Here's a fun one I was just debating with another GM:
Poor BBEG wizard is flanked by a fighter and a paladin (both with Silence cast on them) on the edge of a 1000' cliff.
Can the wizard take a 5' step off the cliff (no AoO), fall for the entire round (roughly 550', well out of the Silence fields), and then nuke them with a long-range spell, without taking any AoO's?
I figure a high-level wizard would be more than happy to fall for a few hundred feet to avoid getting cuisinarted, and this seems like an easy cheesy way to avoid AoO's (if you happen to have a cliff handy).
And since I'd like this to be a happy, active thread: What if he just drops 30' out of the Silence field and hits the ground? Does that still count as part of his move action (less than half the round, after all), so he can nuke without taking a concentration check?
Yeah, he's going to be hit on the way down like Kayerloth said. Also, concentration checks are in ordered for plummeting so quickly.
I would say give the players a reflex save to make an AoO, unless they have dealt with cliff hopping wizards in the past, because most people dont consider a cliff a reasonable escape route
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Let's imagine the caster was bull rushed off the cliff.
They would not provoke then.
Why would it be different?
He willingly stepped off the cliff edge?
I would say give the players a reflex save to make an AoO, unless they have dealt with cliff hopping wizards in the past, because most people dont consider a cliff a reasonable escape route.
Falling is unwilling movement. It does not provoke.
How the individual came to be falling is irrelevant.
So, whether the person 5ft. step off the cliff, or was bull rushed off, they are the same.
Falling is falling.
Citation that unwilling movement does not provoke? Bull Rush says that the movement from Bull rush doesn't provoke but no where else that I can find does it say that forced movement doesn't provoke.
I'm not calling throwing yourself off a cliff unwilling movement. Perhaps if everyone were surprised that a cliff was suddenly there. I'd prefer to call the maneuver a Withdraw. Use your swift action for the Feather Fall so you don't fall out of blasting range before you get your evocation off.
I was as well, but this made me look it up, which was why I was asking. I know trip doesn't provoke unless you have greater trip, the Pull ability from an Eidolon doesn't provoke either as well as the Monster Feat, and the same goes for Push, but I can't seem to find anything on falling and the movement from a grapple doesn't say it doesn't provoke, but moving them into a wall of fire or pit causes them to make a free grapple check.
So it would appear that some forms of forced movement do, while some do not.
How about this, you 5 foot stepped off the cliff and tried to hold that position, and then surprised by the unexpected and overpowering will of gravity, you begin to head downward, another 5 foot movement going around a corner. This gives the AoO user a bonus to hit you due to advantage of higher ground but you get partial cover for being around a corner.
I'm imagining all of the times in my youth when practicing baseball, tossing the ball up and then while it was falling (and before it hit the ground or got out of range), changing the grip on my bat, changing my stance, and then sending that small sphere sailing up the hill and far away. A fighter and paladin flanking the wizard already have their grip and stance. I'm not seeing making an AoO as being a problem (like forcing an extra reflex save) where I would feel the need to explain away how I interpreted the RAW.
For what it's worth.
Attacked While Flying: You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature's movement.
Falling is falling, as is said above. However, apparently not all falling is actually falling… or something.
Point is, the Climb skill allows you to catch a falling character instantly - it doesn't even take an action. Of course, that doesn't jive with normal combat rules at all.
As Darkwolf pointed out above, losing altitude due to damage while flying doesn't provoke.
Being moved by a combat maneuver doesn't provoke unless the aggressor is using a special feat to do so.
I would say that hostile characters do not get to take AoO on falling characters (unless they ready an action?). Falling happens instantly, after all (a character can move 30 ft., fall 500 ft., and still attack a foe assuming they survive the fall… all within 6 seconds). Friendly characters get the Climb/grab, pretty much to support teamwork within the game.
What if he just drops 30' out of the Silence field and hits the ground? Does that still count as part of his move action (less than half the round, after all), so he can nuke without taking a concentration check?
He'd still have to make a concentration check. See Violent Motion. I would argue that a 30 foot tumble would be extremely violent (any fall that causes damage should be), making the DC 20 + spell level. He might not be falling when he casts the spell, but I would apply the violent motion condition until the next round as the character recovers.
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I think it depends on the presumption of what causes an AoO.
a) You provoke an AoO if you move without some rule stating that you don't provoke.
b) You only provoke if you do something listed as provoking.
c) You normally only provoke if YOU are taking an action that's listed as provoking.
