I ran into a great comment over in another thread. While I agree that high-level does need some clean-up...DQ's comment presented a way we might be able to do that, at least in part.
"The System Doesn't Work"
No.I have ran a level 14-19 game over the course of a couple years. I also ran a mythic playtest one-shot with 20th level characters. The system worked just fine for me. The hardest part wasn't game balance, it was simply encounter design, because NPCs had a lot of spells (and this is before stuff like the NPC Codex came out). I also found it hard as GM (but not impossible or game-destroying) to keep track of monsters' abilities when they had gazillions. I think often high CR monsters are designed by tacking on more and more abilities rather than making them really, frighteningly good at a few things, and that is a flaw in the game's creature design. It is especially problematic because while a monster may have 20 options for what he can do with his turn, he still only gets one turn per round (mythic rules where there's ways to give big bads an extra turn per round really helps).
It's not imbalanced, at least in my experience. It's just a lot of work.
...it's a good point. A few more powerful abilities are easier to track than a number of smaller, but effective ones. What I would like to do is brainstorm ideas, or share ideas, for abilities for high-level creatures that are in that category of 'very, very effective' while still being fun...and are a little easier on the DM.
The goal here is to explore this and potentially build a resource for players and DMs alike.
Players have worked hard to get to high levels, after all, and it's fun to be able to do these things. If by sharing ideas we can make this happen a little easier...then why not?
Dot. Will contribute if I can think of anything.
Also, thank you for thinking of this! I'm finishing up a campaign where my players are effectively epic, and I've run out of ideas for encounters that don't require massive amounts of preparation and memorization.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what ideas get shared. One of my own, from the top of my head...and well. Forgive the cheesy name...
Spell Absorber: A creature with this ability possess a strong, innate core of magic that powers its form. This core lends them high defenses. A side effect is that sustaining these defenses takes a lot of energy and its core is always very, very hungry.
That is, the creature's defenses may be overcome by overloading it. In game terms, the creature absorbs up to x level of spells. Once x number are absorbed in this fashion, the creature's defenses begin to drop.
Forcing overload isn't safe, though. As characters work to overload the creature, they're interacting with a highly magic being. Casting a spell into the creature brings down its defenses, sure...but it also causes a Trigger Effect.
...you see where this is going. The number of spell levels can be adjusted, as can the type of defenses it has at the beginning, as well as how they drop. This is effectively a 'burn' effect we can add additional effects to...which basically just improves your creature's action economy (I call these 'Trigger Effects' and use them just for expanding action economy).
...this has room for refinement and expanding. I may not have gotten all of the concepts across, but it's a bit late...and I apologize.
A big cheer to you for doing right by your players, though. :)
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Ashiel made a post about a possible version of Hecate, Goddess of Magic or at least what mortals on Earth would regard as a Goddess.
Trivia Form (Su): As a move action Hecate can create two copies of herself: Hecate of the Past and Hecate of the Future. These copies are identical to Hecate except that they lack this ability and have two negative levels (these negative levels cannot be removed in any way). While the copies exist Hecate gains two negative levels which cannot be removed until the copies are destroyed or she dismisses them (as a free action). Hecate and her copies all share the same mind. Mind-affecting effects that affect one affects the others, though this state grants a +6 bonus on Will saving throws against mind-affecting effects. At any time (even when it is not her turn) Hecate can choose one of her copies to become the real Hecate (instead of a copy) and her original body to be treated as a copy instead (allowing her to dismiss it as desired). Though this ability is a supernatural one, the copies are not (nor is the option to allow a copy to become the real Hecate) and thus they continue to exist where supernatural abilities do not function (such as in an antimagic field).
Hounds of Hecate (Su): Once per round as a free action, Hecate can summon a pack of hounds to her aid as if by a summon monster spell except that the range is long (400 ft. +40 ft. / level) and she may summon as many as she likes as long as their combined experience value is CR 16 or less (for example, Hecate could summon eight CR 9 Nessian Hell Hounds or one CR 16 26 HD huge nessian hell hound). The type of hounds that Hecate can summon with this ability are Hell Hounds, dogs, riding dogs, wolves, dire wolves, worgs, and winter wolves (and advanced versions of any of these). She typically favors calling two CR 14 22 HD nessian hell hounds each round.
