My group's witch character likes to cast "stinking cloud" on vermin swarms (such as centipedes or locusts). If swarms do automatic damage, how does being nauseated affect that? I can't seem to find an answer about it and would love any references about this. Thanks!
|
7 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Obviously they do their normal damage in addition to vomiting on anyone in the swarm. I will not be swayed from an interpretation that allows me to have thousands of insects vomiting on my players.
Duiker wrote: Obviously they do their normal damage in addition to vomiting on anyone in the swarm. I will not be swayed from an interpretation that allows me to have thousands of insects vomiting on my players. Are you serious? I CAN DO THIS?!!? That is spectacular. But, Do they still do their damage? My players protest that.
Swarms do damage and inflict the distraction ability to any creature who shares a space with them.
They have to take no action to do this, just the fact that they are sharing a square counts.
Stinking cloud does not affect a swarm in any way, except that it may make it easier for them to eat your face since you might be nauseated yourself from the cloud, and slower to run.
TGMaxMaxer wrote: Swarms do damage and inflict the distraction ability to any creature who shares a space with them.
They have to take no action to do this, just the fact that they are sharing a square counts.
Stinking cloud does not affect a swarm in any way, except that it may make it easier for them to eat your face since you might be nauseated yourself from the cloud, and slower to run.
Thank you for your response. May I ask where you found this answer? I can't seem to find it in the Core Rulebook.
Nauseated does only what it says it does. Limits the creature to a single move each round. At the very most, this is all a swarm would have to deal with.
Even if you have the swarm get the nauseated condition, they do not need to make an attack to cause damage/distraction.
Beastiary, Monster rules, Swarm Traits wrote: Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. A swarm's statistics block has “swarm” in the Melee entry, with no attack bonus given. The amount of damage a swarm deals is based on its Hit Dice, as shown below. **Table omitted**
A swarm's attacks are nonmagical, unless the swarm's description states otherwise. Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack's damage to 0, being incorporeal, or other special abilities usually give a creature immunity (or at least resistance) to damage from a swarm. Some swarms also have acid, blood drain, poison, or other special attacks in addition to normal damage.
Swarms do not threaten creatures, and do not make attacks of opportunity with their swarm attack. However, they distract foes whose squares they occupy, as described below.
Swarms possess the distraction universal monster rule. Spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a DC 20 Will save.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
TGMaxMaxer wrote: Nauseated does only what it says it does. Limits the creature to a single move each round. At the very most, this is all a swarm would have to deal with.
Even if you have the swarm get the nauseated condition, they do not need to make an attack to cause damage/distraction.
Beastiary, Monster rules, Swarm Traits wrote: Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. A swarm's statistics block has “swarm” in the Melee entry, with no attack bonus given. The amount of damage a swarm deals is based on its Hit Dice, as shown below. **Table omitted**
A swarm's attacks are nonmagical, unless the swarm's description states otherwise. Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack's damage to 0, being incorporeal, or other special abilities usually give a creature immunity (or at least resistance) to damage from a swarm. Some swarms also have acid, blood drain, poison, or other special attacks in addition to normal damage.
Swarms do not threaten creatures, and do not make attacks of opportunity with their swarm attack. However, they distract foes whose squares they occupy, as described below.
Swarms possess the distraction universal monster rule. Spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a DC 20 Will save.
The wording for nauseated says, "Nauseated creatures are unable to attack." It doesn't matter that swarms don't require an action to attack the damage they deal is still called an attack and thus being nauseated prevents a swarm from dealing damage.
Until you can find the line that says swarm damage is not an attack, nauseated effects them fully by RAW.
And logically speaking if one nauseated rat can't attack then a thousand nauseated rats should be equally disabled.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
What TGMaxMaxer said. And if your players want to get more interpretative about it, it's pretty simple: swarms contain thousands of individual creatures. When you damage a swarm they still do full damage to you, because there are thousands more in place of the thousands you killed. On a condition like nauseated, sure if they want to get really "let's be real" about it, they nauseated thousands of the creatures, but there are thousands that succeeded and so they're still going to bite you.
And yes, you are always allowed to have creatures vomit on your players. I mean, that's at least 50% of proper GMing, in one form or another.
