Introducing: The Psion!

[Matthew Koelbl]

So, the Psion super-advance preview hit for DDI today, with one full build for the class from levels 1-30. Some very interesting stuff.

Much of it was as expected... Int-based Psionic Controller, with other mental stats as secondary abilities, and two primary disciplines (essentially Telepathy and Telekinesis. I suspect many of the other older disciplines will work their way into other Psionic classes, but that we'll have to wait and see.)

The Telepathy build previewed, which uses Charisma, is primarily about tearing enemy minds apart, inflicting various debilitating effects, lots of charm/domination, and a surprising number of personal defenses (including quite a few effects which leach health from an opponent as you ramp up your psychic assault.) Names of powers avoided overt anachronisms, but plenty of the old favorites were there (Psychic Chirurgery, Intellect Fortress, Id Insinuation, etc.)

But the big surprise... is the use of power points. A mix of the old and new, the new Psion rules manage to both fit entirely within the 4E framework while also standing entirely apart from what has come before. How so?

The Psion gets no Encounter powers.

Instead, they get to choose from various At Wills as they level up - never gaining more than three, but with the ability to select various new ones at higher levels. And each At Will has its normal, non-augmented mode... as well as the ability to use either a minor augment or major augment, costing a certain number of power points. Each Psion has a pool of power points that refreshed on a short rest, and increases as they level.

What does this mean in practice? If a Psion chooses, they can operate pretty much exactly like a normal character. Using a Major Augment on their powers tends to bump it to standard encounter level - so the Psion can use their three At Wills during the fight and expand all their power points to Major Augment them, and then spend the rest of the fight using them at their lesser power level.

But they also could choose to instead use one repeatedly with minor augments, or use one multiple times with major augments while ignoring other powers. Essentially, they can mix and match what powers they want to use and what they get out of it. It makes for an interesting counterpart to the Wizard, who has a massive selection outside of combat, and potentially some limited ability to switch choices in combat - but still has to use what powers he gets the way they are intended. The Psion instead has a limited number of options, but each one of which can be adjusted in a variety of ways.

Daily and Utility Powers work as normal.

So, the question is - is this good design? In the end, that really depends on the powers themselves, and how well they are balanced. Because of how the power points scale, a Psion could choose to pass on their higher level At Wills and stick with some low-level ones that are cheap to augment, and thus can be boosted several times during a fight.... the equivalent, in other terms, of trading a level 27 encounter power for three level 1 encounter powers.

Whether that is a worthwhile trade will depend, again, on the powers. Is it worth gaining the ability to (for example) spend three turns hitting several enemies for low damage and significant attack penalties, when you could instead spend one turn doing slightly higher damage, but leaving them stunned? That seems a trade-off that could go either way, but other specific comparisons might not be as balanced. That is my only worry - some of the low level powers look very, very good, and the ability to get constant use out of them at later levels could be too much.

On the other hand, losing out on effects that stun, dominate, etc... is also a big deal.

At Heroic levels, I have no fears at all - this will be an interesting and engaging class to play. Even at Paragon levels, I think the optimization will balance well with the versatility of the class. And if I have fears about the power at Epic Levels - that's true of most classes, and controllers especially... more options mean more potential, no matter what. I certainly haven't seen any in action yet to know anything for sure!

Anyway, that's a basic overview of the class and what we've seen thus far. What do others think? It looks like the power point mechanic is likely to be in use for most other psionic classes (though the monk didn't use it) - the Psion has a few powers that let them transfer power points, which certainly imply such a thing.

Oh, and lest I forget - they've tied the fluff strongly into the fight against the Far Realm (which looks to be a theme in the PHB3). Psionic characters are theorized as something like the natural world's 'immune system' producing an answer to the threat of the unnatural incursions of the Far Realms (and the various psionic, madness inducing monsters therein...)

[KnightErrantJR]

While I am, in general, a 3.5 guy, I've played quite of bit of 4E, and while its not my favorite system, I don't think its a bad one. With that caveat firmly in place, I don't like power points. I think it complicates and detracts from the standard 4E system, even if it does work.

