Permanent wound system


Homebrew and House Rules


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"I used to be an adventurer but then I took an arrow to the knee". This would be try if it weren't for a large variety of healing, magic and mundane, to get people back on their feet and very little (at least there was in 3.x not sure in Pathfinder) ways of dealing any sort of long term injury like a lost arm or leg.

SO my question to people is if anyone knows of a GOOD permanent wound( scars, missing limbs, bum knee, etc.) system for D20? It can be 3rd party, homebrew, or from a non pathfinder system as long as it makes sense in a fantasy d20 system.

I appreciate the help in advance!


I used to be a poster like you, then I took an arrow to the knee.

Now, I'm just dotting for interest.

:p


Record all hit point damage you've ever taken.

If this total equals or exceeds 20% of your maximum hit points, you must make a DC 5 Constitution check after resting or your old wounds act up and you are exhausted for the next 24 hours.

For each multiple of that amount the total damage you've taken equals or exceeds, increase the DC by 1.


So essentially, every martial character is permanently exhausted eventually?

gud rule


It was a joke.


I can never tell around these parts.


I am typically loathe to discuss 3rd party products, but unfortunately, the wound system by 4 Winds got mixed in with the thing I looked at when I first got into pathfinder.

I was mostly entranced by its rules for prosthetics, since it included things like clockwork arms and even monstrous grafted limbs. I think the problems brought on by hacking parts of your players off might be lessened by the fact that there are rather affordable replacements that are basically magical items. Heck, they even have a prestige class built around people that made themselves into clockwork cyborgs...

The point is that you can have serious consequences, but you shouldn't have it permanently reduce functionality.

Silver Crusade

Perhaps a good place to start, without re inventing the wheel, is to see how your players get by with out a healer....and no access to healing magic such as the cure spells, remove disease, lesser restoration, Restoration, Regeneration, Heal, Breath of life...Raise dead etc.

See what happens with the crippling effects of disease and poisons, as they do ability damage.

Perhaps one way you could introduce the "arrow through the knee" Is to have Ability Drain.

Yeah the wizard may have survived the disease, but his constitution was chewed up. It dropped from a lofty 12, to a lowly 8. Now he has to catch his breath all the time....and he cant take nearly the punishment he used to be able to....(lower hit points). Oh have we forgotten, He now is more likely to get sick ( lowered saves because of lower con).

How about a critical hit doing ability damage......yeah his blade got buy my guard and he hamstrung me......now I need to get by with a crutch. ( lowered movement, and a dexterity lowered from a 14 to a 7)

I don't know, that might be a good place to start.

I hope this helps.

Sczarni

lemeres wrote:

I am typically loathe to discuss 3rd party products, but unfortunately, the wound system by 4 Winds got mixed in with the thing I looked at when I first got into pathfinder.

I was mostly entranced by its rules for prosthetics, since it included things like clockwork arms and even monstrous grafted limbs. I think the problems brought on by hacking parts of your players off might be lessened by the fact that there are rather affordable replacements that are basically magical items. Heck, they even have a prestige class built around people that made themselves into clockwork cyborgs...

The point is that you can have serious consequences, but you shouldn't have it permanently reduce functionality.

They never asked for this...


The Lion Cleric wrote:
They never asked for this...
Lord Phrofet wrote:
SO my question to people is if anyone knows of a GOOD permanent wound( scars, missing limbs, bum knee, etc.) system for D20? It can be 3rd party, homebrew, or from a non pathfinder system as long as it makes sense in a fantasy d20 system.


Lemeres: That is a good example of the more severe things that could happen, penalties for it and how to fix. Now the issue is how do I get to the missing limb? And more minor things like missing a finger, or too many attacks to the ribs over the years...


lemeres wrote:
The Lion Cleric wrote:
They never asked for this...
Lord Phrofet wrote:
SO my question to people is if anyone knows of a GOOD permanent wound( scars, missing limbs, bum knee, etc.) system for D20? It can be 3rd party, homebrew, or from a non pathfinder system as long as it makes sense in a fantasy d20 system.

Deus Ex reference, bud. We're getting a whole lot of 'a swing and a miss' jokes tonight.


Lord Phrofet wrote:
Lemeres: That is a good example of the more severe things that could happen, penalties for it and how to fix. Now the issue is how do I get to the missing limb? And more minor things like missing a finger, or too many attacks to the ribs over the years...

