So as the title says, I don't really like the death system in this game. Over the past few weeks, I have played about 11 adventures with my group of 5 heroes. A couple of times, I have came VERY close to death with a couple of them. In the first adventure or two, it really wouldn't have mattered: the other heroes could have looted their poor comrades body (good non-basic cards), and then shared the loot with their new, identical replacement! However, now that I have gotten I believe 2 skill ups, 2 power feats, and a card feat, any new characters would be gimp, to say the least (and this issue will only get worse the farther in I get). After all I can't imagine a fresh character standing much of a chance in the middle of adventure path 5, or 6.
If I had nothing else to do with my free time, I COULD play this new character solo. This does not appeal to me, it would be a large investment in time, and it would only get worse as I progress farther and farther in the adventure path.
I could also have the other 4 characters go and run the new replacement through all the old adventures. However, they would crush older, weaker villains, monsters, barriers, etc, with little problem with all the bonuses they have gotten, and possibly pick up even more good cards along the way (though honestly, I've been very luck, and other than a couple of the new spells from set 2, and a couple of one or two blessings, I've gotten almost every card I could ask for). So this would feel even worse I feel, and I would be buffing everyone in the party's decks to ridiculous points. Additionally, this would take even more time, because it would be a larger set up.
So I've been thinking, what WOULD make a good death penalty? I've had a few ideas.
A: Discard a card from the blessing deck when a character dies, plus one extra card for each card the character should have drawn but couldn't.
B: Penalize all the other characters rolls to acquire boons, because who cares about getting treasure when their dear friend and adventuring companion is slain? (I was thinking maybe -2 would be noticeable but not crippling)
C: Penalize that character on rolls for the next scenario, kind of like the negative level from the RPG from being resurrected between adventures. I realize this puts that character at an extended disadvantage, but for solo play, it's not like I'm picking on a particular person. That suggestion probably wouldn't work as well in group play, unless the player is cool with it.
D: Banish one card from the characters deck for each card they should have been able to draw but didn't. This one could be pretty harsh, but it's still not a total reset. Also, basic cards would have to be the LAST card to be banished, otherwise this punishment would probably be too gentle to even be noticed.
Side question, related to idea A: If a character dies, do they still get a turn? Does the blessing deck get advanced, everyone go "He's dead, Jim", and then then the blessing deck get advanced again?
Open to ideas and feedback, let's find a way to make it work! Maybe if enough people chip in, we can get something that becomes popular enough to get mentioned in the rulebook as an alternative means of dealing with death... (A guy can dream, right?)
If you can't stand the thought of a character dying, why not just adjust your play style so there is no risk of this happening? Since you can't take more damage than the number of cards in your hand, just make sure you always keep at least this many cards in your deck. Since there is no penalty for failing to complete a scenario, you are only ever at risk of death if you choose to be.
Personally, I feel that the risk of character death is essential to make the game fun. Without the risk of death, it's just a glorified shopping trip.
I like a risk of death as well, I just want the penalty to be different. If I had to chose between a character risking death, or risking to fail the scenario, I would probably risk death (unless the character had almost no chance to beat the villain anyway, I wouldn't be suicidal about it. However, in a group with Harsk and Lem providing support, most of my guys can pass a combat check with an empty hand, with a bit of luck).
Also, as we go along I expect to see at least a few more monsters that have additional penalties for failing to defeat them, like discarding a card or two from the top of your deck. Can you imagine how bad it would be to roll all 1's against a monster like that, even when you thought you could squeak by even if your hand got wiped? (Maybe there won't be monsters like that, it would make a surprise death much more possible, and would probably rapidly become many players most hated card, but it does add tension and challenge).
It's also a flavor thing. As someone who has been playing table top RPGs for 17 years (on and off), I feel like once the characters have gained a couple skill points and a power feat and a card feat, they have reached the point where they are at a "level" where they would muster their money, and maybe owe the church a favor, and get their companion resurrected. The game devs made it clear that later cards will be able to revive the dead, just like the table top RPG that this game is (loosely) based on. 3 or 4 adventures in, it wouldn't have been a big deal, they would barely be behind, and it's typical for a very "low level" character to have to be replaced, because resurrection is expensive, but by the middle of adventure path 2, I'm not feeling it so much...
By the way, idea E: Kill the character per the guidance in the rulebook. Each adventure that the new, basic character goes on, he gets to pick one older adventure that grants a skill feat, power feat, or card feat, and essentially "complete" it, in terms of upgrades acquired. This is in addition to the reward for the current adventurer the character has just played. Once the character has acquired the same amount of skills, powers, and card feats as the rest of the party, they are treated like normal.
