Speak with the Dead, Augury, Commune, and other such ways to gather info

[FanaticRat]

How do other GMs feel when players use spells like speak with the dead or Commune or interrogation or whatever? How do you handle it?

For some backstory, last night I was playing Halls of Dwarven Lore with my bones oracle, and I had just gotten the revelation Voice of the Grave to allow me to speak with dead bodies. I was excited to try it out, but I felt bad because it immediately became obvious that I had put the GM on the spot in trying to do so--the second time I tried it against another corpse we found the GM basically said "this guy wouldn't know anything useful for you" when I asked if the body had a jaw intact. I know that scenarios don't include information on this sorta thing like...ever, so I'm unsure if it's a jerk move or not.

[Netopalis]

It depends on your GM. I'd have a grand time with somebody casting Speak with Dead at my table. Improvisation is fun. Other GMs might be uncomfortable with it.

[Katie Sommer]

I would tell the GM ahead of time that you have these types of abilities so they aren't put "on the spot" and at least have some time to think about it.

Personally I think it's a jerk move on the GM's part not to let you use your abilities (and if the corpse knows nothing useful, he should let you play it out anyway and you just get no useful info...). Yes, sometimes it breaks the mod, sometimes you get nothing useful out of it, and sometimes it lets the GM bring out backstory from the scenario you wouldn't know otherwise. Yes, it makes the GM have to think a little, but those abilities exist and are legal, so you should be able to use them.

Edited to add: I've had groups use these types of abilities (and arcane eye) and it's just a matter of trying to make sure they get the info the spell should get them, but, if possible, leaving a bit of mystery. I don't mind it, it's the type of thing an experienced group of adventurer's SHOULD be doing.

[FanaticRat]

I don't think the GM was being a jerk when he told me that. I think he just wanted to move things along and not waste time, especially since it was around 1:00 A.M.

[Castilliano]

Katie Sommer wrote:

I would tell the GM ahead of time that you have these types of abilities so they aren't put "on the spot" and at least have some time to think about it.

Personally I think it's a jerk move on the GM's part not to let you use your abilities (and if the corpse knows nothing useful, he should let you play it out anyway and you just get no useful info...). Yes, sometimes it breaks the mod, sometimes you get nothing useful out of it, and sometimes it lets the GM bring out backstory from the scenario you wouldn't know otherwise. Yes, it makes the GM have to think a little, but those abilities exist and are legal, so you should be able to use them.

Edited to add: I've had groups use these types of abilities (and arcane eye) and it's just a matter of trying to make sure they get the info the spell should get them, but, if possible, leaving a bit of mystery. I don't mind it, it's the type of thing an experienced group of adventurer's SHOULD be doing.

This.

Especially in PFS.
Except...
We get easy leads. "Oh, look the Aspis left another note on a lost comrade. Gosh, they really are helpful."
Heck, they should be decapitating all their lost fellows and burning the corpses. But, no, somehow they forget about magic (and basic reading skills) despite having lots of magic-using leaders.
Most of the scenarios don't account for magic info/spying/scrying, even at higher levels where they should (but maybe don't have room for).
So magic info-gathering ends up redundant, not 'cool' or vital, and sadly, a lot of the mods where the point is to gain info can be broken should a PC use magic to gain that info.
This puts the GM in a tough bind, and possibly strips the scenario of any entertainment.
I can recall one high-level scenario where one info spell could've bypassed EVERY encounter except the somewhat random one while traveling (which could've been bypassed by one more spell).
Lame, but I understand somewhat natural when addressing the random bag of PCs you get in organized play.

Anyway, like powergaming for combat, players should examine how much firepower they want to bring into info-gathering.

Cheers.

[John Compton]

Castilliano wrote:

This.
Especially in PFS.
Except...
We get easy leads. "Oh, look the Aspis left another note on a lost comrade. Gosh, they really are helpful."
Heck, they should be decapitating all their lost fellows and burning the corpses. But, no, somehow they forget about magic (and basic reading skills) despite having lots of magic-using leaders.
Most of the scenarios don't account for magic info/spying/scrying, even at higher levels where they should (but maybe don't have room for).
So magic info-gathering ends up redundant, not 'cool' or vital, and sadly, a lot of the mods where the point is to gain info can be broken should a PC use magic to gain that info.