I think C is the most accurate. Getting tripped, pushed around, losing altitude and all that don't provoke, unless someone has an ability to add that as an effect.
In the case of falling, the wizard isn't taking any action listed as provoking, since he's not moving himself, he's being moved by gravity.
That does indeed bring up the question of the rider and his horse: is the rider protected against AoOs? Implicitly, no; Ride-By Attack protects you and your mount from AoO from the enemy attacked.
However, I think that may have to do with the tendency to treat a mounted character as being somewhat one-unit rather than entirely separate creatures. Funky.
Falling would cause an AoO. If you were using the fly spell to fight another character with fly, you can't "fall" to get out of range without provoking. Your movement still counts.
Jumping off a cliff would be the same thing, in my opinion.
As to the concentration check, I would rule none is required. Violent motion is when something jostles you, not just falling. If he did not know he was going to fall, maybe. But if he planned the whole thing out than I would grant him the ability to cast without an issue.
Actually, it's a bit simpler.
he can't 5 ft adjust onto open air because you can't 5ft adjust onto difficult terrain, and I submit that a cliff face is difficult terrain.
So, he can jump off, but it's a normal movement, therefore provokes. Not because he's falling, but because he has to use a normal movement to do it.
Now, he get's an acrobatics check to avoid them, and I'd give him a +5 circumstance bonus unless he's got a reputation for jumping off cliffs, as most people don't expect that tactic.
He is not stepping onto the cliff face, he is stepping into midair.
He is not stepping onto the cliff face, he is stepping into midair.
Again, that is difficult terrain.
Hills
Cliff: A cliff typically requires a DC 15 Climb check to scale and is 1d4 × 10 feet tall, although the needs of your map might mandate a taller cliff. A cliff isn't perfectly vertical, taking up 5-foot squares if it's less than 30 feet tall and 10-foot squares if it's 30 feet or taller.Mountains
Cliff: These terrain elements also function like their hills terrain counterparts, but they're typically 2d6 × 10 feet tall. Cliffs taller than 80 feet take up 20 feet of horizontal space.
So he can't pull the coyote thing where all the cliffs are sheered off and perfectly vertical. Because they aren't, he's really moving into difficult terrain. The OP said it was a 100 ft cliff, that means that from the 'edge' of the top, to the bottom, it's 20 ft. Again, difficult terrain, not open air. Moving on it requires climb checks, which makes it difficult terrain. The only way to 'drop' to the bottom is to make a 20 ft jump check from the edge of the top to the edge of the bottom, which is a normal movement, not a 5ft adjust.
Attacked While Flying: You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature's movement.
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It specifies descent after taking damage while flying. I wouldn't expand that to all falling. How about this scenario;Wiz
!
!
-BBEG
!
!
!_____ground
The wizard is flying 15' above the BBEG and wants to fly straight down to the ground through his threatened area. Can he fly down without suffering an AOO? No. Can he fall down without suffering an AOO?
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Here's a fun one I was just debating with another GM:
Poor BBEG wizard is flanked by a fighter and a paladin (both with Silence cast on them) on the edge of a 1000' cliff.
Can the wizard take a 5' step off the cliff (no AoO), fall for the entire round (roughly 550', well out of the Silence fields), and then nuke them with a long-range spell, without taking any AoO's?
I figure a high-level wizard would be more than happy to fall for a few hundred feet to avoid getting cuisinarted, and this seems like an easy cheesy way to avoid AoO's (if you happen to have a cliff handy).
And since I'd like this to be a happy, active thread: What if he just drops 30' out of the Silence field and hits the ground? Does that still count as part of his move action (less than half the round, after all), so he can nuke without taking a concentration check?
As to the original scenario we don't know, maybe the cliff was a 1000 foot sheer drop. Then you could argue the wizard would only suffer 1 Aoo if he took a diagonal 5' step.
Oh, there is no "original scenario" with a 1000' cliff. I won't write up the spoiler, but we lost half the party to a wizard on a 2nd-floor balcony, got a really well-explained re-do from the GM (the gods work in mysterious ways), so I got to map out my "Let's hose the caster," approach that ended up with him being flanked by two Silenced fighting classes on the surprise round. (I do not like to lose, even if I was one of the survivors of the original debacle.)
I showed it to the GM, and he pointed out that it wasn't an auto-kill, because the caster could take a 5' step off the balcony, plummet to the lower floor, and nuke us. I pointed out that since the floor was only 15' below us, he'd still be in the Silence field, so all he'd do would be to entertain us with a useless fall.