Not much help I can offer there. I know that 4 winds also has some feats, one of which introduces 'sever' as a maneuver. But overall, it seems to paint in much broader strokes than what you are looking for.

Oh, but for Paizo material, apparently there is an achievement feat called History of Scars which is based around how much HP damage you get over your career (and it even has a mechanic where magic healing messes with your total). Interesting feat (-2 to CHA skills in return for +2 natural armor)...although it disregards how intimidate could be helped by scars.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

there's always massive damage rules, if you take more than half your HP in damage and it's more than 50, BAM, your now thematically scarred for the rest of your years or at the cost of a wish.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lord Phrofet wrote:

"I used to be an adventurer but then I took an arrow to the knee". This would be try if it weren't for a large variety of healing, magic and mundane, to get people back on their feet and very little (at least there was in 3.x not sure in Pathfinder) ways of dealing any sort of long term injury like a lost arm or leg.

SO my question to people is if anyone knows of a GOOD permanent wound( scars, missing limbs, bum knee, etc.) system for D20? It can be 3rd party, homebrew, or from a non pathfinder system as long as it makes sense in a fantasy d20 system.

I appreciate the help in advance!

One could implement the Traveller system, and if you roll real lucky, you can cripple or kill your character before even starting play, a tremendous time saver.

Again, one has to ask, what's the point of putting this in a system that's built on heroic fantasy? The idea is to have characters that die gloriously in battle, not at home in a wheelchair.


The concept of permanent damage is interesting, but also quite out of place with the d20 system, specialy fantasy derivates.
It should be something finely balanced that occurs seldom, and takes in account the group and style of play. In a dungeon crawling, combat heavy, build optimized situation players would prefer to let the PC die and roll a new one. Longer campaigns, sandboxes, storydriven adventures the PC could manage a big setback.

From a mechanical point of view instead of working around hp, that are an abstraction where taking damage it doesn't mean wounded, it could be built around dying.

Something on the line: each time a PC drops below 0 hp is at risk of permanent injury. If, while trying to stabilize, he misses one roll for more than ten he gets a permanent injury, depending on how many he misses the injury is bigger (one miss = scar, two misses = lost finger...) if he dies he gets a major injury like a severed limb.

I reckon only death should carry a permanent ability loss (as it was in previous editions) otherwise player wil found themselves very penalized.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Given the abstract nature of combat (in all d20 games), how are you even going to know that a given arrow hit you in the knee? Sure, it did 7 points of damage (say), but we usually don't localize damage at all.

There is an alternate system in one of the PF books for localized damage. Wouldn't want to use it though.

IIRC it was in the 80s that the ICE system came out with highly detailed and devastating critical hit results tables - that occupied dozens and dozens of pages. Everyone engaging in combat was pretty much assured of becoming very dead or very crippled in very short order.

Is this really what we want in our heroic fantasy games?


Only for the martials. The casters can avoid damage altogether, because MAGIC!


This is the wound system I use in one of the PF games I'm in.

Granted the setting is a custom one based heavily on ancient Rome. It's also used with a slightly modified wounds/vigor system. (Heal skill also revamped to accomodate wounds).

So far the Monk has lost an arm (we pitched in for a regenerate) but no other body parts lost. Although, my wizard almost outright died when an Elven Bodyguard crit him in the head.


"Arrow to the knee" is actually a metaphore for getting married.

Setting that aside

The Pirate books have some stuff on more permanent injuries what with wanting to encourage Peg Legs and all


My players don't die from hit point loss until the end of their turn. Should they somehow get that last second healing and survive after having dropped below the death threshold, I make sure they come away scarred (random table of body parts and maladies!). In my current game, the wizard is down to nine fingers and the monk has a trick knee.


This sort of reminds me of the old Rolemaster system.

Such as getting hit and then finding out that the axe just crushed your leg and it is now a bleeding stump, then the next blow swipes of your hand, and finally you lose your left eye to a final hit as you kill the baddie.

So many reasons to avoid combat in Rolemaster at times...


I like the Pathfinder Called Shot rules. J just also allow players to, at their discretion, use a coup de grace attempt to amputate a creature.


As someone who enjoys playing martial characters, why would you do this?

Martial characters already get the short end of the stick, now under your system because they take a bit of damage (that the wizard will be sure to avoid as all the martials protect him) now they become permanently crippled or inconvienced. No thanks.