Paired Torches (Su): Hecate has two torches that hover around her. One a white flame casting a powerful light radius and another a black flame that fills an area with darkness. The light torch functions as if under the effects of a 9th level continual flame spell while the darkness torch functions as if under the effects of a 9th level deeper darkness spell. Once each round as a free action Hecate can decide which of the two torches is dominant (light or dark). In either case Hecate can see in the radius of these torches as if under the effects of true seeing. Hecate may dismiss or recall these torches as a free action (even if the torches have been destroyed).
Robe of Spells (Su): Hecate is empowered by her magic in ways that others cannot fully comprehend. Hecate gains a circumstance bonus to all attacks, saves, and checks equal to the highest level spell she can cast (typically a +9 bonus, included in her statblock). If Hecate would fail a saving throw she may expend a spell or unused spell slot to re-roll the saving throw with a bonus equal to the level of the expended spell or spell slot.
Limitless Magic (Ex): Hecate can any 1st through 6th level spell she has prepared at-will as a spell-like ability, and any 7th-9th level spell she has prepared 3/day as a spell-like ability. Hecate may apply the benefits of feats that modify spell-like abilities (such as Quicken Spell-like Ability) to new spell-like abilities each day.
Now, each of these abilities on one creature would be very powerful, but the idea behind each ability might work on some creatures.
For instance, some sort of unique Lich might have a form of Limitless Magic, in that he has at-will SLA of the 1st - 3rd level spells he has prepared. So each day, he could change his SLA by preparing different spells. However, the SLAs are unique in that they use the minimum casting stat for their DCs. While the Lich might have a 40 Int (for whatever reason) and cast, from his prepared spells, a DC 28 Fireball, the Fireball from his Limitless Magic SLA is only DC 14.
A version of the Hounds of Hecate might be appropriate for a unique outsider, for example. It would be weaker (Swift action, instead of free action) and have a lower hit-die limit, but it could work.
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As for making a creature frighteningly good at what it does, instead of tacking on all kinds of abilities... that's hard to do without having a monster in mind.
You need to know what it is you want the creature to be good at, before coming up with abilities for it. A good example of a creature that is frighteningly good at doing it's job (mainly, killing PCs) is the demilich. Unless the party knows it's coming, a demilich can annihilate even high-level parties.
However, if you wanted to come up with some good, general, abilities for different categories of monsters, that's not a bad idea.
For instance, I'm a big fan of the Hulk!Rage scenario, and it would work greatly on many different melee monsters. One could tie a few spells together to create an Unstoppable Rage ability, spell such as Enlarge Person, Blood Rage and Infernal Healing.
The creature will calm down after it fails to recognize a threat to itself. The time it takes to calm down is 1 minute for every increment of morale bonus to strength the creature has attained. For each minute that passes without a threat, the creature loses an increment of it's morale bonus to strength, the AC penalty and Fast Healing.
Toss an ability like that on any melee monster (Giants, Rhinos, Hydras etc) and watch it scare the crap out of the party. The more they hurt it, the harder it is to kill. Yet, if they don't kill it, it will kill them. They need to be able to put it down as fast as possible, or it's going to get messy.
Dot
Dotting. With the adidition of several really high-CR creatures in the beastiary 4, this needs to be considered.
I actually enjoy the fact that high CR creatures have tons of abilities. It's kind of important if you want them to actually be a challenge because they need to be able to change their tactics up round to round.
Using one of my favorite monsters the Pit Fiend as an example, he has a multitude of terrible options at his disposal ranging from creating up to 60 HD of other devils from lemures to sucking your soul into a soul gem at will (without even needing a gem to do it) to teleporting into melee range with your spellcaster to flying around and bombing enemies with mass save or die and fireballs, to vital striking an enemy for 12d6+13 damage and forcing saves vs devil chills and its poison when moving around.