That brought up the whole, "What if the drop were significantly larger?" debate, so I thought I'd post it. Glad to see it's gotten much more entertaining over the evening...
Personally, I tend to agree with the notion that empty air is "difficult terrain" so you can't just take a 5' step into it. That makes the most sense to me. But then you get, "What if the wizard is flying or levitating so empty air isn't difficult, then turns it off to drop?"
At that point, I have to think the fighter and the pally are going to be rather surprised at the wizard's unorthodox exit, so I wouldn't be offended if my GM denied me my AoO, though getting nuked from 500' would be painful...
Taking a 5 ft. step doesn't provoke. If after that you fall DOWN, then that is forced movement which doesn't provoke. Even if it did provoke, you are moving from a space with cover (the ledge) which means you can't make an AoO against the target anyway.
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Again, that is difficult terrain.
I'm confused. How is completely empty space considered difficult to step into? It... really can't get any less restrictive than nothing being there. Difficult terrain is for things that are actually restrictive and difficult to move through.
...such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs...
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There are so many issues with both the in game scenario and the hypothetical scenario.
5 ft. step- No AoO...
Falling distance and damage is calculated immediately and character is prone.
CRB Wrote:
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall.
So the 15' scenario- No AoO, 1d6 damage and prone. Caster can take a standard action to get up or cast from prone...end of turn.
1000 ft. scenario- 5 ft. step No AoO, cannot cast until 500 ft mark or attack spell must be a immediate action, hefty concentration check required. Targets on ledge get Improved Cover. Go ahead and cast away if possible...then calculate fall damage, dead falling caster end of turn.
Once again great job by Paizo team no loophole here... :)
Taking a 5 ft. step doesn't provoke. If after that you fall DOWN, then that is forced movement which doesn't provoke. Even if it did provoke, you are moving from a space with cover (the ledge) which means you can't make an AoO against the target anyway.
Again, please post me a link to the rules that say forced movement doesn't provoke an AoO. Certain moves say specifically that their movement doesn't provoke, such as Bull Rush and Pull/Push, but there is no where that I found that says forced movement of all types does not provoke.
Again, that is difficult terrain.I'm confused. How is completely empty space considered difficult to step into? It... really can't get any less restrictive than nothing being there. Difficult terrain is for things that are actually restrictive and difficult to move through.
...such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs...
I quoted you the rules about cliffs, what part of 'cliffs take up 20 feet' do you not understand?
It's not open air. It's not a sheer drop. It's like this.
##CCCC##
##CCCC##
##CCCC##
##CCCC##
# = flattish ground (non difficult)
C = Cliff Face
See how wide that cliff face is? And there's no guarantee it's all down, there may be spikes up, trees growing up off it, bushes, brambles.
I have a 100 ft cliff behind my house, it leads down into an arroyo with a stream. There's no sheer drop, there's spikes of stone coming up in spots, there's trees growing out of the cliff face and bending up. In other words, it's not thin air.
You seem to be stuck, as I said earlier, in Wiley Coyote land, where ever cliff is an prominance stuck out over a thousand foot drop.
Even if you had that though, I don't believe an open space with no ground is not difficult terrain. You can't just hop off it as a five foot step and not provoke. The act of hopping would open you up to attack. If you just take a step off, you are going to lose your balance partway through the step (if you've ever missed a step on a set of stairs you know how fast your body goes out of your control when there's nothing supporting one of your legs and gravity takes over), that opens you up to an attack. The only way to get over it without pinwheeling arms is to deliberately jump off it. There is no 5ft jump adjustment in the rules. Jumping is done with a move action, and that provokes.
If falling does provoke, than the create pit spells just got a LOT better, and they were pretty decent already. I'll have to trick my GM into approving this and get our fighters to get reach weapons.
Leaving aside the exact circumstances and location of the fall, I don't think falling provokes, even if you fall deliberately.
If falling does provoke, than the create pit spells just got a LOT better, and they were pretty decent already. I'll have to trick my GM into approving this and get our fighters to get reach weapons.
Leaving aside the exact circumstances and location of the fall, I don't think falling provokes, even if you fall deliberately.
I don't think the fall does provoke.
I do think moving to make the fall does.
If falling does provoke, than the create pit spells just got a LOT better, and they were pretty decent already. I'll have to trick my GM into approving this and get our fighters to get reach weapons.