This is a terrible idea. Attempting to introduce such "realism" into a game of high magic will make players decide only to look out for themselves and avoid damage as much as possible instead of working as a group because of these unavoidable penalties.

Don't do it.


Claxon wrote:

As someone who enjoys playing martial characters, why would you do this?

Martial characters already get the short end of the stick, now under your system because they take a bit of damage (that the wizard will be sure to avoid as all the martials protect him) now they become permanently crippled or inconvienced. No thanks.

This is a terrible idea. Attempting to introduce such "realism" into a game of high magic will make players decide only to look out for themselves and avoid damage as much as possible instead of working as a group because of these unavoidable penalties.

Don't do it.

Eh, I kind of like the idea if you work it under Kadance's system. If it is simply a part of the 'I better not fall under 0hp or bad things happen' idea, then it can be workable. At least it it was just scars and weird things that never amount to much of a combat penalty ("Due to the rain, your knee is acting up. Take 1d2 non lethal damage per day the weather persists")


Permanent wounds are a cute idea... Though I have yet to see them implemented well for a d20 system.

Probably better fit, thematically and mechanically, with a "Wounds and Vigor" type system. Just not PF's, it seems like it was half-arsed.


I think the simple rule has already been more or less discussed but how about this for some codification?

Every time a character is reduced to below 0 hit points, she must make a DC 10 fortitude save or roll on a chart of wounds and penalties (most of which should impart only minor mechanical penalties or be cosmetic like lemere's hurt knee example). Let's say that this chart has 10 or 20 things on it with all 10 being equally likely.

If your character was knocked out by a critical hit, the DC for this save is 20. If you were knocked out by a death effect or save or some other save or die spell then no scar roll is needed.

Edit: maybe it should be DC 15 for a x2 crit weapon, DC 20 for a x3 crit weapon, or a DC 25 for a x4 crit weapon. Then add an additional +5 for hypothetical x5 crit weapons or whatever.

I would then propose that there be a second worse chart that players must roll on if their fortitude save comes up as a natural 1. Alternately, a character may have to roll on the second chart in the event that they receive the same wound twice from the first chart (at least any other wound besides "cosmetic scar").

Wounds can still be removed with the 7th level cleric spell Regenerate. However, this should have a component cost (1k gpx character level maybe?) and perhaps can only be cast on the same character once a month or year.

All that is left to do is make the two charts.


Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Permanent wounds are a cute idea... Though I have yet to see them implemented well for a d20 system.

Probably better fit, thematically and mechanically, with a "Wounds and Vigor" type system. Just not PF's, it seems like it was half-arsed.

Yeah I use the Wounds and Vigor system. But generally, permanent wounds only come from called shots and called shot coup-de-graces in my game.


lemeres wrote:
Claxon wrote:

As someone who enjoys playing martial characters, why would you do this?

Martial characters already get the short end of the stick, now under your system because they take a bit of damage (that the wizard will be sure to avoid as all the martials protect him) now they become permanently crippled or inconvienced. No thanks.

This is a terrible idea. Attempting to introduce such "realism" into a game of high magic will make players decide only to look out for themselves and avoid damage as much as possible instead of working as a group because of these unavoidable penalties.

Don't do it.

Eh, I kind of like the idea if you work it under Kadance's system. If it is simply a part of the 'I better not fall under 0hp or bad things happen' idea, then it can be workable. At least it it was just scars and weird things that never amount to much of a combat penalty ("Due to the rain, your knee is acting up. Take 1d2 non lethal damage per day the weather persists")

That's not bad. That would be an acceptable sort of thing to me.

But to that end, I'd just use what is outlined in the Player's Guide to Skull and Shackles, pg 4. You roll a fort save flat DC 15. If you fail you're reduced to -1 hp and roll on a table. *Note, this would be instead of death. So as long as you haven't been reduced to where you would normally die, you're fine. The Player's Guide suggest using it for Massive Damage instead of normal rules, and that would be fine too.

On the table there is only a 30% chance of a serious detriment, the rest are all pretty easy to deal with. And could all be healed with regeneration of the like, which while a high level option would mean you're unlikely to get anything to permanent for to long.

And that is how it should be if you're going to implement it. Most players, at least myself, would honestly rather have a character die (and reroll a new one) than be play a permanently crippled and ineffective character.

