I'm working on a class where a character can integrate weapons into their body. However, I'm torn whether to have the weapons work like natural attacks or have them work like normal weapons that simply cannot be disarmed. I see pros and cons of making them natural attacks:
ADVANTAGES
1) I haven't seen any class do something like this. This would make for a rather unique and interesting class feature.
2) The class can attack with all of their integrated weapons without having to resort to the TWF line.
3) I could have gaining new integrated weapons a major aspect of the class where the PC becomes a walking arsenal that unleashes all of it during a full attack.
4) I could invent new and interesting weapon possibilities and balance it by having them be secondary attacks.
DISADVANTAGES
1) Natural attack rules are rather clumsy and unintuitive. Involving them opens a whole can of worms that may cause confusion in players. If I poorly word my features, it could lead to some game breaking issues.
2) I'd need to gate how many attacks the class can make with integrated weapons and likely make it impossible to use other types of natural attacks.
3) It would be extremely difficult for a PC to enchant so many integrated weapons. They do get a class feature that lets them transfer enchantments, but a WBL issue still exists.
4) Attacking with both the integrated weapons and a normal weapon would incur penalties and would require some rule clarification to what happens when you combine them.
5) I'd need to distinguish primary and secondary attacks, which makes the ability all the more messy.
What's your opinion on this?
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If it is a manufactured weapon, keep them acting as manufactured weapon/unarmed strikes.
Is the class "natural", or maybe more of the "freak surgery" kind?
My intuition is towards the non-natural weapons approach. There are actually many ways to get natural weapons. This would be more special.
More like the freak surgery type. The class literally grafts a sword or a hand crossbow to their arm and rigs them to be retractable when not in use.
Where does a crossbow retract to?
Where does a crossbow retract to?
It folds up into their forearm.
I agree that they should remain manufactured weapons. It makes the class more unique and it allows them to graft enchanted weapons. As for the multiple attacks aspect, have you considered something similar to the flurry of blows class feature? Flurry of blows but only w/weapons integrated into their person.
Would making them simply manufactured weapons that can't be disarmed be unique? I was concerned that would be rather bland, which is why I considered making them natural attacks or like the "integrated weaponry" trait from robots where they're manufactured weapons wielded like natural attacks. If the class feature sounds unique and interesting enough without making them natural attacks, then that's good!
A flurry attack sounds like an interesting idea. Each time the class gets another integrated weapon, they get a bonus attack made with that weapon when full attacking?
I want some opinions on something. Which of the following ideas appeal to you and sound interesting/unique?
1) When the class makes a full attack with only his integrated weapons, he is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. At 6th level and 11th level, he is treated as having Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting respectively.
2) As #1, but the class does not gain Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Instead, the class may gain "secondary integrated weapons" that can add extra attacks if the class spends a resource.
3) As a full attack action, the class may make a single attack with each of his integrated weapons up to a maximum amount of attacks, which increases with level.
4) As #3, but the class receives a -2 penalty on these attacks.
To be honest, there are several subjects on this sort of thing and they have been discussed in length. (Though probably not on these boards, however.) There are a few problems that reduce this subject's importance to a class.
1. The concept screams of prosthetics, which implies it is at best an Alchemist/Cleric thing (probably of an evil alignment if trying to use actual body parts for substitutions). Having been explained the concept of prosthetics, the power behind a prosthetic limb is significantly inferior to that of an actual limb, since it's basically just a tube-like object with an attachment section to apply to the limb. The best concept would be Peg-Legged Pirates, and quite frankly their ability to walk/run, or even use their feet as a weapon, are significantly diminished, if not completely out of the question. In other words, you won't be getting Strength to attack and damage rolls with said prosthetic, and it could very well even be disarmable!
2. The commonplace of missing limbs (and trying to cover them up) are pretty high. Being able to properly adjust to missing a limb or using a prosthetic is something that every human being can adapt and adhere to (even if it is very unconvenient). Restricting the ability to make it viable by class instead of by person reduces not only the credibility of the subject matter, but also shoehorns people into having to take levels into a class because of a disability or battle wound, that they would otherwise be cheesed out of in maximum benefit due to the game's current mechanics for leveling.