Leaving aside the exact circumstances and location of the fall, I don't think falling provokes, even if you fall deliberately.
I don't think the fall does provoke.
I do think moving to make the fall does.
That makes sense.
Hm. I might allow a player to step into open space. But I think the argument that empty space is difficult terrain is justifiable. Consider a 5 foot step. To me that implies a slow, cautious, shuffling movement. You couldn't do that on deep snow because the snow doesn't provide enough substance to support that movement. Open air provides no support at all. You'd put one foot out into it, and then you'd lose your balance and start to topple helplessly. That's when you'd provoke.
Hm. I might allow a player to step into open space. But I think the argument that empty space is difficult terrain is justifiable. Consider a 5 foot step. To me that implies a slow, cautious, shuffling movement. You couldn't do that on deep snow because the snow doesn't provide enough substance to support that movement. Open air provides no support at all. You'd put one foot out into it, and then you'd lose your balance and start to topple helplessly. That's when you'd provoke.
Could you withdraw into open space?
Hm. I might allow a player to step into open space. But I think the argument that empty space is difficult terrain is justifiable. Consider a 5 foot step. To me that implies a slow, cautious, shuffling movement. You couldn't do that on deep snow because the snow doesn't provide enough substance to support that movement. Open air provides no support at all. You'd put one foot out into it, and then you'd lose your balance and start to topple helplessly. That's when you'd provoke.Could you withdraw into open space?
Yes, I believe you could do that. It would depend on the setup whether it would be effective. Remember, you only count the square you are in as unthreatened, if you moved through any other threatened squares before going over the edge, those would still provoke.
Note, you could use jump to jump down if it's a short enough fall, or to clear the 20 feet of cliff face to avoid getting caught up on something. You could do the jump with a withdraw, since jumping is part of moving, but you might then still provoke in mid air since you're under control if they are right on the edge of the cliff with you.
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Taking a 5-foot step into the open air shouldn't provoke, neither should the falling. It's a cinematic action done in the movies & TV all the time. It's cool, involves some risk to the falling character (barring feather fall), and changes the dynamic of a combat encounter.
I'd more than allow it, I'd encourage such bravado as a GM.
--Falling Vrock Area
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I'll agree that the open air is "too difficult" terrain for the 5ft step. But suppose you had another way of moving into the open air that didn't provoke - would the fall then provoke?
Can someone show me a rule that says falling provokes? AFAIK, there's a list of actions you can take (including regular movement) that provokes. But being moved, by gravity or maneuvers, isn't on that list.
It would be reasonable for falling to provoke, after all, it impairs your ability to defend yourself. But so does getting tripped, repositioned, bull rushed and so forth; and none of those provoke without the Greater feats.
So by RAW I don't think falling off a cliff provokes; there's no rule saying that it does, and in that absence, you don't provoke.
I quoted you the rules about cliffs, what part of 'cliffs take up 20 feet' do you not understand?
The situation is more theoretical though. According to the OP, it's a thought exercise more than anything else. If you'd prefer to picture it as a 1000-foot tall building (the original scenario involved a 2nd story balcony), then you get the intended idea.
So yes, you're right about cliffs, but the scenario can easily be accommodated. It is meant to be more like this: (with C being replaced by whatever you're stepping off of, and the '—' being open air)
#C—
#C—
#C—
#C—
As for whether or not a 5-foot step into free air is difficult terrain, I can't see how it would be. There's nothing getting in your way and it's not like you need to make a lot of effort to do it.
Scenes abound in movies and other media where someone can be standing on an edge and just step off it. It's not exactly difficult to let yourself drop. The fact that you'll be losing your balance (which, itself, I don't agree with. If anything, I think a small controlled step off would keep better balance than if you hopped, ran, jumped, or did whatever), doesn't really play into it much either. You're still only moving from one 5-foot square into another 5-foot square, except the second one doesn't have anything to support you, and falling takes over.
The rules, obviously, aren't crystal clear on it, so I'm pretty sure it'll fall into GM territory in any event. Based on the relevant rules around falling and 5-foot steps, my personal opinion as a GM would be yes, you can 5-foot step off some structure into open air, and no, falling does not provoke attacks. Just my opinion though, of course.
@Ascalaphus
Falling also doesn't specify that it doesn't provoke. Tripped, attacks that reposition and all of them state that this movement does not provoke.
