Alternative to multiple attacks per round and streamlining combat


Homebrew and House Rules


Wasn't sure where else to post this, I apologize in advance if this isn't the correct place . So I'm about to launch my very first Pathfinder campaign via online virtual tabletop (hooray for technology!). As I was setting up my houserules, I started reflecting on all the PnP campaigns I've played over the years (not just D&D but other RPGs from other publishers as well) and one thing they call have in common is that combat takes a long time to get through, especially at higher levels. Most of the time, this is due to having to make excessive attack rolls from multiple attacks. I remember in Star Wars Saga Edition they did away with multiple attacks (there were a few exceptions) and focused on players having mostly just one attack plus several feats/talents etc to boost the overall damage made with your single attack. My question is, would such a thing be viable in Pathfinder? I feel that making multiple attacks slows down combat especially at higher levels where your last few attacks are very unlikely to hit. Iterative attacks are great for mowing through a villain's low AC cannon-fodder henchmen but aren't likely to hit the main villain who will have a high AC, plenty of HP, and spells/magical protection. Maybe I'm spoiled because I've been exposed to other RPGs but I feel that the whole "BAB -5 for multiple attacks" is a glaring weakness of the D&D 3.x system. I'm hoping to streamline the multiple attack process. I realize that I'm basically trying to change something that the whole game was balanced around, but I feel that I'm on to something here.

What I propose is that all players and enemies don't receive multiple attacks anymore. Instead, they will need to make use of some feats to make multiple attacks:

Houserule: Bonus Damage
All players (and villains/monsters with class levels) receive a damage bonus of one-half their level rounded down. This is due to a weapon being more deadly in the hands of a more skilled character. This extra damage is not multiplied during a critical hit, it is a flat bonus added on to every successful melee or ranged attack. This bonus does not apply to spells and is lost if you make more than one attack per round.

Double Strike
You can strike twice in succession.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6, Proficient with weapon.
Benefit: When making a full attack you may make two strikes as a single attack roll against one or two targets within reach. You take a -5 penalty on your attack roll but deal +2 dice of damage. Divide the damage by two against the target's DR if any. If the attack roll hits both targets, you can divide the damage equally among the two targets.
Special: This feat is automatically granted to any character that meets the prerequisites.

Triple Strike
You can strike thrice in succession.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +11, Double Strike, Proficient with weapon.
Benefit: When you make a full attack you may make three strikes as a single attack roll against one, two, or three targets within reach. You take a -10 penalty on your attack roll but deal +3 dice of damage. Divide the damage by three against the target's DR if any. If the attack roll hits the AC of the targets, you can divide the total damage equally among the targets.
Special: This feat is automatically granted to any character that meets the prerequisites.

>
>
>

Another way to gain multiple attacks would be through dual-wielding. However, I don't want to use the TWF/Improved TWF/Greater TWF feats from Pathfinder as they contradict the whole theme of trying to keep attacks down to a minimum. I was thinking something along these lines:

Two-Weapon Fighting
You are adept at fighting with two weapons and double weapons.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 15, Base Attack Bonus +1, Proficient with weapon.
Benefit: You may attack with two weapons or with both ends of a double weapon during a full attack at a -5 penalty on all attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Normal: If you take a full attack action to make more than one attack on your turn, you take a -10 penalty on all attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Special: You cannot combine Double Strike or Triple Strike with this feat.

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
You are an expert at fighting with two weapons and double weapons.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Base Attack Bonus +6, Two-Weapon Fighting, Proficient with weapon.
Benefit: You may attack with two weapons or with both ends of a double weapon during a full attack at a -2 penalty on all attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Normal: If you take a full attack action to make more than one attack on your turn, you take a -10 penalty on all attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Special: You cannot combine Double Strike or Triple Strike with this feat.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
You are a master at fighting with two weapons and double weapons.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 17, Base Attack Bonus +11, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, Proficient with weapon.
Benefit: You may attack with two weapons or with both ends of a double weapon during a full attack with no penalties.
Normal: If you take a full attack action to make more than one attack on your turn, you take a -10 penalty on all attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Special: You cannot combine Double Strike or Triple Strike with this feat.

