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When I stand from a prone position, using a move action.
Do I move?
This is relevant in the context of a 5 ft step.
My own belief is that a) it's a move action in it's own right, that involves movement... hence when we look at the rule for 5 ft, we can't 5 ft after standing from prone.
Stand Up
Standing up from a prone position requires a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity.
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.
Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
it seems to me the only distinction is that if you move no actual distance comes down to if you include the vertical plane or not.
we know that if you fly (move 5ft or more) straight vertical you have to take a check for movement....
it would seem logical that movement from prone to standing (effectively at the x plan to 5 ft above x plane) requires actual movement.
FAQ?
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Movement refers to a move action that means you move out of your square, not including movement in your own square (such as standing or dropping to the floor).
Move-equivalent actions refers to all other types of non-movement that count as a move action, such as drawing a weapon, or standing from prone.
So standing is a move-equivalent action, and you can 5ft step, but can't take any other movement to other squares if you do so.
The rules are oriented toward two dimensions. There is no mechanical sense in which prone is a different location than standing. You're in the same space, but with the prone condition or not. Standing up is a move equivalent action that doesn't transport you any distance in any sense that the game simulates distance.
You don't occupy one side of a cube or another. You're either in one cube or in another cube. Since standing up doesn't involve you jumping to the cube above your head, you're still at the same vertical position as when you started.
Saying that standing is moving would be like saying that moving your arm to grab a potion or wield a sword is "moving". You're not expected to be totally motionless when you take a move equivalent action. As long as you don't actually leave your square, you can still do the 5 foot step.
In summary, yes you can stand and take a 5 foot step. Or if you have a belt of the weasel, you can do a 5 foot crawl and then stand.
I really don't like that.
I would houserule against it.
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Movement refers to a move action that means you move out of your square, not including movement in your own square (such as standing or dropping to the floor).
can you provide a reference for this opinion?
So standing is a move-equivalent action, and you can 5ft step, but can't take any other movement to other squares if you do so.
I find nothing that distinguishes taking a move action to be anything other than movement, except drawing a weapon as a part of a move action
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"You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."
The distance between the square where you started prone and the square after you stood up is 0 feet. You have not moved any actual distance in game terms. You have simply moved around within your own square, which is a move equivalent action.
As long as your move action doesn't involve you leaving your original square it doesn't stop you from taking a 5 foot step that round.
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Core Rule Book - Page 189 - Miscellaneous Actions - TAKE 5 FOOT STEP
"...You can't take more than one 5-Foot step in a round and you can't take a 5-step in the same round that you move any distance."
I think this sentence makes it pretty clear that only movement that involves "distance" prevents you from taking a 5 foot step. Since standing up from PRONE is NOT moving distance, it is therefore a move equivalent action and you can five foot step after standing up and possibly taking an AOO.
I know that terminology can be confusing at time but don't mistake the meaning of the verb move with the game action move. Moving distance prevents you from a 5 foot step. Moving by standing up from prone, or loading a crossbow does not. It would be better to label these as move equivalent actions rather than move actions in my opinion.
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Most of the combat rules were cut/paste from 3.5 (apart from stuff they deliberately changed, like CMB and CMD). However, they shortened some descriptions to save space, and left out some examples, both to save space and because Paizo don't have the rights to the WotC iconic characters they use in those examples, such as Tordek the dwarf fighter.
This means that it's useful to check the 3.5 wording to help clarify what some things mean. The rules engine stayed the same....apart from things they deliberately changed.
Although I was looking for a different reason, I came across something that we were talking about in the game. Sometimes you know a rule, but can't remember exactly where you know it from.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
Compare this to:-
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. For instance, rather than moving your speed and attacking, you could stand up and move your speed (two move actions), put away a weapon and climb one-quarter of your speed (two move actions), or pick up an item and stow it in your backpack (two move actions).
If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions, such as standing up), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action. For example, if Tordek is on the ground, he can stand up (a move action), move 5 feet (a 5-foot step), and then attack.
