote:
I would just hold a double weapon in my off-hand and that'll never use to gain the same effect.
If you don't use it you don't get its benefits- look at defending property FAQ for an example of the concept.

There are enchantments that grant bonuses for actions other than attacking in combat. So clearly 'using the weapon' is not necessary for every enchantment.

From the defending FAQ:

Quote:
Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed (use a weapon to make attacks, wear a shield on your arm so you can defend with it, and so on) to gain its benefits.

Now the training enchantment:

Quote:

TRAINING

PRICE +1 bonus CL 3rd
AURA faint transmutation
Popular among those who seek to impersonate skilled warriors, a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. The feat is chosen when this special ability is placed on the weapon. That feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for any other feats and functions for the wielder only if she meets its prerequisites. Once chosen, the feat stored in the weapon cannot be changed.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST +1 bonus
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic weapon, creator must have the chosen combat feat and its prerequisites

I would say that is 'otherwise specified', wouldn't you?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

_Ozy_ wrote:
I would say that is 'otherwise specified', wouldn't you?

I would say yes it's designed such that holding it because you intend on using it as a weapon.

If you hold it and cast spells, use a different weapon to attack, just make movement, or otherwise treat it like an ioun stone granting a feat then it is not being used as designed.


I'm not really sure what the goal is. There are probably not THAT many combat feats that you qualify for and want to gain simultaneously anyways.

Quick Draw and a bag of +1 Training Dan Bongs (Or other weightless weapons) seems much more affordable and practical.


I could qualify for a lot of feats. Just taking Point Blank Shot and precise shot would let me take Cluster shot, Bulleyes shot, Focus shot, Disrupting shot, Farshot and Impact Critical shot as training Enchantments. That's at least 6 feats I could place on a bow.
It is written in inner sea Intrigue training enchantment,
"Popular among those who seek to impersonate skilled warriors".
It seems this enchantment dose that in spades.

This is why I am trying to find a limit. The Bane stacking ruling sets a precedent that multiple enchantments can be placed on the same weapon.

"Always err on the conservative side" is good advise from SlimGauge. I should stick with just one training enchantment per weapon. He and I disagree on "Donned vs Drawn" of Gauntlets. I think it's okay to have +1 training gauntlets.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Vince Frost wrote:
The Bane stacking ruling sets a precedent that multiple enchantments can be placed on the same weapon.

I don't believe this is true. That FAQ is not written in a general sense, it is written such that ONLY Bane can do that. BANE is a specific instance that overrules the Weapon Special Abilities rule for that case only.

If you believe otherwise, ask for a FAQ. I'd click that. In fact, I might even write that.


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SlimGauge wrote:
Vince Frost wrote:
The Bane stacking ruling sets a precedent that multiple enchantments can be placed on the same weapon.

I don't believe this is true. That FAQ is not written in a general sense, it is written such that ONLY Bane can do that. BANE is a specific instance that overrules the Weapon Special Abilities rule for that case only.

If you believe otherwise, ask for a FAQ. I'd click that. In fact, I might even write that.

You quoted the general rule already:

Quote:
Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

The Bane FAQ doesn't 'change' this rule, it identifies each specific bane as a 'different' special ability. You still can't put the same 'bane' more than once on a weapon.

So, given that's how special abilities are categorized with regard to weapon enchantments, is the training enchantment like 'bane', such that different training choices count as different special abilities, or is the training enchantment like 'flaming', where each one does exactly the same thing?

Bane doesn't 'overrule' the special ability case, it explains how each bane is not the same special ability.


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James Risner wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
I would say that is 'otherwise specified', wouldn't you?

I would say yes it's designed such that holding it because you intend on using it as a weapon.

If you hold it and cast spells, use a different weapon to attack, just make movement, or otherwise treat it like an ioun stone granting a feat then it is not being used as designed.

That's absolutely not what the rules say. It's not being 'treated' as an ioun stone, because it has different and quite specific rules for activation. The weapon must be 'drawn and in hand'.

That means that feats like 'improved initiative' would work, even before you had a chance to attack with the weapon. Improved Bull Rush would work even though you're not attacking with your weapon.

Again, 'drawn and in hand' is otherwise specified, which renders null the rule that says the item is de facto 'use activated'.


Use a cestus. At any rate, spending all that money to get a combat feat that can't build up to the other feats in its chain is a little on the balanced side to me.

