Costing the Mithral Full Plate of Phoenix Speed, and general costing armour question.

[toxicpie]

So the Phoenix Armour:

Aura moderate evocation and transmutation; Slot armor; CL 9th; Weight 50 lbs.; Price 36,130 gp

DESCRIPTION

This brilliant golden full plate is decorated with an ornate feather motif curling across its surface and seems to radiate warmth.

Once per day, the wearer of this +2 fire resistant full plate can invoke the name of the phoenix that blessed the armor and bring the might of that phoenix against the wearer's foe. Activating the armor causes it to ignite, wreathing the wearer in red-gold flames as if under the effects of fire shield. In addition, great golden wings unfold out of the back of the armor, allowing the wearer to fly as per the spell. Both of these effects last for 9 rounds.

And the Mithral Full Plate of Speed:

Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th; Weight 25 lbs.; Price 26,500 gp

DESCRIPTION

As a free action, the wearer of this fine set of +1 mithral full plate can activate it, enabling him to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of –3. It is considered medium armor, except that you must be proficient in heavy armor to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties.

What I'd like to know, is first of all why each of these cost what they do, i.e how the cost of each component adds up to the total armour cost. I know it has something to do with spells but when I tried to work it out myself using (spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp) I came up with a wildly large idea.

Secondly, what would the cost of a combination of these two armours be? A +2 mithral full plate which has the powers, as written, of both.

Thank you for any info that will improve my understanding of these armour rules! :)

[Bob Bob Bob]

Alright, so step one is to find out the cost of all the known variables. The known variables should be easy. Full plate is 1,500, masterwork should be 150, and mithral heavy armor is 9,000 (and automatically masterwork).

So now we look at the base item and try to clear out flat costs. So far the Phoenix armor is 33,480 and the Mithral Speed is 16,000 and the Phoenix armor has Fire Resist (+18,000) so we subtract that and now our totals are Phoenix 15,480 and Speed 16,000.

Now we get to the delicate art of removing things from our hind end. This means figuring out what is part of the + equivalent and what's flat cost.
In this case, Speed is an exact match for a +4 armor, so it's most likely that the special benefit of the Speed armor is meant to be a +3 equivalent (the armor is already +1). The other alternative is that it costs 15,000 for speed (16,000 - 1,000 for a +1 armor) but you hit that exact limit so little it probably is a +3 equivalent.
Phoenix armor is, on the other hand, definitely not on the table, and the powers are clearly spell-likes. So first we subtract the +2 part (4,000) and end up at 11,480 for 1/day fly and fire shield. From here we can combine the armors, but just for kicks I'll derive the numbers. 1/day fly at CL 5 (it gives you 9 rounds, but fly is min/level) would be (command word) (1800x3x5)/(5/1) for 5,400. 1/day fire shield at CL 9 would be (1800x4x9)/(5/1) for 12,960. So... you're getting a discount, I guess. Or the writer miscalculated. Activating together might also cost more or less depending on whether it's useful or a hindrance. There might also be some reductions or increases based on restrictions or cramming a bunch of items on the same slot. It's a giant headache, so we'll ignore it and use 11,480.

Anyway, as for combining them you have +2 (+2) Fire Resist (18,000) Phoenix power (11,480) Mithral (9,000) Full Plate (1,500) of Speed (+3) for a +5 equivalent armor so you get 64,980. But don't take my word on the math.

[Cevah]

toxicpie wrote:

So the Phoenix Armour:

<snip>
And the Mithral Full Plate of Speed:
<snip>
What I'd like to know, is first of all why each of these cost what they do, i.e how the cost of each component adds up to the total armour cost. I know it has something to do with spells but when I tried to work it out myself using (spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp) I came up with a wildly large idea.

Secondly, what would the cost of a combination of these two armours be? A +2 mithral full plate which has the powers, as written, of both.