It just doesn't feel right to me. Its a deviation from the norm, and I'm not really sure why to do this, other than that there have been power points in other editions of the game. But if that's the case, why are power points considered more sacrosanct than, say, Vancian casting? In fact, from a complaint point of view, I've seen just as many arguments against power point augmentation as I have against Vancian casting.

Even if they had retained power points, I'm not really sure why they didn't do something similar to what they did with wizards, i.e. give a class feature with a nod towards the "old school" way of doing things such as the wizards extra spell in his spellbook.

I would have much preferred a power point system, if they felt they had to add it, that sat on top of the standard at will/encounter/daily ability.

[Davi The Eccentric]

Well, although I do agree with you somewhat, I do think Wizards did have to add in at least some new major class feature. With all the classes they keep coming out with, there's two basic things they could do with each new class to differentiate it from the standard example of their role (Examples using Controllers, because they have the most obvious example). Either they could A. Add in a major, class-defining class feature (Druid), or B. Change the fluff and give the powers a slightly-different focus (Invoker)

Now, Wizards can get away with B with Invokers because it was a new class and the fluff was good. However, they can't do that with the Psion. Psions have always been slightly different Wizards, and if they didn't add something to differentiate them, this whole class would of just reeked of pointlessness.

In other words, new classes based on classes from older editions need some major class feature to make it different, or it would be a glorified refluffing.

[Blazej]

I'm not able to see the preview, so all I got to go with is your description, but I just like to note that I do like the differences between the standard at-will/encounter/daily seen in other classes. I would like to even see this deviations more often.

[KnightErrantJR]

I get that, but the druid is a good example. Having powers that work either/or is an interesting twist within the system they have established. I probably wandered a bit off point when I started bemoaning this, but like I said at the end of my post, a power point system that sits on top of the standard system would have made the psion different without changing the set up.

But yeah, the druid was a good example to bring up.

[Davi The Eccentric]

KnightErrantJR wrote:

I get that, but the druid is a good example. Having powers that work either/or is an interesting twist within the system they have established. I probably wandered a bit off point when I started bemoaning this, but like I said at the end of my post, a power point system that sits on top of the standard system would have made the psion different without changing the set up.

But yeah, the druid was a good example to bring up.

Point. Still, this class is probably going to end up being somewhat like the Wild Sorcerer: only people who are willing to keep track of another thing are going to play this class. If someone wants to play a Psion but doesn't want to keep track of power points, they're either going to have to give it a shot or hope the DM is a halfway-decent person and will let them refluff one of the arcane classes.

So, agree to disagree about how good of an idea this is?

EDIT: Oh, and since someone in a pbp I'm in on the Wizards forum is playing a Psion, I'll be able to see how balanced it is.

[Arcmagik]

I like the concept of the new Psion but I am firing Wizards now. They promised the fully exclusive class as it would be released in the book and instead we got another playtest?

Oh. How annoying is the fact that the article doesn't have the Power mechanics but instead just has a link to the compendium... Great.

[Davi The Eccentric]

Arcmagik wrote:

Oh. How annoying is the fact that the article doesn't have the Power mechanics but instead just has a link to the compendium... Great.

Well, Piracy, blah blah, so on, so forth. Still, one thing that bugs me. They want as many people as they can to play this and tell them what to fix, correct? Then why do they make it subscriber-only? All the other stuff in Dragon, I understand, but playtests?

[Blazej]

Davi The Eccentric wrote:

Arcmagik wrote:

Oh. How annoying is the fact that the article doesn't have the Power mechanics but instead just has a link to the compendium... Great.

Well, Piracy, blah blah, so on, so forth. Still, one thing that bugs me. They want as many people as they can to play this and tell them what to fix, correct? Then why do they make it subscriber-only? All the other stuff in Dragon, I understand, but playtests?

Possibly because they wouldn't be able to manage a completely open playtest in order to get extra value out of it. If they freely release it to a much larger group, they may just get a lot of noise in response that the designers don't have time to parse through. By keeping it small, they might be getting all the information they need without a massive headache.

I also think that it adds additional value to the DDI for a significant group of people. Making it more profitable without that much extra work.