3. This can get extremely expensive, given that good humanoid prosthetic limbs are valued at about $90,000 for an average-crafted limb. When currency is gold, it does drop down significantly, though it's still well in the 10,000's range just to own one. What if you want it of special material? What about enhancing it to form as a weapon of its own right? Several other questions really beckon whether it's worth it to spend for the limb and keep on adventuring, or to simply keep your skin, retire early, and live what life you have left as some regular jerkoff. Most adventurers would tell you no way in hell, but I suppose if some are driven enough by greed or their deity, they'll do it. Though they won't be making much cash, given their cost.
Also check out the Golemoid Base class in the Thunderscape Campaign setting...
I already checked out the Golemoid. I wasn't that big of a fan of it. The closest class feature to this only gives you the option to have a gun attached to your body or improved unarmed strikes.
@darksol
I'm rather confused what your point is. The entire theme behind the class is artificially augmenting yourself into a superhuman being. You're forging yourself into the perfect warrior. With that in mind:
1) The class has far more advanced prothestics than real world mundane ones.
2) I don't see how making such a class "shoehorns" people into taking levels in that class, especially when the game and 3pp have prosthetics available. Actually, wouldn't it be cool to have a character who lost their arm so they used their engineering prowess to replace it and become a self-constructed warrior?
3) Clockwork prosthetics are about 6000 gp. The class doesn't have to pay for them just as the wizard doesn't pay for his arcane bond, the gunslinger his battered gun, and the alchemist his bombs and extracts. Also, in real life, a lot of people do keep doing dangerous activities even after sustaining crippling injury.
Again, I'm all for discussion, but I'm baffled what your point is.
It sounds like you want to play a character like this.
The point of having natural limbs over prosthetics is because you can train those limbs to be stronger and stronger, and having a nervous system for that limb is what gives us the ability to react and apply the right amount of force (or none at all). It has consequences for losing them, and trying to replace them with prosthetics won't have the same feel, if at all, and that should have a mechanical sense. For example, if I had players with prosthetic limbs, I would not allow Strength bonuses for activities involving that limb (or half Strength Bonus if other limbs are involved) because the artificial tendons aren't in direct control by the body's nervous system to determine how much force should be applied. Even with experience, prosthetics aren't hardly an actual replacement.
Now, there are some forms of fantasy where prosthetics are actually a boon instead of a curse. Guts from Berserk and Edward from Full Metal Alchemist are prime examples. When Guts obtains the Dragonslayer, the magnet in his prosthetic hand is what makes him able to wield it properly and have him never lose grip in a fight. Without it, he wouldn't be able to use it at all, and he also wouldn't be able to mount a Repeating Crossbow onto his hand to fire repeatedly at swarms of mooks.
Edward from Full Metal Alchemist is a separate case, since the prosthetics he's given actually alter his nervous system to affect those prosthetics (though they don't involve a pain sensor as far as I know). They also serve as components to amplify (or even become directly involved with) his transmutations, making him a much more competent alchemist than before he lost his limbs.
My other argument stems from characters mid-gameplay losing limbs. Say we have Joe the Fighter who's 5th level and uses a Greatsword. He gets critted by a giant ogre (and the group of players run Crit Cards), and the critical effect says he loses an arm (for the record, that is one of the cards). Upon losing that arm, he can no longer use a Greatsword where he invested all his feats, and even if he wanted to try and go to a one-handed weapon, not having a Shield really hurts his ability to do anything without the potential of losing other limbs.
So now, Joe can't really continue his career unless he gets a Regeneration spell cast on him, or he acquires prosthetics. Since he's too low level and too poor to afford a Regeneration spell or prosthetics, he'll have to take levels in a class which, as you say, won't cost him anything to acquire "improved" prosthetics, and will actually make him able to adventure again. Any of the capstones and other abilities he could get from either class are delayed and/or cut off permanently from losing that arm, and even when he makes the commitment, he will be severely sub-par compared to everyone else. You take a character who's just starting his career at 1st level with this new class you're making, and he's going to be right on the curve with everyone else, versus Joe the Ex-Fighter, who will always be behind the curve and will probably always be the first to die.
I wasn't too far off. 6,000 gold is a lot for the low levels, and giving them that for free (exponentially, I might add, since it sounds like you're giving them a lot more than one) is extremely overpowering compared to the most overpowered class in the world getting access to a Masterwork version of an item (costing up to 300 gold) whose magic only works with them, can be enhanced for cost (which means they still need to pay, though only half price), and only grants a 1/day "Get Out of Jail Free" card in addition. It otherwise becomes quite limiting if it gets destroyed or stolen or what have you. It also leads to cheating and cheese, since PCs who take levels in this could make a killing just making themselves prosthetic limbs valued at 6K for free, and then sell them for 3K to some goober like Joe the Ex-Fighter, and get rich without having to spend a damn thing.