The reasons behind the game disallowing a 5-foot step with a move is that you could sneakily move more than your speed, and/or sneakily move both before and after your standard action, like a cheeky Spring Attack. So you can't take a 5-foot step if you move from your space, from the square(s) you occupy. There's no problem if your move-equivalent action doesn't change what square you're in.
The 5-foot step rule has not changed. The rule wording is identical; only the examples were cut.
Therefore, the same words that meant Tordek could stand up, 5-foot step, then attack, mean that Valeros can do exactly the same in PF because the rule wording is identical.
You've moved from a prone to a standing position, you can't do a five foot adjustment in the same turn, you can move 5 feet if you want, but that's a move, not an adjustment and it can provoke.
Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
The action named "Move" is the only move action that prevents taking a 5' step. The action named "Move" involves moving some fraction of your speed. Does standing from prone require the use of any of your squares of movement? No, it does not. Therefore, standing from prone is a move action but not the action named Move and you can still 5' step afterward.
Since getting up from prone is more complex than a 5 foot adjustment, it counts as movement, even if you don't cover any squares of distance. That's why it provokes. You can only make a 5 foot adjustment in a turn where you have taken no movement whatsoever.
Are you even reading this thread? You're ignoring a lot of evidence that you really shouldn't be ignoring and simply posting your own unsupported opinions.
The fact is that you are objectively wrong on this one. The rule on this is well established. You should at this point seek to understand your mistake. It would help if you stopped and read all the other posts in this thread first, before making another statement that is already proven incorrect.
Since getting up from prone is more complex than a 5 foot adjustment, it counts as movement, even if you don't cover any squares of distance. That's why it provokes. You can only make a 5 foot adjustment in a turn where you have taken no movement whatsoever.
Whether or not standing from prone provokes has no bearing on whether or not you can 5' step. It does not say you can't take a 5' step if you have taken a move action that provokes. If that was the case you could not drink a potion and take a 5' step because that is a move action that provoked and by your argument that counts as movement. So your argument that a move action that provokes = moving distance is incorrect. The RAW is that you cannot take a 5' step if you have moved any distance, i.e. taken the action named Move. Distance in PF is measured in squares. If you do not change squares you can still take a 5' step. Standing from prone does not require a change of square so you can still take a 5' step.
Also entirely separate the complexity of an action doesn't determine whether or not it provokes or counts as movement. Casting a spell defensively is even more complex than casting a spell normally as you are both casting and evading attacks but does not provoke.
Since getting up from prone is more complex than a 5 foot adjustment, it counts as movement, even if you don't cover any squares of distance.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
Well, if you already agree that standing up isn't moving distance, I don't see your argument.
You are always moving in your own square. That's why you get Dex and Dodge bonuses, and why if you are paralyzed or helpless you don't get them (you can't move). That doesn't prevent you from 5 foot stepping.
It has to be movement that covers distance. Standing up does not.
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Since getting up from prone is more complex than a 5 foot adjustment, it counts as movement, even if you don't cover any squares of distance. That's why it provokes. You can only make a 5 foot adjustment in a turn where you have taken no movement whatsoever.You've moved from a prone to a standing position, you can't do a five foot adjustment in the same turn, you can move 5 feet if you want, but that's a move, not an adjustment and it can provoke.The action named "Move" is the only move action that prevents taking a 5' step. The action named "Move" involves moving some fraction of your speed. Does standing from prone require the use of any of your squares of movement? No, it does not. Therefore, standing from prone is a move action but not the action named Move and you can still 5' step afterward.Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
If a character does not accrue distance traveled, the character can take a 5-foot step. The rule specifying this was quoted above.
Standing from prone is a move action. It is not movement for the purposes of adjudicating 5-foot step availability any more than, say, retrieving a potion from your pocket.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up provocation, as that's entirely irrelevant to the original question.
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Movement refers to a move action that means you move out of your square, not including movement in your own square (such as standing or dropping to the floor).can you provide a reference for this opinion?
The rules use the term "movement" all over the Combat chapter, and occasionally in the gist of "you can move up to your speed". You can only do that when you move out of your square.