[Sebastrd]

KnightErrantJR wrote:

I would have much preferred a power point system, if they felt they had to add it, that sat on top of the standard at will/encounter/daily ability.

That's exactly what they did...

[KnightErrantJR]

Sebastrd wrote:

KnightErrantJR wrote:

I would have much preferred a power point system, if they felt they had to add it, that sat on top of the standard at will/encounter/daily ability.

That's exactly what they did...

How so? There are no encounter powers for a psion. That's a modification to the system, not an add on. And for the record, I'm not saying it won't work or won't be balanced, I'm say that I don't like the deviation thematically.

[mouthymerc]

Arcmagik wrote:

I like the concept of the new Psion but I am firing Wizards now. They promised the fully exclusive class as it would be released in the book and instead we got another playtest?

I don't recall them saying they were going to release the whole class, only one build, just as they did. You'll have to refresh my memory and point out where they said they were going to release the entire class.

Arcmagik wrote:

Oh. How annoying is the fact that the article doesn't have the Power mechanics but instead just has a link to the compendium... Great.

Since the people who will see this are the same that have access to the compendium and the full CB, this is not an issue. It only becomes an issue if you wish to print off the article and share it with others that do not have access. Which, I'm pretty sure, goes towards why they did it that way. It may not be the exclusive reason, though.

I like the class. The new design direction is different without being extremely so. I especially like the design notes that went with the article showing some of the reasoning for some of the directions taken. There will be a telekinetic build included in the PHB3 and another one is going to show up in a Dragon article after the books release. It was hinted at that many, if not all, of the six builds of psion from 3.0 will be back in one form or another.

Also, while not cut in stone, this is not a playtest class like the artificer and others, but an early release of the class as it shall appear. That is not to say that nothing will change, though. Those playtest classes were only released with one build, too.

[Matthew Koelbl]

KnightErrantJR wrote:

I get that, but the druid is a good example. Having powers that work either/or is an interesting twist within the system they have established. I probably wandered a bit off point when I started bemoaning this, but like I said at the end of my post, a power point system that sits on top of the standard system would have made the psion different without changing the set up.

But yeah, the druid was a good example to bring up.

It really is a question of how far afield they are willing to go. It does sound like PHB3 will have some more innovative mechanics (after PHB2 largely just had very polished implementations of the same material seen in PHB1). Which I'm fine with, as long as they don't go too far afield. For me, this is a pretty good implementation within the system, just as the druid was - I can certainly see how others might feel otherwise, though.

[Matthew Koelbl]

Arcmagik wrote:

I like the concept of the new Psion but I am firing Wizards now. They promised the fully exclusive class as it would be released in the book and instead we got another playtest?

Well, it isn't a playtest. That isn't to say they might not make changes based on the feedback of its performance (I certainly hope they are keeping that option open) - but the work itself is finalized as intended.

It is simply half the class because it is, in the end, a preview. It is still enough for a fully playable character.

That said, they did make it sound like it would be the full class entry. Honestly, my issue is more with the hype they tend to put out - about this and other DDI exclusives, and just how overblown it all is. But then, this tends to be not the advertising department, but the designers who write editorials and the like. It just isn't a role that suits them, and their overzealousness does tend to result in what ends up as overblown claims.

Still, I don't think it is worth getting angry over - it remains bonus content, and quality content at that.

Quote:

Oh. How annoying is the fact that the article doesn't have the Power mechanics but instead just has a link to the compendium... Great.

Well, I imagine it is an anti-piracy measure... and unlike most, one that is actually relatively effective without too much hindrance to the customer base. (It is pretty easy for any subscriber to flip through all the Psion info in the Compendium, or pull out specific powers to print out for a character. Even easier to just build the character in the CB or see the options there.)

As it is, most Dragon articles are released in PDF, which get distributed in pirated form within the day of release - all you have to do is send out the file. This exclusive is only really useful to subscribers, and while one could just print-screen and copy-paste info from the compendium, the workload becomes vastly bigger to pirate the content... which I imagine was the goal.

[Matthew Koelbl]

Davi The Eccentric wrote:

Well, Piracy, blah blah, so on, so forth. Still, one thing that bugs me. They want as many people as they can to play this and tell them what to fix, correct? Then why do they make it subscriber-only? All the other stuff in Dragon, I understand, but playtests?