I'm baffled what point you're trying to make, and you're derailing the topic. Are you saying I shouldn't make this class?
I'm baffled what point you're trying to make, and you're derailing the topic. Are you saying I shouldn't make this class?
Not sure how I'm derailing it or how I'm not making any point. But yes, I am saying no, and for balance purposes. I said previously that using prosthetics in general would most likely incur penalties for certain builds due to how it would conjure up; I cited an example of not being able to apply Strength for activities involving that limb (or only half Strength for activities including the limb in addition to other limbs). The class mentioned doesn't fix any of those kinds of issues, and not having downsides to using prosthetics in comparison to natural limbs defeats the purpose of having a difference between the two. Additionally, PCs who do lose limbs mid-career are left with 3 choices:
1. Retire with whatever money they got left and live the rest of their days in peace.
2. Take levels in a class that allows them to keep adventuring at the cost of reduced character effectiveness (which believe me, is no fun for anyone, and is exactly what I mean when I say "shoehorn" people into playing the class).
3. Try to adventure with the disability and end up dying a painful, horrible death for their foolishness.
Needless to say, players won't like that, and it really gimps the PCs, as I stated above in the Joe the Fighter example.
It also creates a market monopoly, assuming 6,000 gold per prosthetic limb, and granting them to the PC for free (like you stated, compared to an Arcane Bond a Wizard gets "for free"), lets the PC simply "make" these prosthetics for no cost, charge some crippled gimp 3,000 gold to have one, and rinse and repeat to throw WBL out the window, since they aren't limited whatsoever.
I can also say that being able to enhance your manufactured limbs not only nullifies the purpose of some properties, but also assures that you can't ever lose them, since you aren't allowed to sunder limbs, regardless of whether they're natural or artificial, meaning the PC is basically immune to Sunder for free.
I'm baffled what point you're trying to make, and you're derailing the topic. Are you saying I shouldn't make this class?Not sure how I'm derailing it or how I'm not making any point. But yes, I am saying no, and for balance purposes. I said previously that using prosthetics in general would most likely incur penalties for certain builds due to how it would conjure up; I cited an example of not being able to apply Strength for activities involving that limb (or only half Strength for activities including the limb in addition to other limbs). The class mentioned doesn't fix any of those kinds of issues, and not having downsides to using prosthetics in comparison to natural limbs defeats the purpose of having a difference between the two. Additionally, PCs who do lose limbs mid-career are left with 3 choices:
1. Retire with whatever money they got left and live the rest of their days in peace.
2. Take levels in a class that allows them to keep adventuring at the cost of reduced character effectiveness (which believe me, is no fun for anyone, and is exactly what I mean when I say "shoehorn" people into playing the class).
3. Try to adventure with the disability and end up dying a painful, horrible death for their foolishness.Needless to say, players won't like that, and it really gimps the PCs, as I stated above in the Joe the Fighter example.
It also creates a market monopoly, assuming 6,000 gold per prosthetic limb, and granting them to the PC for free (like you stated, compared to an Arcane Bond a Wizard gets "for free"), lets the PC simply "make" these prosthetics for no cost, charge some crippled gimp 3,000 gold to have one, and rinse and repeat to throw WBL out the window, since they aren't limited whatsoever.
I can also say that being able to enhance your manufactured limbs not only nullifies the purpose of some properties, but also assures that you can't ever lose them, since you aren't allowed to sunder limbs, regardless of whether they're natural or...
1) The class does not explicitly grant free prosthetics. The class's theme merely opens the opportunity for a GM to houserule it in case someone wants to play a robocop-like character.
2) Even if the class did offer them, they obviously wouldn't be usable by other characters.
3) A prosthetic wouldn't significantly affect a character's power level.
4) Dismemberment is not something inherent to the rules. The only way an attack dismembers someone is if the GM houserules it.
5) You CAN sunder a prosthetic and there's called shot rules.
6) I don't see how offering a class that gets prosthetics is a bad thing in the example you given when the alternatives are making the character unplayable.
7) You ARE derailing the topic because I'm asking mechanical advice, and you made this lengthy criticism against the class because of something about prosthetics and WBL.