The Exchange

Which brings me to a point I was pondering myself. Given the (relatively) modest cost of regenerate spells, I can't really see anybody replacing their limbs with magical prosthetics. Anybody aware of a way to produce {relatively) cheap "parts" in the cyborg style? I was looking at ways to use Craft Wondrous Item built around the animate rope spell, though even then a hand full of 'animated' string-tendons would be 2000 gp or so, compared to 910 gp (right?) to have a 7th-level spell cast on you.

And yes, I know that prosthetics that give any statistical bonuses would be "worth" the extra cost (slotless item!) - but we all know what kind of behavior that would encourage:

Murderhobo: The new arm gives me +1 Strength? I lop off my other arm! Oh, Doctor, I had another accident... Clumsy me!


Lincoln Hills wrote:

Which brings me to a point I was pondering myself. Given the (relatively) modest cost of regenerate spells, I can't really see anybody replacing their limbs with magical prosthetics. Anybody aware of a way to produce {relatively) cheap "parts" in the cyborg style? I was looking at ways to use Craft Wondrous Item built around the animate rope spell, though even then a hand full of 'animated' string-tendons would be 2000 gp or so, compared to 910 gp (right?) to have a 7th-level spell cast on you.

And yes, I know that prosthetics that give any statistical bonuses would be "worth" the extra cost (slotless item!) - but we all know what kind of behavior that would encourage:

Murderhobo: The new arm gives me +1 Strength? I lop off my other arm! Oh, Doctor, I had another accident... Clumsy me!

Well luckily, the Technology Guide is coming out with rules for cyborg parts. I believe there was a limit on cyborg implants based on your Con Mod. So I think that would be a good limiter.

The Exchange

I've seen it before (Shadowrun and d20 Future). I wasn't much impressed with its plausibility or its effectiveness as a limiter.

Now, if it actually took away magic item slots (fills them permanently), that'd be a real limitation. But still leaves the 'problem' (very nice for folks who don't want to become unholy abominations of science, but a problem for GMs who want a bit of Perdido flavor) that it's cheaper to have a cleric grow back the real one. ;)


Lincoln Hills wrote:

Which brings me to a point I was pondering myself. Given the (relatively) modest cost of regenerate spells, I can't really see anybody replacing their limbs with magical prosthetics. Anybody aware of a way to produce {relatively) cheap "parts" in the cyborg style? I was looking at ways to use Craft Wondrous Item built around the animate rope spell, though even then a hand full of 'animated' string-tendons would be 2000 gp or so, compared to 910 gp (right?) to have a 7th-level spell cast on you.

And yes, I know that prosthetics that give any statistical bonuses would be "worth" the extra cost (slotless item!) - but we all know what kind of behavior that would encourage:

Murderhobo: The new arm gives me +1 Strength? I lop off my other arm! Oh, Doctor, I had another accident... Clumsy me!

With the 4 winds stuff I was talking about, there is actually a feat for that. Yes, a feat to cut your own limbs off. Yes, it sounded like a bad idea, even in a set of rules with such enhancements (because you can only use it 4 times, right? Terrible as a feat, particularly since the enemies can do it for you if they use the right maneuver. Maybe it would be worth it as a spell to give you 'courage'. The material component would be a bottle of whiskey)

Also....their replacement arms take up the hand slot when they are magical. Yeah.... Admittedly, I think the clockwork arm gives a bonus and isn't actually magical.


I'd suggest putting a time limit on how old a wound can be and still have regeneration affect it; much as the various raise from death spells stipulate how long someone can be dead for and still be affected.


Lincoln Hills wrote:

I've seen it before (Shadowrun and d20 Future). I wasn't much impressed with its plausibility or its effectiveness as a limiter.

Now, if it actually took away magic item slots (fills them permanently), that'd be a real limitation. But still leaves the 'problem' (very nice for folks who don't want to become unholy abominations of science, but a problem for GMs who want a bit of Perdido flavor) that it's cheaper to have a cleric grow back the real one. ;)

I don't know what other limitations there are beyond something based on the Con score (or modifier). Nor do we know the bonuses yet.


How about use a modified Wound and Vigor system that has hit locations? Also bump up the material cost of repair spells --this especially works in a setting featuring a great divide between the rich and poor -- the rich are able to get themselves repaired to GATTACA Valid standards, whereas the poor are left hacked up and disease-wrecked, and those in the middle class can be dropped into poverty by even a single permanent damage event. Actually sounds like a familiar situation, except that Earth medical technology is less proficient than magic at a lot of things like this, thus limiting even the rich in our world.