Well, again - this specifically isn't a playtest. It is bonus content intended to be an incentive for subscribers - a 'perk' of their subscription. Currently, they give away a ton of previews in the month leading up to any books release - the chance to get greater advance info as a subscriber is a boon for those paying for DDI.

As for playtests themselves, I suspect the logic is the same (they remain one of the more popular features of Dragon - the chance to have a direct impact on the development of the game, even aside from seeing the content in advance.) And I suppose as long as they are getting enough feedback and testing, they don't need a release to everyone to test what they need to test.

[ArchLich]

Do you think that they will be releasing a power point version of the other classes as well? New mechanic sets them up for at least 2 or so complete PHBs if they wish to go that route.

[Scott Betts]

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

Well, I imagine it is an anti-piracy measure... and unlike most, one that is actually relatively effective without too much hindrance to the customer base. (It is pretty easy for any subscriber to flip through all the Psion info in the Compendium, or pull out specific powers to print out for a character. Even easier to just build the character in the CB or see the options there.)

This.

I was also initially put off by the change, but I realize why it was done. Also, I do not expect this will continue to be the case with magazine articles; the only reason they were able to do this is because the Compendium/Character Builder and article were updated simultaneously. I think you can expect to continue to see full power and feat write-ups appearing in non-preview articles just like they have been.

That said, as soon as I discovered this I popped open the Compendium, typed "psion" in the search box, clicked on the Powers tab and suddenly I had every Psion power listed there for me to pore over. I then hit the Feats tab and took a look at those. It ended up being about 20 seconds of extra effort, and I'm not the type to complain about that sort of thing.

[Scott Betts]

ArchLich wrote:

Do you think that they will be releasing a power point version of the other classes as well? New mechanic sets them up for at least 2 or so complete PHBs if they wish to go that route.

If you mean presenting power point versions of PHB1 or PHB2 classes, probably not.

[Matthew Koelbl]

Scott Betts wrote:

I was also initially put off by the change, but I realize why it was done. Also, I do not expect this will continue to be the case with magazine articles; the only reason they were able to do this is because the Compendium/Character Builder and article were updated simultaneously. I think you can expect to continue to see full power and feat write-ups appearing in non-preview articles just like they have been.

Yeah, this isn't going to be standard for Dragon articles. It will probably be the presentation fashion for other PHB3 previews, though we won't know until we see the next one. (I think a race preview, from what they've mentioned.)

[Arcmagik]

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

Arcmagik wrote:

Oh. How annoying is the fact that the article doesn't have the Power mechanics but instead just has a link to the compendium... Great.

Well, I imagine it is an anti-piracy measure... and unlike most, one that is actually relatively effective without too much hindrance to the customer base. (It is pretty easy for any subscriber to flip through all the Psion info in the Compendium, or pull out specific powers to print out for a character. Even easier to just build the character in the CB or see the options there.)

As it is, most Dragon articles are released in PDF, which get distributed in pirated form within the day of release - all you have to do is send out the file. This exclusive is only really useful to subscribers, and while one could just print-screen and copy-paste info from the compendium, the workload becomes vastly bigger to pirate the content... which I imagine was the goal.

Yeah... like how I would print if off and use it at the gaming table. This is the biggest peice of junk for me that I have no use for now because only I can use it. Yay! The DM can throw Psions at you but you can't play one, hahahahahahaha! Maybe if I find another DDI subscriber that is DMing they will let me use my version of the Psion. For me this is by far the most annoying thing from Wizards to date that directly effects me and I do not enjoy using the compendium very often and ONLY use it when I am preparing a print-out for monster stats.

I highly doubt it will stop Pirates though... some Pirate will come along and copy from all the links and compile a pdf just like they are doing for the 4E books that can no longer be gotten in pdf format.

Scott Betts wrote:

I was also initially put off by the change, but I realize why it was done. Also, I do not expect this will continue to be the case with magazine articles; the only reason they were able to do this is because the Compendium/Character Builder and article were updated simultaneously. I think you can expect to continue to see full power and feat write-ups appearing in non-preview articles just like they have been.