>
>
>

As you can see here, you are incentivized to make a single, accurate attack most of the time. You generally don't want to make multiple attacks against someone such as the main villain who has a high AC. When dealing with cannon-fodder lackeys of the main villain, multiple attacks are a great way to speed through the more menial battles, especially if using the 1HP monster rules as found in 4th Ed. Also note that monsters/villains will generally be restricted to one attack per round as well, although they will have access to double/triple strike too. If you have to make multiple attacks it is resolved with a single attack-roll albeit at a steep penalty. Because it's treated as one attack roll, you only apply your strength modifier ONCE. Also, magical weapon enhancement damage (such as flaming/frost/shocking etc) is also only applied once even during multiple attacks. Precision-based damage such as sneak attacks are also only applied once per round. Damage from double/triple strike has to be divided in whole points as equally as possible, so for example if a fighter uses dual-strike against two ogres and rolls a total of 11 points of damage, one ogre takes 6 points of damage and the other takes 5. If a player were to use dual strike against a target that has DR and hits the creature with both attacks, you divide the damage by two and compare both to the DR. So if a creature had DR 3/- and took 10 damage from double strike, it would be compared as two 5hp attacks (each being reduced by 3 so ultimately the creature would only take 4 damage). Alternatively, if a character were to use triple-strike against a creature with DR of say 15/+1 (and didn't have a magical weapon), and rolled a total of 24 damage, you would divide that by 3 which comes to 8 damage per strike, which wouldn't make a scratch on the creature.

Note that when using normal dual-wielding, all the normal rules apply (EX: full strength bonus on main hand, 1/2 strength bonus on off-hand, each weapon can be magically enchanted and both attacks are tracked with two separate attack rolls etc). The one main advantage of dual-wielding is being able to completely get rid of all attack penalties once you have Greater TWF, which to me is a fair trade compared to what the feats do in the book (Eg: by time you have greater TWF, you'll have 6 attacks but only 2 or 3 actually have any chance to hit).

The one real weakness of these rules are critical hits. A smart player will grab a great-axe (or any other x3 crit weapon) and attempt to triple-attack. If he scores a critical hit, he will end up dealing 1D12 x3= 3D12 base weapon damage plus 3 dice from triple strike for a total 6D12 damage + strength and a half modifier + his weapon's magic enhancements. I can easily see 50+ points of damage occur this way.

I apologize if this was a long-winded post, I just wanted to touch base with the community at large and get some opinions. Is what I'm doing viable, or are there better ways to streamline combat?


This just forces people to take feats to get the extra attacks, and it puts martials at a huge disadvantage. Many creatures in the bestiary still get all of their full attacks, and they need them to not lose effectiveness.

A -10 is a HUGE penalty. You will end up with a party of casters most likely.

Multiple attacks are not really that bad as long as your players are not too slow. Enemies are just harder to kill at higher levels, so you making the martials get less attacks will actually extend the fight, unless you have an SoD/SoS caster.

Also if your martial is built to hit, that 2nd attack will hit, and if he is buffed and well made the 3rd attack might be likely to hit also.

Boss fights might be more difficult, but not every fight is a boss fight.

I have a level 15 martial in my game with about a +35 to hit. That means even his 2nd attack is close to a +30. Even CR 20 monsters are not normally going to have a 40 AC unless they are buffed.

Before you ask, yes it is rules legal, and not due to house rules.

sample martial

15 BAB
+8 ability mod
+1 weapon focus
+3 magical weapon

That is a +27 without even trying
Once you add in a class features from a barbarian, ranger, paladin, or fighter you are over 30, and more than capable of landing the extra attacks.


This reminds me a great deal of Star Wars Saga Edition rules (SWSE). Is this where you drew inspiration?

Adapting that system's solution to iterative attacks would require you to adapt the penalties. The standard penalty/bonus progression is a bit different from the D&D & Pathfinder iterations of 3.x.