Lord Vukodlak wrote: JBNACK wrote: TGMaxMaxer wrote: Swarms do damage and inflict the distraction ability to any creature who shares a space with them.
They have to take no action to do this, just the fact that they are sharing a square counts.
Stinking cloud does not affect a swarm in any way, except that it may make it easier for them to eat your face since you might be nauseated yourself from the cloud, and slower to run.
Thank you for your response. May I ask where you found this answer? I can't seem to find it in the Core Rulebook. Its a "technically" kind of thing. Because swarms don't spend an action to attack they simply have to occupy the same space as a creature. They "technically" wouldn't be effected by being nauseated... however he's wrong.
The wording for nauseated says, "Nauseated creatures are unable to attack." It doesn't matter that swarms don't require an action to attack the condition prevents them from attacking and the swarm damage may be automatic but it still an attack.
automatic damage and attacking are different though. Standing in fire is automatic damage. The fire is not attacking u, u are just taking famage while standing in it. Replace fire with swarm and u get the gist.
To me attacking would mean using an action to do so and since swarms dont use an action, its just automatic...eh well the fire example comes to mind.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Duiker wrote: What TGMaxMaxer said. And if your players want to get more interpretative about it, it's pretty simple: swarms contain thousands of individual creatures. When you damage a swarm they still do full damage to you, because there are thousands more in place of the thousands you killed. On a condition like nauseated, sure if they want to get really "let's be real" about it, they nauseated thousands of the creatures, but there are thousands that succeeded and so they're still going to bite you.
And yes, you are always allowed to have creatures vomit on your players. I mean, that's at least 50% of proper GMing, in one form or another.
That's not how swarm saves work, would you make swarms immune to circle of death or cloudkill too? The swarm makes saves as a whole body. If the swarm fails a save against a debilitating effect(one that's capable of affecting an unlimited number of creatures) If the swarm fails its save against stinking cloud then most of the swarm is nauseated and the remaining unaffected members aren't enough to deal damage.
Redneckdevil wrote:
automatic damage and attacking are different though. Standing in fire is automatic damage. The fire is not attacking u, u are just taking famage while standing in it. Replace fire with swarm and u get the gist.
To me attacking would mean using an action to do so and since swarms dont use an action, its just automatic...eh well the fire example comes to mind.
So by your logic a nauseated creature can make Attacks of opportunity because those don't require an action?
Also swarm isn't dealing damage by touching you like fire would, its members are actively biting you. If being nauseated would prevent a giant spider from biting you it should also prevent a diminutive spider from biting you or a thousand diminutive spiders.
The damage a swarm deals is due to the hundreds or thousands of creatures attacking those in its space. If they fail a saving throw and become nauseated they should be just as effective as a singular large creature.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Swarms do "automatic damage" from a "Swarm Attack".
Nauseated:" ... Nauseated creatures are unable to attack ..."
So, the swarm can't attack -- regardless of the action type.
Circle of death and cloudkill actually kill them.
Nauseated means no attack and a single move.
Swarms do not make attacks, they do automatic damage to anything in the same square as them.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
TGMaxMaxer wrote: Circle of death and cloudkill actually kill them.
Nauseated means no attack and a single move.
Swarms do not make attacks, they do automatic damage to anything in the same square as them.
Swarms attack, it is repeatedly called an attack in the swarm attack entry, its listed in the melee entry nothing you have said or shown has done anything to dispute the fact that swarms attack.
Show me the line that says the swarms attack is not an attack? being automatic doesn't matter its still called an attack. Would you also exclude a swarm from taking damage if the subject it was damaging was protected by fire shield? or some other spell that damages attackers?
Lord Vukodlak wrote: Duiker wrote: What TGMaxMaxer said. And if your players want to get more interpretative about it, it's pretty simple: swarms contain thousands of individual creatures. When you damage a swarm they still do full damage to you, because there are thousands more in place of the thousands you killed. On a condition like nauseated, sure if they want to get really "let's be real" about it, they nauseated thousands of the creatures, but there are thousands that succeeded and so they're still going to bite you.
And yes, you are always allowed to have creatures vomit on your players. I mean, that's at least 50% of proper GMing, in one form or another.