This is probably the harshest one I have suggested, but over time at least the character won't be gimped. Perhaps if the scenario number was at least 3 higher than any other scenario "completed", they could gain 2 feats, instead of one. I can't imagine how inferior a brand new character will be by the middle of the 4th adventure path, but at least they would catch up somewhat quickly until the gap has shrunk.
Variant on option B, above: make the penalty to acquire boons last for a couple game sessions, to represent the characters having expended a LOT of resources to get their buddy brought back. I know this one would never fly in the official rules, because if the cards can't have a memory for a few minutes, tracking something like that is completely out of the picture! But for solo play, or a group that's comfortable with it...
First, lets deal with the query...
Markon wrote: Side question, related to idea A: If a character dies, do they still get a turn? Does the blessing deck get advanced, everyone go "He's dead, Jim", and then then the blessing deck get advanced again? My understanding is that the dead character has no turn, so the blessings deck does not move on their turn. The rulebook says: "You cannot take turns, play cards, move, or do anything else for the rest of this scenario."
No turn = no blessings turned over.
Then to the death...
I personally really LIKE the death penalty in PACG. It really makes the players care about their characters and tread the fine line between heroic feats and self-preservation. Having said that, here's my suggested alternative idea for how to deal with death:
- you can start a new character from scratch to replace a dead one
- they have to build their deck using the standard deck-building rules (ie. early on just a choice of basic cards)
- they then get all the rewards for the scenarios completed to date (boons and tick boxes, but not the loot)
- they need to build a legal deck from their starter cards + rewards and banish the spares
- they then join the party and can trade further with the rest of the characters before the next scenario
This would give you a character with ticked boxes, some non-basic boons (some of the rewards are Armor, Weapons, Spells, etc) but a weaker deck than they would have if you had played through the whole AP to date.
This keeps a real penalty for dying but saves you the IRL time of playing through the AP multiple times with multiple characters.
What do you think?
I would further suggest that if, say, Valeros dies then you cannot bring a new Valeros in to the game (so if EVERYONE dies then you lose the AP since there are no more characters to bring in), but that's up to what works for you.
I've left the effect of death the same, but changed the rules for it slightly to bring it more in line (I think) with the RPG.
My rule wrote:
If a character would attempt to draw from an empty character deck, that character is knocked unconscious (instead of dead). That character draws as many cards as possible then sets their hand aside. An unconscious character can still take damage, but may not move, be moved, or play any cards or powers; powers that help other characters may not be used.
During an unconscious character's turn, the blessings deck is advanced normally then immediately skips to the Refresh step. If that character is still unable to draw to their full hand size, they discard a card from their hand, if able. If at this point, there are no cards left in hand, the character is considered dead, and normal rules apply.
So basically what I've added is a group penalty (the blessing deck still advances) and a chance for other characters to heal the character back to health (or struggle to keep them from death).
I do realize that with more players, the number of turns is also decreased, so you are less likely to bleed out. Maybe the fact that the timer still counts you makes up for this? I don't know; it's only come up in a single 3-character game (the game in which I created this rule), and it was the final 3 turns (character 1 down, character 2 down, character 3 wins it).
To be even more in line with the RPG, you could add a Fortitude check to prevent the discard, or maybe the number of cards you discard is based on the result of this check ("combat" damage vs "death"). This could add an interesting element to a group game... spend resources to keep a character alive, or save them for the mission.
H4ppy, I like your idea, it's pretty similar to my idea E, but more gentle, I could see it working well for a lot of people that want something fairly simple to implement that still has some sting.
Flat, I think you're idea works OK at "lower levels", but once resurrection magic comes into play, it would kinda make it pointless (seeing as I feel like a cure is the best resurrect right now with that variation), but maybe it will be more compatible than I'm anticipating, won't know for sure until we see the spells (items?).
Option (A) is slightly more harsh than the actual effects of Restoration, depending on which character you restore; a resurrected Ezren will spend the rest of the scenario hoping to not die again.
Try to survive until AP 4. And then don't let the cleric with Restoration be the character to die :)
Option (F): First Aid. The character is 'almost dead' and requires first aid before his/her next turn every round of play. This means that another character needs to be in that location and give up the explore phase. If you want healing to also be possible, then the almost dead character should draw a blessing every round but otherwise not be able to do anything but draw until he/she gets a full hand.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules
|