I am still put off by this. I certainly hope not as I don't want DDI to be regulated to only useful part of it being the CB for me. I doubt I will be reading over the Psion until next time I get into my CB if even then which makes it a useless 'perk' for me. I pre-emptively turned off auto renewal after seeing this article hopefully this isn't the new norm.

[Matthew Morris]

Scott Betts wrote:

ArchLich wrote:

Do you think that they will be releasing a power point version of the other classes as well? New mechanic sets them up for at least 2 or so complete PHBs if they wish to go that route.

If you mean presenting power point versions of PHB1 or PHB2 classes, probably not.

Since I don't deal in GSL matters...

Assuming that this PP Mechanic is in the PHB III, could a 3PP reverse engineer the PHB I and II classes to it? Or would that break the GSL?

Disclaimer

Spoiler:

No I don't play 4x, and not even their psions could make me

[Matthew Koelbl]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Scott Betts wrote:

ArchLich wrote:

Do you think that they will be releasing a power point version of the other classes as well? New mechanic sets them up for at least 2 or so complete PHBs if they wish to go that route.

If you mean presenting power point versions of PHB1 or PHB2 classes, probably not.

Since I don't deal in GSL matters...

Assuming that this PP Mechanic is in the PHB III, could a 3PP reverse engineer the PHB I and II classes to it? Or would that break the GSL?

I'm sure you could develop your own variations of the classes (Psionic Rogue, Psionic Fighter, etc), but it would require a pretty full rewriting of the At Will and Encounter Powers. It might be acceptable under the GSL, given the extent of your modification, but I'm not entirely sure what purpose the product would serve - PHB3 is likely to have its own Psionic Defender and Leader and such that will fill such roles anyway.

In summary:
-Mechanically possible? Sure, though it would probably be about as easy to homebrew a new class from scratch.
-GSL acceptable? Maybe, depending on how thorough the rewriting - and again, probably safer to make a new homebrewed class instead.

[Scott Betts]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Scott Betts wrote:

ArchLich wrote:

Do you think that they will be releasing a power point version of the other classes as well? New mechanic sets them up for at least 2 or so complete PHBs if they wish to go that route.

If you mean presenting power point versions of PHB1 or PHB2 classes, probably not.

Since I don't deal in GSL matters...

Assuming that this PP Mechanic is in the PHB III, could a 3PP reverse engineer the PHB I and II classes to it? Or would that break the GSL?

Disclaimer
** spoiler omitted **

I'm also not a GSL expert, but I think that as long as you don't attempt to redefine rule elements you should be fine. For instance, you can't say "We're changing how Magic Missile works - this is how Magic Missile works now." What you would need to do is expand the definitions of rule elements. For instance, "We're adding a variant of Magic Missile, called Augmentable Magic Missile, and this is how it works," should be totally fine as far as I can tell.

You'd probably have to wait until the power point system was added to the SRD, though. I think.

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

KnightErrantJR wrote:

I get that, but the druid is a good example. Having powers that work either/or is an interesting twist within the system they have established. I probably wandered a bit off point when I started bemoaning this, but like I said at the end of my post, a power point system that sits on top of the standard system would have made the psion different without changing the set up.

But yeah, the druid was a good example to bring up.

These power points sound a lot like a twist within the system as well to me. I mean its still essentially the 4E power system except Psions give it a twist by being able to augment powers. They balance that by removing encounter powers.

[Galdor the Great]

Davi The Eccentric wrote:

EDIT: Oh, and since someone in a pbp I'm in on the Wizards forum is playing a Psion, I'll be able to see how balanced it is.

How is the Psion working out in your pbp?

[Davi The Eccentric]

Galdor the Great wrote:

Davi The Eccentric wrote:

EDIT: Oh, and since someone in a pbp I'm in on the Wizards forum is playing a Psion, I'll be able to see how balanced it is.

How is the Psion working out in your pbp?

The game died about half-way through the first combat, and our luck was so bad that I can't really tell if how bad we ended up doing was because we had a monk and psion or because the dice averaged around an 8.