Thank you for any info that will improve my understanding of these armour rules! :)

Phoenix Armor:

Price 36,130 gp
Cost 18,890 gp
Magic = 2 * (36,130 - 18,890) = 34,480
Mundane = 36,130 - 34,480 = 1,650 gp
Full Plate = 1,500
Masterwork = 150
Effects:
+2 AC = 4,000 gp
Fire Resist = 18,000 gp
1/day fire shield: 3th @ 9th = 2,000 * 3 * 9 / 5 = 10,800 gp
1/day fly: 3rd @ 9th & 1/10 time = 10,800 gp
[Summoner gets both at 3rd]
Total = 1,650 + 4,000 + 18,000 + 10,800 + 10,800 = 45,250 gp

Changing the fly to 1/10 price gives:
Total = 1,650 + 4,000 + 18,000 + 10,800 + 1,080 = 35,530 gp

Difference is 36,130 - 35,530 = 600

Mithral Full Plate of Speed
Price 26,500 gp
Cost 18,500 gp
Magic = 2 * (26,500 - 18,500) = 16,000 gp
Mundane = 26,500 - 16,000 = 10,500 gp
Full Plate = 1,500
Mithral = +9,000
AC +1 = 1,000
Speed = 16,000 [4*4*1,000] - 1,000 [1*1*1,000] = +3 equivalent

Both:
Swap Mithral for Mastework = +9,000 - 150 = 8,850 gp
Add +3 bonus for speed = 25,000 - 4,000 = 21,000 gp
Total: 36,130 + 8,850 + 21,000 = 65,980 gp

/cevah

[Bob Bob Bob]

Welcome to the wonderful world of wild guessing meet hard numbers!

Cevah wrote:

1/day fire shield: 3th @ 9th = 2,000 * 3 * 9 / 5 = 10,800 gp
1/day fly: 3rd @ 9th & 1/10 time = 10,800 gp
[Summoner gets both at 3rd]

I had forgotten about this, and while I think the summoner list needs to be banished forever and certainly never used for items you're absolutely right on the level. That being said, it's not continuous, it's a 1/day effect with a duration so it has to be command word. It can't be a use-activated or it goes off when you put it on.

Cevah wrote:

Changing the fly to 1/10 price gives:
Total = 1,650 + 4,000 + 18,000 + 10,800 + 1,080 = 35,530 gp

This one I partially agree and partially disagree. 1/10th the duration for 1/10th the cost does make sense for something where only the duration is affected by caster level. That being said, 9 rounds of flight is probably the same as 9 minutes of flight, especially if you only get it once a day. And that's not including any modifiers for simultaneous activation, which could be good (twice the spells) or bad (I only needed to fly).

I'm not trying to pick on his version (and his version is as good as mine), just pointing out that pricing out individual abilities (rather than pricing out the whole package) tends to be a very delicate game of "does this make sense?" which you're going to have to run by a DM at some point regardless. If you're the DM, then you're doing the same thing your DM would be doing, eyeballing it and making a gut call.

[Cevah]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Welcome to the wonderful world of wild guessing meet hard numbers!

Cevah wrote:

1/day fire shield: 3th @ 9th = 2,000 * 3 * 9 / 5 = 10,800 gp

1/day fly: 3rd @ 9th & 1/10 time = 10,800 gp
[Summoner gets both at 3rd]

I had forgotten about this, and while I think the summoner list needs to be banished forever and certainly never used for items you're absolutely right on the level. That being said, it's not continuous, it's a 1/day effect with a duration so it has to be command word. It can't be a use-activated or it goes off when you put it on.

"...can invoke the name...". Yep. Command word.

The summoner is just the latest.
Paladin is my go-to list for cheap, followed by Ranger, then Druid. Not sure where Magus fits in. Witch, Oracle, Cleric, and Wizard are all about the same, with some nice things on rare occasion.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Cevah wrote:

Changing the fly to 1/10 price gives:

Total = 1,650 + 4,000 + 18,000 + 10,800 + 1,080 = 35,530 gp

This one I partially agree and partially disagree. 1/10th the duration for 1/10th the cost does make sense for something where only the duration is affected by caster level. That being said, 9 rounds of flight is probably the same as 9 minutes of flight, especially if you only get it once a day. And that's not including any modifiers for simultaneous activation, which could be good (twice the spells) or bad (I only needed to fly).

I'm not trying to pick on his version (and his version is as good as mine), just pointing out that pricing out individual abilities (rather than pricing out the whole package) tends to be a very delicate game of "does this make sense?" which you're going to have to run by a DM at some point regardless. If you're the DM, then you're doing the same thing your DM would be doing, eyeballing it and making a gut call.

Command Word rather than Continuous is 10% off.

Save 1,080 + 1,080 = 2,160 from the Phoenix Armor.
Now the difference is 2,760.

Either way, the difference can be the cost of the action economy of both at once.

/cevah

[toxicpie]

Brilliant, thank you for all the detail! My paladin's about to become a very happy guy. ;D