I don't see how your system reduces the length of combats significantly. You have created a more complicated system which requires multiplication and division on top of the usual addition/subtraction, which is going to increase the calculative load on your players. Furthermore, it's a direct nerf to martials (-10 on all attacks?), and I don't see how that helps anyone. Iteratives are built into the core mathematics of 3.X and removing them is not a simple process.

My suggestion if you want to keep things fast and snappy is twofold:

a) play low level or E6 games

b) adopt time-saving combat strategies, such as limiting the amount of time a player is allowed to think on their own turn, asking them to pre-roll attacks/damage dice and always having spell text and effects on hand before casting.

if this doesn't work for you:

c) play a different, fast system.


Iteratives perform an important function in increasing the meaningful AC range. You cannot safely remove them unless attack rolls become an opposed check to increase the range of variance. Damage also needs to be made to scale more directly with level in their absence.


Da'ath wrote:

This reminds me a great deal of Star Wars Saga Edition rules (SWSE). Is this where you drew inspiration?

Adapting that system's solution to iterative attacks would require you to adapt the penalties. The standard penalty/bonus progression is a bit different from the D&D & Pathfinder iterations of 3.x.

Yes, SWSE is exactly where I got my inspiration.

Thanks everyone for the feedback, I guess DnD 3.5 & Pathfinder are built around the multiple attacks. Martial classes are at a serious disadvantage here. Back to the drawing board lol.


Martials don't slow down combat at higher levels. Casters are the reason for that.

When you're looking at one to two dozen open spell slots and more than 50 spells to choose from, casters can get real indecisive about what spells to memorize and what spells they're going to cast in combat.

If you want to speed up combat - look at nerfing casters (they need a power curve drop anyways).


Combat is not slowed down by the iterative attacks rather it is slowed down by too many other options. Rolling to hit only takes as long as it takes to add up the dice. High level spells, Special abilities, rules lawyers, rules lawyering, etc. these are the things I hate to deal with as DM. They can bog down combat to a crawl. If you want a stream lined game look at E6.


Update: I've located some alternate rules similar to what I'm trying to do. More info found here: http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Alternative_Iterative_Attacks_(3.5e_Variant_Ru le)

In a nutshell, when you're at +6 BAB you can make 2 attacks at a -3 penalty, or +3/+3. At +11 you reduce the penalties by 1, in other words attack twice at +9/+9. And finally at +16 BAB you reduce the penalty again by 1 (two attacks at +15/+15). This actually gives fighters the advantage whenever he doesn't need to roll either super low (a natural 2 or 3) or super high (a natural 18 or 19) to hit an enemy.

Two weapon fighting looks like this:

-7 to attacks made with 2 weapons. If the weapon in offhand is a light weapon, reduce the penalty by 1, or -6 penalty.

TWF feat: reduce the penalties for fighting w/ two weapons by 5. In other words, -1 penalty if using a light weapon, or -2 if offhand weapon isn't light.

Improved TWF: When taking a full-attack action, you may take another iterative attack with your off-hand weapon in addition to the one normally taken. This iterative attack is at your highest attack bonus as normal, and is subject to the penalties of fighting with two weapons.

Greater TWF: The penalty to attacks from fighting with two weapons is reduced by an additional one. Thus, the penalty is reduced to -0 when fighting with a light weapon in your off-hand, or -1 when fighting with a one-handed weapon in your off-hand.

So let's assume that we have a 6th level fighter (or a ranger) with 18 Str that's dual wielding a long and short sword. The fighter has the TWF feat. He makes a full attack against a nasty Drider. So his attack penalties are as follows: -3 for his normal attacks, -1 for fighting w/ two weapons one of which is light. So we have +6/+6/+6 plus any magic weapon bonuses, weapon specialization, feats etc. Under the normal system, the fighter's attacks would be +8/+8/+3 (for 2 attacks plus TWF penalties) plus any Str and magic weapon bonuses.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Alternative to multiple attacks per round and streamlining combat All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules