|
| 23 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So does having fire resistance like being a Tieflings helps against environmental Heat?
I'm asking cos there are more Tieflings characters appearing in my local PFS and I'm unsure how does them having Fire resistance helps against heat.
Reading the rules on environmental heat, there does not seems to be any reference to fire damage, unless in extreme heat. All non-lethal damage seems to be untyped.
My current conclusion on the rules is: "Having Fire resistance is like wrapping aluminum foil around a potato. The potato does not gets burn if exposed to a naked flame. But if you place the wrapped potato into an oven and heat it... you still get a baked potato in the end."
Is this the right view of this situation?
From a RAW standpoint? Yes, that seems to be the case.
However, it seems goofy from a RAI point of view. Like reading the Cold section, it never even deals cold damage. And in heat it's only mentioned as fire damage the once. Does that seem right to you?
I'd point out the spell Resist Energy mentions that stops damage but not side affects. So if a character can resist fire, sure they'd not take damage... but like you said that doesn't mean they wouldn't take other effects like the Fatigue mentioned for incurring heat stroke. So if a PC has such abilities, sure I'd let them not take damage... but they'd still have to save for other things.
Mind you that's just my take on it. The RAW is that you're correct.
Under this interpretation, you get weird effects like Demons and fire elementals dying of heat-stroke...
So does having fire resistance like being a Tieflings helps against environmental Heat?
I'm asking cos there are more Tieflings characters appearing in my local PFS and I'm unsure how does them having Fire resistance helps against heat.Reading the rules on environmental heat, there does not seems to be any reference to fire damage, unless in extreme heat. All non-lethal damage seems to be untyped.
My current conclusion on the rules is: "Having Fire resistance is like wrapping aluminum foil around a potato. The potato does not gets burn if exposed to a naked flame. But if you place the wrapped potato into an oven and heat it... you still get a baked potato in the end."
Is this the right view of this situation?
Well, 3.5 did allow fire resistance (Sandstorm and Frostburn books go in depth about this and protections).
But Pathfinder never added those type of sourcebooks so not as far as yet.
Yes, it works. No source besides common sense.
Edit: Actually, there might be some adventure citations for rules on this. PF #22 perhaps, or PFS Scenario #3X - Citadel of Flame.
I can't sight an official source, but I believe the ruling is that fire resistance applies to damage from heat or fire, and cold reistance applies to both cold temperatures and other cold. This means the 1d4 nonlethal damage is reduced by the reistance and if completely negated the other effects of heat do not apply to the creature.
Logically, how would it make sense if a creature can happily let the fire burn it up to 5 points of damage without worry, but heat that causes less damage than that will tire or exhaust it? It doesn't make a lick of sense to do that.
I can't sight an official source, but I believe the ruling is that fire resistance applies to damage from heat or fire, and cold reistance applies to both cold temperatures and other cold. This means the 1d4 nonlethal damage is reduced by the reistance and if completely negated the other effects of heat do not apply to the creature.
Logically, how would it make sense if a creature can happily let the fire burn it up to 5 points of damage without worry, but heat that causes less damage than that will tire or exhaust it? It doesn't make a lick of sense to do that.
It starts making even less sense if you bring Elementals into the mix. An entity whose natural plane of existence is a never ending inferno with only a few outposts of "normal" temperatures (such as the City of Brass) is still susceptible to heat stroke? Please.
|
|
Yes, it works. No source besides common sense.
Edit: Actually, there might be some adventure citations for rules on this. PF #22 perhaps, or PFS Scenario #3X - Citadel of Flame.
I running games for PFS, hence me asking for a proper ruling on this.
Btw, Citadel of Flame, is where I'm facing problems with heat and fire resistance.
If you are looking for a PFS answer, your RAW answer is what you've got. There hasn't been any errata/FAQ regarding the issue (even if it makes sense they should be able to cope 'better' due to the ability).
You've got a baked potato on your hands.
Btw, Citadel of Flame, is where I'm facing problems with heat and fire resistance.
Simple answer for you: Citadel is brutal enough without making this not work. Just don't do it - your players will hate you.
Btw, Citadel of Flame, is where I'm facing problems with heat and fire resistance.Simple answer for you: Citadel is brutal enough without making this not work. Just don't do it - your players will hate you.
If it were a matter of being 'nice' to the players I imagine the OP wouldn't even be here. Unfortunately it's a PFS game and they are probably looking to avoid table 'variance' which makes the 'simple answer' less so :(
What sort of damage would fire do if it were not hot? Again, another question not specifically covered word-for-word in the rules because it doesn't need to be. It's common sense.
What sort of damage would fire do if it were not hot? Again, another question not specifically covered word-for-word in the rules because it doesn't need to be. It's common sense.
Prolonged exposure is different from 'flash'/fire energy damage. DR specifically works against the last.
Common sense, isn't so 'common' in RAW situations.
|
Allow Fire Resistance if they have it.
Keep in mind that if Fire Resistance does not work for the PCs, it does not work for the humanoid NPCs in the place as well. This would be a bit problematic.
As a PFS GM, don't feel that you need to get every single rule correct every single time. Make a common sense call and run with it.
|
|
Btw, Citadel of Flame, is where I'm facing problems with heat and fire resistance.Simple answer for you: Citadel is brutal enough without making this not work. Just don't do it - your players will hate you.
You see... that is the problem.
I got a Tiefling player in the party. If his fire resistance makes him immune to all the heat environment, the other players will feel that the Tiefling is getting away easy, while THEY suffer all the nasty effects.Next thing I know, I will be seeing every other new character being made, will be a Tiefling.
On the OTHER hand, if I follow raw and rule that Fire Res does nothing to help vs heat environment, I feel like I am singling out the Tiefling player.
I understand that logically, that heat environment rules, are reflecting the water lost, exhaustion and lost of ions(salt) from being in a hot environment. Being resistance to being burn, does not equal to being able to withstand the lost of water.
But... someone please help me... ToT
Tiefling (13 RP) - Pathfinder_OGC
www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling
Fiendish Resistance: Tieflings have cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.
This would make them more resiliant in a hot climate, but not fire proof.
When assigning non-lethal damage to your characters, reduce the damage by 5 for the tiefling, though if you role less than five you should always give 1 point. Tieflings are not fire or heat proof, only resistant.
I would give him a bonus on the Fortitude save, say DC 17 or 18. He would take the minimum damage, 1 point. This way the Tieflings Fiendish resiliance is a real advantage, but it doesn't break the game. He will last longer than non-tiefling players. Once he loses all his tempoary hit points, he will start taking lethal damage, just less of it than the other players.
From the environmental rules. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules)
Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered from until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once a character has taken an amount of nonlethal damage equal to her total hit points, any further damage from a hot environment is lethal damage.
A character in very hot conditions (above 90° F) must make a Fortitude saving throw each hour (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the skill description). Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per hour).
|
|
@Dyvant L'Stranj, I understand that weapons deal a minimum of 1 point of non-lethal damage on a hit. But does this "minimum damage" rule applies to environmental damage as well?
As you said, I will most likely make him resilient in a hot climate(bonus against the heat effects.), but not fire proof (he still must roll for it).
I don't think elementals and demons sweat.
You are really are not getting my point are you? =_=
I'm concern about player characters. In this case a Tiefling character.
In any case, demons do sweat. A demon sweats A LOT when he finds himself alone in heaven, with choirs of angels bearing down on him... and he has no way of plane shifting... :P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Secane
I'd give the tiefling a 'circumstance' bonus to the checks, it's totally within RAW to do so as a GM and it doesn't read more into an ability which may cause issues with the rest of the party or push the envelope on table variance.
Given that the tiefling doesn't get the bonus from spells that specifically target humanoids, such as enlarge person, there are trade offs for what powers the tiefling does receive.
For those that are saying fire damage =/= on going heat damage, what about in the case of a spell that does on going fire damage? If you are partially submerged in lava you take fire damage every round, and fire resistance will definitely mitigate some of that damage. If you're a red dragon, you can play in lava all day because you have fire immunity. Lava, is definitely hotter than any desert. So you're telling me that red dragon is going to be exhausted because its fire immunity doesn't protect it from the heat? That's ridiculous.
Fire resistance works against heat damage, if it negates all non-lehtal damage from the heat than it also negates any effects from the heat as well. If you don't allow this for the tiefling you're punishing him.
Also, endure elements is 1st level spell castable by cleric, wizard, sorceror, druid. If you're characters have just the slightest bit of knowledge of where they are or where they're going they'll probably be smart enough to have the spell and prepare enough for everyone. Or heck, even buy a wand of endure elements pmce they can afford it.
Also, if you read the spell description of endure elements it says it protects completely up to 140F without having ot make saves, but doesn't provide any fire protection. The way I interpret that is that fire resistance is better than endure elements, and should also protect against heat effects. Don't single out the tiefling for punishment because his ability works, the other players if properly prepared shouldn't have any real problems with it either.
I agree with Claxon, though I'd only provide immunity if the resistance can block all damage. I GM for a party with an invulnerable barbarian that at the time had 2 cold resistance, I simply rolled non-lethal damage and made the barbarian make a save when it received damage.
This topic was also covered for cold resistance in another thread I found under Reign of Winter. here is the original threads that shows a game reference (look at the last post, point 9). That may be considered RAW/RAI (probably RAI) since it is an offical Pathfinder Source.
I do things a little differently for my games, but here are my house rules (for cold; I will have to make another for heat when I do an AP with it):
Cold Resistance subtracts from both lethal and non-lethal environmental cold damage as well as granting a bonus to Fortitude saves to resist the damage equal to your Cold Resistance (which you must fail first to take damage, then you subtract your Cold Resistance from that damage). Note that at Cold Resistance 6 you are Immune to Environmental Cold damage.
A Ranger with Favored Terrain (Cold), upon a successful Survival check, may split his Favored Terrain bonus between those he successfully made the check for, including himself, as a Fortitude save bonus. This is in addition to the +2 or +4 bonus given by the Survival check. As an example, a Ranger with Favored Terrain (Cold) +6 makes a successful Survival check for himself and two party members while camped. They all get the standard +4 bonus from Survival; in addition, the Ranger gets to split his Favored Terrain (Cold) bonus among himself and his two companions. He gives one of his companions suffering from severe hypothermia the full +6, granting that member a +10 Fortitude save bonus while he and the other companion both get the standard +4 bonus.
As I said, that is a houserule, probably meant more for the houserule topic. I hope the "official" source information helps some though.
|
|
Let me put it another way by using an example:
A 7th level Sorcerer builds and lights a campfire in the first hall of the Citadel of Flame. He lets it burn for several hours until it is a well established fire (a campfire can be around 500 to 700 degrees). He then casts Fire Resistance on himself. This gives him Fire Resistance 20 for 70 minutes.
The sorcerer takes a seat in the middle of the campfire and meditates for an hour. During that hour, the Fire Resistance protects him from the 500 degree fire...but after one hour, the ambient heat from within the citadel is so brutal that he takes 1d4 non-lethal damage? Does that really make sense to you?
If I was the player with the Tiefling character and you tried to pull that, I would think you were a tool (sorry). Let the player bask in the glory of his character's ability.
|
|
@Skylancer4,
I'm going with your suggestion. I'm giving a +5 bonus to players with 5 Rez Fire.
@Claxon,
Why won't enlarge person affect a tiefling??? Tieflings are humanoids. 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, stands upright?
Tieflings are after all humans with outsider heritage.
@Swashbucklersdc, Can you show the link? If there is an official source, I would prefer to follow it. Thank you.
@RedDogMT
Please understand, if I am unconcern about running a fair game, I won't be posting this question on the rule's forum. It is because I don't want to undermine my players, that I am trying to understand this game mechanic.
As for your sorcerer example. While he is clearly not burning. The fire would be making him lose body fluids from the very hot fire and getting very thirsty. That can explained why he is taking non-lethal damage.
As for other creatures like Fire Elementals, they are Immune to fire. Which is another question.
This is the link to the post; the reference is from the module The Witchwar Legacy. Credit to original poster...
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nevl?Energy-Resistance-meets-Environment-Weath er
@Skylancer4,
Why won't enlarge person affect a tiefling??? Tieflings are humanoids. 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, stands upright?
Tieflings are after all humans with outsider heritage.@RedDogMT
Please understand, if I am unconcern about running a fair game, I won't be posting this question on the rule's forum. It is because I don't want to undermine my players, that I am trying to understand this game mechanic.
As for your sorcerer example. While he is clearly not burning. The fire would be making him lose body fluids from the very hot fire and getting very thirsty. That can explained why he is taking non-lethal damage.
As for other creatures like Fire Elementals, they are Immune to fire. Which is another question.
Tieflings are Outsider(native), not Humanoid(x), which is why Enlarge Person does not work.
As for this nonsense about losing body fluids, it's just that, nonsense. Heat is heat. Damage done to you is through an increase (or decrease in the case of cold) in temperature, weather it's nonlethal (because it doesn't directly kill body tissue yet) or otherwise. Resistance is more than just "my skin doesn't burn." Your entire biology is geared to be able to withstand a certain degree of temperature (as represented by the number resisted). I'm fine with people using RAW, just don't try to pretend it makes sense. Because it doesn't.
My take on it--->Heat damage is prevented by fire resistance.<---The only reason fire causes problems is because of the heat.
Also: "Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of fire damage per minute (no save)."
PS:I did not read all of the post so this may have been answered already.
@Claxon,
Why won't enlarge person affect a tiefling??? Tieflings are humanoids. 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, stands upright?
Tieflings are after all humans with outsider heritage.
As Brotato noted, Tieflings have the type Outsider (native), not Humanoid (x). Humans have type humanoid(human), Orcs have humanoid(orc), etc, etc. In the spell enlarge person it says target "one humanoid creature". That does not mean a creature with a head, two arms, and two legs, because then elementals could qualify (possibly, thats another argument). Humanoid means a specific type, with the races as subtypes. As another example, half-elves have a type of Humanoid(human, elf). Since Tieflings do not count as humanoids, they cannot be affected by enlarge person. This is also the case for Aasimars.
See this thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p5ed?Can-you-cast-Enlarge-person-on-an-Aasimar #1, which says what I said above.
@Brotato
I'm trying to make sense of it, so that when my players, ask me why their rez does not help them. I can give a better answer then, "cos RAW says so..."
The problem is that RAW *is* your only reason to deny their resistance to environmental damage. As Wraithstrike pointed out, it even calls out *fire* as being *an extreme in temperature that deals lethal damage.* There is no rationalization you can give to deny energy resistance works against nonlethal environmental damage other than "it's RAW."
A great point brought up in the thread Swashbucklerdc posted is that if fire resistance doesn't negate heat damage from the environment, and cold resistance doesn't negate cold damage from the environment, then it would ruin the theme and purpose of the abilities from the Horizon Walker class. You can take terrain mastery of both fire and cold as part of the class. Each grants you 10 resist of either fire or cold. Then intent of this class is to allow you to go anywhere unhindered, so how would it make sense to say that the horizon walker with fire terrain mastery is exhausted by the heat of the desert.
Ultimately you are the GM at your table, but if I was your player we would probably have an argument about it and I would probably end up going to another table.
I have also went to the "Ask James Jacob" thread and inquired about this so we can hopefully have a semi-official ruling.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=612?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#30575
James,
Can you make a ruling about the effectiveness of cold/fire resistance and evironmental dangers of heat and cold? Does cold/fire resistance negate the dangers of cold/heat? Does it reduce the lethal damage one would take if the fail the associated save? Does one get a bonus to fortitude save for their resistance? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Damage from cold temperatures is cold damage. Damage from hot temperatures is fire damage.
(Sits back and waits for someone to run with this post and cause a big scene over in the rules forums.)
Hot temperature damage is fire damage and cold temperature damage is cold damage. The proper energy resistances apply. Thread done.
|
|
Thanks Claxon!
Love the way James know that he just opened a Pandora box. :)
So let me get this clear.
Fire Rez = no effect on the Save, but do Rez the non-lethal damage.
Which for a 5 Rez fire creature is almost a guarantee of not being affected by heat.
Now I just got to hope I roll 6s... cue evil laugh...!
Thanks Claxon!
Love the way James know that he just opened a Pandora box. :)So let me get this clear.
Fire Rez = no effect on the Save, but do Rez the non-lethal damage.
Which for a 5 Rez fire creature is almost a guarantee of not being affected by heat.Now I just got to hope I roll 6s... cue evil laugh...!
That's exactly how I take Jame's words. And, that's what I've been trying to suggest all along in this thread, although I'm not sure if that was clear or not.
So, at the proper time intervals your player would make the fortitude save (hopefully adding a bonus from survival and any other gear). If they make the save nothing happens, but the DC does go up over time. When they fail the save, you roll the damage. They will negate all damage except on a roll of 6. If all damage is negated, they don't take any of the other effects associated with heat. If the tiefling had instead fire resist 6, they would effectively be immune to the effects of heat under 140F.