So standing is a move-equivalent action, and you can 5ft step, but can't take any other movement to other squares if you do so.I find nothing that distinguishes taking a move action to be anything other than movement, except drawing a weapon as a part of a move action
Look at the table labelled Actions In Combat. Everything under "Move Action", except "Move" is a move-equivalent action.
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You've moved from a prone to a standing position, you can't do a five foot adjustment in the same turn, you can move 5 feet if you want, but that's a move, not an adjustment and it can provoke.
Really surprised to see you getting this one wrong LazarX.
Got side with the majority on this one.
Another way to look at it is that removing the prone condition requires the use of a move action. You have not moved (in a game-mechanical sense), you've just removed a condition with an action that provokes. You have not moved "any distance". You can 5-foot step.
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You have not moved (in a game-mechanical sense), you've just removed a condition with an action that provokes. You have not moved "any distance". You can 5-foot step.
that's kind of the thing, you have moved if you talk with most people.
If someone stood up from sitting down, or from laying down, if you ask them "did you move" most would say yes.
In the rule book we have standing from prone listed under move actions...
If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
ie you said I'm using my move action as a swift, or to perform a move equivalent action like loading a bow etc.
Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
it lists specifically swimming/climbing
So my question to folks here then is, do you allow 5ft steps after a dismount?
If so why? it's clearly movement.
For some one reading the book, unless it says "you may make a 5ft step after this" it's easy to think most things that involve any sort of movement and are listed under the move action category preclude 5ft steps as a free action.
IE: Standing from prone and dismounting.
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The RAW is that you cannot take a 5' step if you have moved any distance, i.e. taken the action named Move.
I'm in the camp of "stand up is not a movement", but this it false.
Just one example: Bull RushIf your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
I can't like Malachi's post enough, so I figured I'd link it.
+1
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The 5-foot step was created with the 3.0 D&D ruleset.
If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions, such as standing up), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
Note that this wording is identical to the wording in the 3.5 PHB, and in the PF CRB!
What do these words mean, regarding the question at hand? Well, luckily for us, he gave an example, to make the meaning of that rule clear:-
For example, if Tordek is on the ground, he can stand up (a move action), move 5 feet (a 5-foot step), and then attack.
So the guy who wrote the rule says that the consequences of those words mean that you can take a 5-foot step, after standing up as a move equivalent action.
If that rule, written with those words, mean that standing up doesn't prevent a 5-foot step, then that very same rule written in the CRB with exactly the same words results in the very same consequence: standing up doesn't prevent a 5-foot step.
that's kind of the thing, you have moved if you talk with most people.If someone stood up from sitting down, or from laying down, if you ask them "did you move" most would say yes.
In the rule book we have standing from prone listed under move actions...
But you've also just as clearly "moved" if you've done any of the other move actions, particularly manipulate an object, since you are moving your body doing things. I don't think asking what most people would say about standing up is a very good litmus test for this topic.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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You can stand up from prone and take a 5 foot step.
Who is debating this?
+1
Many many players debate this.
Also you can't draw a weapon with a stand up because that isn't a regular move.
So my question to folks here then is, do you allow 5ft steps after a dismount?
No, because you moved actual distance (you are not in the square you started.)
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So my question to folks here then is, do you allow 5ft steps after a dismount?
If so why? it's clearly movement.
For some one reading the book, unless it says "you may make a 5ft step after this" it's easy to think most things that involve any sort of movement and are listed under the move action category preclude 5ft steps as a free action.
IE: Standing from prone and dismounting.
Standing from prone and taking a 5 foot step? 100% legal. Across 3 different rules editions.
Dismounting and taking a 5 foot step? Debated, and I'd lean towards "no".
They are two different arguments.
When you stand from prone you are in the same square (or cube) that you were before you stood up. Since you did not travel any distance you may still take a 5 foot step.
Dismounting is different.
Just because the rules for dismounting are unclear doesn't mean they invalidate the rules for standing from prone.