In Cyberpunk 2020 the rule was that too much implants would drive you crazy, you begin being a sociopath with murdery behavior and special corps police would hunt you down


We're unsure how the cybernetic transplants will cost. Though I'd imagine that the common person wouldn't be able to afford it, even with skills in Profession. And they'd have to get to a large town to pay for castings of Make Whole, or a small town for Mending. That'd still be a couple gold that the average person would have to save up to get. So I think the repair spells would be fine. Though obviously, adventurers wouldn't have to worry about it since they hunt for gold and treasures.


Sorry, I meant bump up the cost of the biological repair spells (not just the "Cure" series, but also Remove {various bad conditions}, Regenerate, etc. The object repair spells are probably fine as is.


Maybe. Still think it could work as is, since by the CRB, buying those would cost the average person a decent amount. Especially Regenerate, which is the only one of those spells that can grow a limb back. 910 gp would be a lot for a peasant, and more if they don't live in a metropolis. Though obviously for adventurers it's not a problem later on.


Instead of a new set of rules for permanent wounds, you may talk with you GM about having a -2 to something to represent your injury and roleplay it that way. i.e: you want to represent that you got an Arrow in the knee, you talk to your GM about a -2 to run skill check and maybe a -5ft to speed (this would reflect nicely having a bad knee, without being to harsh on fighting skills). If your GM is of the generous kind, he may award you roleplay xp or allow you a bonus to something else or may give you a magic item...

The Exchange

lemeres wrote:
...there is actually a feat for that. Yes, a feat to cut your own limbs off. Yes, it sounded like a bad idea, even in a set of rules with such enhancements (because you can only use it 4 times, right? Terrible as a feat, particularly since the enemies can do it for you if they use the right maneuver. Maybe it would be worth it as a spell to give you 'courage'. The material component would be a bottle of whiskey)...

Having just brushed up on The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, I can state that you're getting it mixed up. It was the Tin Woodsman who kept chopping his own limbs off, and it was the Cowardly Lion who received a gift of courage... in a bottle. (Somehow that didn't make it into the film version!)

Cowardly Lion: Ain't it the truth? Ain't it the truth?


Ability drain does a good job of abstracting out minor limb damage (severed fingers, broken bones, etc). The major problem is, at least with broken bones, they DO heal naturally, and ability drain does not do this. Ability damage heals naturally, but at a rate too quick to accurately reflect a broken bone.

If one was to try to expand on this, some tasks that would need to be done:

Determine a way to actually GET these injuries.
Determine what impairments result from these injury types.
Determine a way to heal these injuries.

Some ideas for injuries:
Critical Hit/Fumble decks
20 on critical confirm
Torture

Some ideas for impairments and healing:

Loss of a finger:
1d2 pt Dex damage (adaptable impairment)
1d2-1 pt Dex drain (non-adaptable impariment)
Special:If missing more than two fingers on a single hand, any action performed with that hand receives a -4 penalty.
Healed By:Ability damage naturally recovered, or faster via Restoration magic. Ability drain only via Regeneration magic, or magical prosthesis.

Broken Leg:
1d2 pt Dex damage (adaptable impairment)
1d2 pt Str damage (adaptable impairment)
1d3-1 pt Dex drain (non-adaptable impairment)
1d3-1 pt Str drain (non-adaptable impairment)
Special: -5ft speed loss for each point of ability drain
Healed By: Ability damage naturally recovered, or faster via Restoration magic. Ability drain via Restoration or Regeneration magic.
One week after injury, Fort save DC-15 to naturally heal 1 pt of ability drain. This save can be attempted each subsequent week for a number of weeks equal to the number of ability drain points initially taken. Any ability drain remaining after the saves can only be restored magically (bones did not set properly).

Internal Trauma
1d3-1 pt Con damage
1d3-1 pt Str damage
1d2-1 pt Con drain
Healed By: Ability damage naturally recovered, or faster via Restoration magic. Ability drain via Restoration or Regeneration magic.

Head Trauma
1d2-1 Int damage
1d2-1 Wis damage
1d2-1 Cha damage
1d2-1 Int drain
1d2-1 Wis drain
Healed By: Ability damage naturally recovered, or faster via Restoration magic. Ability drain via Restoration or Regeneration magic.


It's just a flesh wound.


Actually, anyone still interested in this might want to go to this thread.

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