Moving at your regular speed provokes attacks of opportunity. The Move move action also covers nonstandard movement, such as climbing and swimming and someone could probably argue that falling is a nonstandard mode of movement.
Can someone show me a rule that says falling provokes? AFAIK, there's a list of actions you can take (including regular movement) that provokes. But being moved, by gravity or maneuvers, isn't on that list.
OK...
Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Are you moving while falling? Note, it doesn't say, "when you use a movement action to move out", it just says "Moving out".
top viewP|
W|X
F|
------
side view
XW
y
The wizard takes a 5' step to X and then falls to y(and keeps falling). Does the cliff edge provide enough cover to prevent AoO?
Falling also doesn't specify that it doesn't provoke. Tripped, attacks that reposition and all of them state that this movement does not provoke.
If it was normal that forced movement didn't provoke, why did they need to add that line to all those rules?
-------------------------------------Attacked While Flying: You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature's movement.
It specifies descent after taking damage while flying. I wouldn't expand that to all falling. How about this scenario;
Wiz!
!
-BBEG
!
!
!_____ground
The wizard is flying 15' above the BBEG and wants to fly straight down to the ground through his threatened area. Can he fly down to the ground, but takes an AOO? Could he choose to fall down without suffering an AOO? Apparently most of you would say yes.
The wizard is flying 15' above the BBEG and wants to fly straight down to the ground through his threatened area. Can he fly down to the ground, but takes an AOO? Could he choose to fall down without suffering an AOO? Apparently most of you would say yes.
Actually yes, I would. If you have at-will flight, such as through wings or something, I would say that you can stop flying, fall through a threatened area without provoking, and then start it up again.
However:
Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.
I might rule it as a purposefully failed fly check, meaning you wouldn't be able to avoid the falling damage (unless maybe if it was more than 500 feet, or whatever it is that counts as a full round spent falling, so you could try then).
If you didn't want to drop a full 500 feet, then you'd need to be in control of your movement. And incidentally, there is a skill for moving through people's threatened area without provoking. That's called Acrobatics.
Note: The idea of aerial acrobatics to fall past the enemy, and then catch yourself, sounds pretty awesome. But yeah, I'd call that an Acrobatics in a move action if you didn't want to plummet 500 feet.
One way of provoking an AoO could be described as not having control of your body.
When "falling" you have limited control. If you were vertical and you wanted to turn to the left, you are most likely to have your torso do half the turn and your legs do half the turn to the right. You have no resistance to stop your legs from turning as if you were on ground.
There is no reason to believe you should be able to move through without provoking the AoO.
The wizard is flying 15' above the BBEG and wants to fly straight down to the ground through his threatened area. Can he fly down to the ground, but takes an AOO? Could he choose to fall down without suffering an AOO? Apparently most of you would say yes.Actually yes, I would. If you have at-will flight, such as through wings or something, I would say that you can stop flying, fall through a threatened area without provoking, and then start it up again.
Please cite the rule you are using to say falling doesn't provoke?
--------------------------------After thinking about the op...
Poor BBEG wizard is flanked by a fighter and a paladin (both with Silence cast on them) on the edge of a 1000' cliff.
Can the wizard take a 5' step off the cliff (no AoO), fall for the entire round (roughly 550', well out of the Silence fields), and then nuke them with a long-range spell, without taking any AoO's?
...it depends on if you let the Wizard do a 5' step to x(the square next to him) or y(the diagonal square 5' down).
xWy
5' steps can be diagonals, but can it be diagonal down to open air? If you allow the wizard to 5' step to y, then the cliff provides cover(As Ashiel pointed out previously) and prevents AoO as the Wizard moves out of y. If the wizard can only move to x, then falling from x to y would provoke an AoO. If the cliff is using the Environmental rules...
Hills
Cliff: A cliff typically requires a DC 15 Climb check to scale and is 1d4 × 10 feet tall, although the needs of your map might mandate a taller cliff. A cliff isn't perfectly vertical, taking up 5-foot squares if it's less than 30 feet tall and 10-foot squares if it's 30 feet or taller.Mountains
Cliff: These terrain elements also function like their hills terrain counterparts, but they're typically 2d6 × 10 feet tall. Cliffs taller than 80 feet take up 20 feet of horizontal space.
...then the 5' step provokes anyway.
Please cite the rule you are using to say falling doesn't provoke?
Rule Zero :P
The rules, obviously, aren't crystal clear on it, so I'm pretty sure it'll fall into GM territory in any event... my personal opinion as a GM would be...