4th Edition had the issue of dumbing all the monsters down so they have just a few (or less) abilities despite their level and in most cases it's the same as just fighting any ol' other thing, and if you know how to fight that one thing ahead of time you can just effortlessly counter its shtick.
But DeathQuaker is right. Part of running a high level encounter is having a cursory understanding of the options that enemies have at their disposal and getting a decent idea as to what their tactics will be. I discuss this in some detail in this blogpost about high level encounters.
Also, thanks Tels for sharing the Hecate stuff. Makes me feel proud. ^-^
However, if you wanted to come up with some good, general, abilities for different categories of monsters, that's not a bad idea.
One approach to this might be to craft abilities according to the needs of the DM. For example, we could identify a need such as: Interfere with Full Attacks. Then, provide a number of ability ideas. These abilities could then be rethemed to the creature and encounter.
For example:
Delicious Minions: This hellish creature may summon a series of soul spheres. These spheres are crafted from the wailing and tortured souls of the damned. While the spheres appear to have no traditional, direct attack, coming into contact with them forces a save versus level drain.
The spheres have a limited movement, and may be able to hover or fly. Like a moth to flame, these cold, tormented beings are attracted to sources of biological warmth.
Translation: the DM now has a tool which can creatively be used to interfere with full attacks or caster concentration at strategic points. Its theme can be revamped to say, whirling chaos spheres.
There should be a way for PCs to overcome them. It's a flexible and powerful mechanic that we can use to make a challenge more interesting.
But DeathQuaker is right. Part of running a high level encounter is having a cursory understanding of the options that enemies have at their disposal and getting a decent idea as to what their tactics will be. I discuss this in some detail in this blogpost about high level encounters.Also, thanks Tels for sharing the Hecate stuff. Makes me feel proud. ^-^
Ashiel, I would like to thank you for linking to this. I'm planning to start GM-ing this winter, and these blogposts seem filled with great encoutner management advice. Again, big thanks.
Here's a secret I love sharing.
When I'm designing a creature I think about how I want the battle to go. I think of fighting it as a PC. When I wrote up the abilities for Hecate, I thought about what it would require for her to be a CR 25 creature and what sort of encounter that would have to be, and made abilities that worked for her according to her theme (the trivia form, hounds, torches, and her magic stuff are all directly drawn from her lore).
I wanted to see players doing things like spamming holy word / dismissal / banishment to crowd-control the masses of hellhounds erupting from the ground, while she took action economy back into her own hands using her trivia form, while also giving her an out to escape unless the party can nail her with anti-travel effects (IE - dimensional anchor or similar).
This is a CR 25 creature, so I'm expecting parties do be doing things like gating super powerful near godlike creatures as their minions (things like clerics calling solars and wizards/sorcerers calling pit fiends and balors into the mix), on top of the quickened summoned monster spamming.
The martials are going to be doing things like flying around the battlefield in their mithral celestial pate mail under the effects of death ward and freedom of movement, possibly employing some teleportation abilities via magic items to stay on top of her and keep attacking her relentlessly with things like life drinkers or weapons crafted to slay her (things like bane weapons with her name on them, etc).
Meanwhile the party is going to be dropping massive AoE CC spells, dispelling and countering spells, junk is going to be bouncing all over the place. The encounter may change locations several times of the course of the battle (because more than likely the entire party AND Hecate can literally up and leave the field and go anywhere, so phase one of the fight may take place in her domain with her outsider minions, another phase taking place on the astral plane, and a third phase where she fights the party in the afterlife where she calls forth minions from the party's previous encounters).
Ashiel, I would like to thank you for linking to this. I'm planning to start GM-ing this winter, and these blogposts seem filled with great encoutner management advice. Again, big thanks.