That's not how swarm saves work, would you make swarms immune to circle of death or cloudkill too? The swarm makes saves as a whole body. If the swarm fails a save against a debilitating effect(one that's capable of affecting an unlimited number of creatures) If the swarm fails its save against stinking cloud then most of the swarm is nauseated and the remaining unaffected members aren't enough to deal damage.
Redneckdevil wrote:
automatic damage and attacking are different though. Standing in fire is automatic damage. The fire is not attacking u, u are just taking famage while standing in it. Replace fire with swarm and u get the gist.
To me attacking would mean using an action to do so and since swarms dont use an action, its just automatic...eh well the fire example comes to mind.
So by your logic a nauseated creature can make Attacks of opportunity because those don't require an action?
Also swarm isn't dealing damage by touching you like fire would, its members are actively biting you. If being nauseated would prevent a giant spider from biting you it should also prevent a diminutive spider from biting you or a thousand diminutive spiders.
The damage a swarm deals is due to the hundreds or thousands of creatures attacking those in its space. If they fail a saving throw and become nauseated they should be just as effective... Mmm no but not all swarms are daling bite dmg etc. Some are just doing dmg by swarming over you. Move thru a swarm of grasshoppera in real life. They aint biting or attacking ya, their shell just gets stuck to ur skin and the legs moving by ya....fom real life experience it aint fun.
BUT i am gonna change my stancethough after reading the swarm rules. Where it says it does automatic damage at, if u look where its under...its swarm ATTACK. Thats the name of the ability of it doing autkmatic damage so yeah i agree if its nauseated then its not doing any damage. It does gain a 50% chance to miss on attacks to it while its in the cloud though.
So yeah i change my response.
Dangit ninja'd
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Would seem to be the game equivalent to smoking out bees and such.
Throwing another point to the can't deal damage side. Unless the swarm is immune to the condition... undead scarab beetles maybe?
No damage, +2 circumstance bonus to the distract DC is how I recon I would rule it.
Thank you everyone. I guess the consensus is no damage. Thank you for your help!
I had this question in my game and the GM wasn't buying what was said here so I posted on another site: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/39613/is-swarm-attack-an-action#3962 1 for more information.
The response is saying that the Swarm Attack is part of the move so it happens automatically any time they end their movement. The argument is made that it is written as the damage happens "at the end of their move" meaning that damage is part of the move and not an attack that happens after a move.
I still feel like the description is saying that it is not a Standard Melee Attack then describing how it is different (no attack roll needed). Nowhere does it say that the Swarm Attack is not an action or that it happens as part of the move action. Normally when attacks happen with a move action they are noted as a full round action such as with a Charge.
It would be nice if it explicitly stated that a Swarm Attack happens as part of the move - it would be described as special swarm movement instead of "Swarm Attack" that does auto damages at the end of their movement.
Unclear by RAW. Damage is automatic, but it's also called a swarm attack. I think the GM is expected to use some discretion on this one.
I'd rule that it works, so long as the swarm is affected by the cloud.
Thanks, Blaphers. My thinking is just because the damage is automatic doesn't mean that it is caused just by the existence of the swarm. I just figured it meant that they don't need to roll an attack because the attack cannot be defended against. I also figured if it was not an action then It would happen a cratered entered their square not just when the swarm entered another creature's square.
But it does say it happens at the end of thief movement, not after the movement or where they end their turn. So it makes sense that it could be part of a move action.
The idea behind the automatic damage is that the swarms are trying to attack you, so if they are nauseated the GM should step in and use discretion to say no damage is occuring.
Cloudkill kills countless members of the swarm. Once a swarm loses the right number of members, it is destroyed, even if there are survivors.
Stinking Cloud weakens members of the swarm, but does not cause dispersion. As such, the un-affected members are still perfectly able to act (and keep in mind this wouldn't reduce their attacking ability—unless you assume literally every member of a swarm is attacking on every Swarm attack). This is because the members that are affected are still a part of the swarm. If being affected meant they left the swarm, then it would affect the whole.
Eliminating members of the swarm is damage. Anything else is meaningless. There are still thousands of creatures able to attack—having it deal zero damage is illogical.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