I suppose the question would be "If a player asked for a slotted magic item that granted them a combat feat (that they have to meet the prerequisites for and can't be used to fulfill other prerequisites), would 6,000 be the price you'd arrive at?"

As is the cheapest way to cheese Training is with an Amulet of Mighty Fists, though only for one feat. If you try to cheese it too much it doesn't work, as most of the cheesy shenanigans can be replicated with other items at similar cost.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

_Ozy_ wrote:
That's absolutely not what the rules say.

As is always the case when we get FAQ.

Two sides always are absolutely sure the rules don't say what the other side thinks it absolutely says.

In this case in my view the rules say you get the feat as long as you are not holding a weapon solely for the purpose of getting the feat by holding it.

More simply put:
If you put training on a weapon you use in combat, it works.
If you put it on armor spikes you never use, it doesn't work.


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James Risner wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
That's absolutely not what the rules say.

As is always the case when we get FAQ.

Two sides always are absolutely sure the rules don't say what the other side thinks it absolutely says.

In this case in my view the rules say you get the feat as long as you are not holding a weapon solely for the purpose of getting the feat by holding it.

More simply put:
If you put training on a weapon you use in combat, it works.
If you put it on armor spikes you never use, it doesn't work.

Er, that's not 'more simply put' at all, in fact that has nothing to do with the 'using it' part, and everything to do with the 'in hand' part.

Armor spikes are not held in hand, so a training enchantment doesn't work even if you use the armor spikes.

You may think that the intention is to allow training only if the weapon is being used, but this invalidates entire swaths of feats, such as Improved Initiative, and many combat maneuver feats.

But again, I'll lay it out specifically. The Defending FAQ says 'Unless otherwise specified...' and the Training enchantment specifies otherwise. Therefore that part of the Defending FAQ is invalidated by its own wording, so we look to just what the Training Enchantment says:

Quote:
a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand

So, if you have your weapon drawn and in-hand, you get to use the Improved Initiative feat (for example), even if you haven't used your weapon, and even if your first action during combat is to do something other than attacking with the weapon.

There are no rules, anywhere, that apply the 'must attack with the weapon' to the training enchantment as the Defending FAQ is invalidated by its own RAW.


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James Risner wrote:

More simply put:

If you put training on a weapon you use in combat, it works.
If you put it on armor spikes you never use, it doesn't work.

What about someone with two weapons who is making attacks with one weapon, who plans to make AoOs with a different weapon? When does training "turn on" then?


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And what if that feat is 'Disruptive'? ;)


Wow... Just wow. I am sorry for bring up the Bane FAQ. I will be sticking with just one training enchantment per useful hand held item. Stacking the training enchantment is a bit much after all.
All I really wanted to know if I can put training enchantment on my Gauntlets. Gauntlets will be a part of my Character's core. I will be investing a least the following 3 feats:
Weapon Focus (Gauntlet), Shield Gauntlet Style and Shield Gauntlet Attack.
The possible feats I would use with training enchantment would be:
Quick Draw, Shield Gauntlet Master and Improved Initiative.
I don't think this will break the game or an unreasonable idea. This is not meant to cheese or exploit the Training Enchantment.

So I repeat, I can put training enchantment on my Gauntlets? Why or why not? Because it is "worn"? That means no Brass knuckles, Cestus, Spiked gauntlet, gauntlet, etc. can't be the target of the Training Enchantment. That ruling would be a little off to me. This feels like a bias against weapons that can't be disarmed.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

PossibleCabbage wrote:
James Risner wrote:

More simply put:

If you put training on a weapon you use in combat, it works.
If you put it on armor spikes you never use, it doesn't work.
What about someone with two weapons who is making attacks with one weapon, who plans to make AoOs with a different weapon? When does training "turn on" then?

If that's your intent and when you make AoO you use that weapon, then as a GM I'd be fine with training for Improved Initiative and get the +4.

I think this WSA is designed to work that way.

I don't think it's designed for "I'm never going to us it as anything except a weapon slotted 8,000 gp Combat Feat". In those cases I'd say no you don't get your Improved Initiative.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

@Vince Frost, ask your GM. There is no FAQ and there is significant difference of opinion on what/how/why this works. So there is no official answer, click FAQ on the consolidated training thread. Until we get a FAQ you will not get a consensus.


If the "secret Herolab FAQ" is correct, then gauntlets can't be enchanted at all, but could benefit from an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Training special ability. We've been waiting since last June for clarification on this issue so I have no idea when we will know. You might want to go with Spiked Gauntlets instead.