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The answer is in the original post by lantzkev:
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
Pathfinder uses squares to represent movement. Removing the 'prone' condition through standing does not constitute 'moving any sort of distance'. The creature has moved 0 squares (or 0 feet).
There is no need for an FAQ on this. The rules state it clearly enough. The devs are just going to do is mark it as already answered (in the rules).
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This came up in my game a lot with the grease spell - is standing from prone in the grease considered movement and therefore they must make a check to stand, or because it says creatures who do not move don't make the check and are not considered flat-footed.
I ruled that it wasn't movement and you could therefore stand in the grease with no penalty, besides the normal provoke. My player didn't like that much, since he was the one throwing the grease.
You have not moved (in a game-mechanical sense), you've just removed a condition with an action that provokes. You have not moved "any distance". You can 5-foot step.that's kind of the thing, you have moved if you talk with most people.
If someone stood up from sitting down, or from laying down, if you ask them "did you move" most would say yes.
In the rule book we have standing from prone listed under move actions...
Most actions are 'moving' in the sense that normal English language uses it. How can you make a full attack without moving? But you can definitely take a 5-foot step during a full attack.
Whether it's a move action or not is irrelevant. There's nothing saying all move actions prevent 5-foot steps; just 'moving your speed' (even if you do it by sacrificing a standard action).
So my question to folks here then is, do you allow 5ft steps after a dismount?
Why should a 5-foot step be allowed in this case? I cannot think of any way to dismount without ending up in a different square.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So my question to folks here then is, do you allow 5ft steps after a dismount?Why should a 5-foot step be allowed in this case? I cannot think of any way to dismount without ending up in a different square.
Mount 5 ft steps, you still occupy all 4 squares you did, then dismount in to a square of the original 4. Cheese, but one could argue you didn't move for distance.
I'd counter by saying your mount already moved for a distance and by extension, you did also.
Think of it in terms of time not distance. The time that it takes to stand from a prone position is equal to the time it takes to make a 5' step. So, no you can not move after standing.
The rules for 5-foot steps do not use time as the determination--they use distance. So, no, better to not think of it in terms of time.
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This came up in my game a lot with the grease spell - is standing from prone in the grease considered movement and therefore they must make a check to stand, or because it says creatures who do not move don't make the check and are not considered flat-footed.
I ruled that it wasn't movement and you could therefore stand in the grease with no penalty, besides the normal provoke. My player didn't like that much, since he was the one throwing the grease.
I have to agree with you on this one, the spell itself does not say anything about standing. You could houserule a DC 10 acrobatics check in to stand, but using an action and provoking an AoO to remove the prone condition seems to be a steep enough cost for the spell already.
A question could be "Does Grease also completely remove the ability to do a 5 foot step since you can't do a 5 foot step when your movement is hampered by difficult terrain?" I would certainly argue yes since the effect of moving at half speed is a very similar penalty as the one that difficult terrain applies.
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Think of it in terms of time not distance. The time that it takes to stand from a prone position is equal to the time it takes to make a 5' step. So, no you can not move after standing.
All of these arguments, "Think of it in time not distance", "Standing from prone is more complex than a 5' step", "Most people in the real world consider getting up from prone to be moving", etc... totally ignore RAW in favor of opinions and conjecture.
By RAW the only thing that prevents a 5' step is moving any distance. Time doesn't matter. Complexity doesn't matter. The only consideration is did you move any distance?
How you define moving distance doesn't matter. How the real world defines moving distance doesn't matter. Because the rules happen to define distance and it is the rules definition that counts. The rules define distance in terms of squares. So the only consideration for whether you can 5' step or not is whether you have left one square and entered another. If you have not then you may take a 5' step.
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Think of it in terms of time not distance. The time that it takes to stand from a prone position is equal to the time it takes to make a 5' step. So, no you can not move after standing.
Think a little more about your stance. Standing from prone takes the same amount of time as any move-equivalent action.
Based on that premise, you could not take a 5 foot step any time you performed a move-equivalent action such as drawing a sword, pulling an item from a pack, or load a crossbow, etc.
...and that is not correct. the distance the creature has moved is the key factor.