As I believe I may have said once before, I would love to assign/write a scenario or two in which clever roleplay/creative skill use/skillful divination are as essential to "beating" a scenario as a combat; that is to say failing the non-combat challenge would lead to scenario failure as readily as failing a combat challenge. That said, I also love being able to look out the window and not see a waving mass of torches and pitchforks.

A developer can dream, though.

[RainyDayNinja]

I suppose it's hard to write a scenario that hinges on divination magic, since you can't know if a party will have that or not. But what if they have access to a large city with spellcasting services?

*Plops dead body on a pew*
"Alright, which one of you priests has a speak with dead spell prepared? This is the fourth temple we've been to tonight, and we're in kind of a hurry to interrogate this guy!"

[nosig]

Put Detect Thoughts on the list of spells that could give the PCs information, but are very dependant on the judge.

So many stories with this one - both good and bad.
And you know what? the good ones aren't always the ones where you learn things with the spell - sometimes it just fails to turn anything up. I've even had one judge who passed us "mis-information", because the BBE knew we'd defeat the mooks and ask them questions, so he give them info to lead us into another trap.

The bad ones will run you in circles - trying to "RP", and often doing it poorly. Net result - one player spends 10-20 minutes of game time interacting with the Judge while the other players are waiting, and the PCs learn nothing (except maybe to not try that again!). I would be very happy if the Judge just said up front - "you'll spend 20 minutes with this and learn nothing, as he knows nothing useful to you."

[BigNorseWolf]

Have the badguys read the evil overlord list. Minions don't know anything that they absolutely don't need to know.

[Mistwalker]

John Compton wrote:

As I believe I may have said once before, I would love to assign/write a scenario or two in which clever roleplay/creative skill use/skillful divination are as essential to "beating" a scenario as a combat; that is to say failing the non-combat challenge would lead to scenario failure as readily as failing a combat challenge. That said, I also love being able to look out the window and not see a waving mass of torches and pitchforks.

A developer can dream, though.

Can we get you to turn your dream into reality? Those sound like they could be a lot of fun...maybe make it a three scenario mini story arc?

And, as a developer, aren't you sued to seeing those torches and pitchforks? :)

[Katie Sommer]

John Compton wrote:

As I believe I may have said once before, I would love to assign/write a scenario or two in which clever roleplay/creative skill use/skillful divination are as essential to "beating" a scenario as a combat; that is to say failing the non-combat challenge would lead to scenario failure as readily as failing a combat challenge. That said, I also love being able to look out the window and not see a waving mass of torches and pitchforks.

A developer can dream, though.

I would say

scenario name:

The Disappeared

did this and did it fairly well. Sure it's low level, but I've seen parties fail the main mission because of a failed stealth roll (and also because of poor play, like, not using certain things provided to them to help). Which was needed because of many other failed skill checks...

I can also say this is one of my favorite scenarios, ever.

[Netopalis]

John Compton wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

This.
Especially in PFS.
Except...
We get easy leads. "Oh, look the Aspis left another note on a lost comrade. Gosh, they really are helpful."
Heck, they should be decapitating all their lost fellows and burning the corpses. But, no, somehow they forget about magic (and basic reading skills) despite having lots of magic-using leaders.
Most of the scenarios don't account for magic info/spying/scrying, even at higher levels where they should (but maybe don't have room for).
So magic info-gathering ends up redundant, not 'cool' or vital, and sadly, a lot of the mods where the point is to gain info can be broken should a PC use magic to gain that info.

As I believe I may have said once before, I would love to assign/write a scenario or two in which clever roleplay/creative skill use/skillful divination are as essential to "beating" a scenario as a combat; that is to say failing the non-combat challenge would lead to scenario failure as readily as failing a combat challenge. That said, I also love being able to look out the window and not see a waving mass of torches and pitchforks.

A developer can dream, though.

Please consider writing this. The Blakros Matrimony has been one of the most well-received scenarios ever, and it is almost entirely talking. Roleplay is what keeps characters coming back to Society over other forms of RPG.

[wakedown]

Katie Sommer wrote:

I would say ** spoiler omitted ** did this and did it fairly well. Sure it's low level, but I've seen parties fail the main mission...

Hey now, our game was a resounding success, sure we failed to get a prestige point, but I nearly teared up from laughter a half dozen times!

And agreed, that's a brilliant scenario - I'd love to see a couple like those each season.

John Compton wrote:

A developer can dream, though.

Give into your deepest desires - after all, now you can cite a forum thread where you were encouraged to do so!