James Risner wrote:

If that's your intent and when you make AoO you use that weapon, then as a GM I'd be fine with training for Improved Initiative and get the +4.

I think this WSA is designed to work that way.

You realize that sort of subjective determination of 'usage' can't possibly be a rule.

How many fights would he have to go without either getting an opportunity to take an AoO, or actually choosing not to make an AoO before he no longer gets the Improved Initiative feat for the next combat?

10 fights, no opportunity for AoO, no problem, still active...

1 fight, choose not to take an AoO for <reasons>, whoops, training no longer works...

You can't possibly mean it when you say you think WSA are designed to work that way.


Gisher wrote:
If the "secret Herolab FAQ" is correct, then gauntlets can't be enchanted at all, but could benefit from an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Training special ability. We've been waiting since last June for clarification on this issue so I have no idea when we will know. You might want to go with Spiked Gauntlets instead.

<sigh> I'm still waiting for that FAQ.


Me too. :(


Vince Frost wrote:
I could qualify for a lot of feats. Just taking Point Blank Shot and precise shot would let me take Cluster shot, Bulleyes shot, Focus shot, Disrupting shot, Farshot and Impact Critical shot as training Enchantments. That's at least 6 feats I could place on a bow.

Yeah, and most of those are kind of a waste of money. And only help when your using that bow. And that's only 6. And most of them Cannot be used together.

It is not a matter of "qualifying" it is a matter of "worth the cost and effort for this character to try and get them all at the same time"
A +1 Distance Cluster Shot bow, +1 Distracting Focus Shot bow cost way less than a +1 [Training x6] bow, and are more effective.
Even if you CAN get 10 feats from your gauntlets, It Is Probably Not Worth It.

Quote:
This is why I am trying to find a limit. The Bane stacking ruling sets a precedent that multiple enchantments can be placed on the same weapon.

Go with good sense. The price of more than one instance of training on any given item is probably money you could have spent on a slotless item with a similar bonus.


Vince Frost wrote:


The possible feats I would use with training enchantment would be:
Quick Draw, Shield Gauntlet Master and Improved Initiative.
I don't think this will break the game or an unreasonable idea. This is not meant to cheese or exploit the Training Enchantment.

It's not really an issue either way. If they rule that it only works on weapons your "attacking with or planning to attack with" your fine. If they say "held weapon only" then hold some training sticks, and punch people anyways. As far as I know, there are no rules that prevent you from making a gauntlet attack while holding an item.

I would recommend the Dan Bong. Costs 1 silver piece, weighs nothing, gives +2 on grapple checks, has the blocking property, and can be thrown in a pinch. It is exotic, but who cares, your not planing on attacking with it anyways.

Honestly, that's probably the better way to go, if allowed. Save your gauntlets for enchantments that will actually help you attack and damage.


This might be honestly a thing that Paizo refuses to come down on, just leaving individual GMs to check abuses and decide how this works on their own table (I suspect this is what happened to Shielded Gauntlet Style).

Personally I might run it as: You can only benefit from the training enchantment on two weapons at a time, which have to be in a position where you could use them on your turn if you wanted (and weren't somehow prevented from acting), and you're going to have to explain to me how exactly the weapon in question helps you do the thing the feat lets you do (your boot blade gives you rapid reload? I'd like to know how that works.)


Why would you allow a boot blade if it's not 'held in hand'? That seems the easiest way to cut down on the majority of the abuse (so no boot blades, gauntlets, boulder helmet, armor spikes, etc...), and now you're just left with things like people trying to cheese two double weapons or something.


When you get into the realm of "It's very unclear how this works, let's house rule it" I feel like you ought to make the ability work the way it makes sense and seems fair to you.

Personally, I'm fine with the idea of armor spikes that grant, say, elephant stomp, spiked destroyer, or bullette rampage. So I'd probably okay that. It makes more sense to me than "enchanting the end of a double weapon you don't plan on using" at least.

All the abuses I'd be concerned about are checked by the "only two anywhere on your person" and "it has to make sense."


I would be a little leery on the 'it has to make sense' portion. You are being magically imbued with the capability to use a feat, not 'using' a weapon to execute that feat.

Would make it a limit of 2 feats per person, or 2 weapons that grant feats per person, i.e. each weapon could have multiple training enchantments? Or are you also saying limit it to 1 training enchantment per weapon?

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