But DeathQuaker is right. Part of running a high level encounter is having a cursory understanding of the options that enemies have at their disposal and getting a decent idea as to what their tactics will be. I discuss this in some detail in this blogpost about high level encounters.Also, thanks Tels for sharing the Hecate stuff. Makes me feel proud. ^-^
No, thank you, good sir. /(^___^)>|=
What you describe in those posts is EXACTLY what I want to obtain in encounters; dynamic play, chances for the characters to interact with their opponents, a lot of strategic elements.
I've had one GM that was decent at this, and I currently have on GM that's good with this, but it does seem to be rather difficult to do.
I especially like the post about over-preparation. That seems to be one of the greatest sources of GM frustration.
I've GM-d a bit of the "Dungeon World" game and they seem to encourage some of the pratices you reccomend. I quite like dungeon world for it's simplicity and the good stuff they reccomend for players and GMs, but it doesnt have nearly the complexity of pathfinder.
To the OP: sorry for going off subject.
I actually enjoy the fact that high CR creatures have tons of abilities. It's kind of important if you want them to actually be a challenge because they need to be able to change their tactics up round to round.
Using one of my favorite monsters the Pit Fiend as an example, he has a multitude of terrible options at his disposal ranging from creating up to 60 HD of other devils from lemures to sucking your soul into a soul gem at will (without even needing a gem to do it) to teleporting into melee range with your spellcaster to flying around and bombing enemies with mass save or die and fireballs, to vital striking an enemy for 12d6+13 damage and forcing saves vs devil chills and its poison when moving around.
4th Edition had the issue of dumbing all the monsters down so they have just a few (or less) abilities despite their level and in most cases it's the same as just fighting any ol' other thing, and if you know how to fight that one thing ahead of time you can just effortlessly counter its shtick.
But DeathQuaker is right. Part of running a high level encounter is having a cursory understanding of the options that enemies have at their disposal and getting a decent idea as to what their tactics will be. I discuss this in some detail in this blogpost about high level encounters.
Also, thanks Tels for sharing the Hecate stuff. Makes me feel proud. ^-^
The Pit Fiend is a great example of a BBEG monster. He's capable of doing almost anything, from performing secret Arcane rituals, to locking down melee creatures if he chooses. He's a full spectrum threat to the party, and immensely difficult to combat as he's not just powerful, but smart. But none of his abilities feel like they were just tacked on after he was built.
Take a look at the Rune Giant for a second. Notice he's only using a masterwork weapon, but has a pretty good melee attack routine. Then notice he has some odd spell-like abilities (with low DCs), and then his piddly little Spark Shower ability. These are all rather weak effects that, to me, feel tacked on instead of incorporated from the ground up. The earliest a party would face this guy, is around level 14, and at that point, most people will have a 10+ Will save, and basically have a 50% chance of saving against his spells. A single Magic Circle vs Evil almost all of his spell-like abilities, and, at this point, Resist Energy is blocking 30 points of whatever damage is selected, which would all but neuter Spark Showers.
The Rune Giant should have had unique melee capabilities. I mean, Flavor wise, they were basically giants that were genetically engineered by the Thassilonian Runelords. Against other giants, this guy may be a threat, but against a party of 14th level characters? He's almost a bump in the road. While he's got a decent attack routine, it's not that much better than a well built 14th level Rogue's woukd be. Wizards would wreck this guy, especially an Admixture Wizard with Dazing Spell on a Fireball. Hell, certain Bard archetypes (Sound Striker and Thundercaller) would have a field day with this guy.
I would have liked to see something along the line of SR on this guy, with an ability to absorb and then re-direct spells cast at him. However, his SR wouldn't work against the school of magic that created him. Or something to that effect.
Maybe the different Runes on his body could be activated for different buffs. A Rune of Speed, a Rune of Strength, a Rune of Defense etc. The Rune giant could maintain a single Rune with little problem, but when he activates multiple Runes, he has to make a Concentration check at the end of his turn with a DC that gets harder for ever Rune activated. Failure means Runes start turning off in the order they were activated, and for every 5 points of failure, another rune is deactivated.