Goblinworks Blog: I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die


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Discussion thread for new blog entry Goblinworks Blog: I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die.

Goblin Squad Member

Stand and Deliver sounds awesome.

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

Before delving too deep I noticed the date is wrong again. Wed Feb 4th on the blog but it is actually the 6th :)

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Hmmm.. I was originally planning to go LG on my monk, but being a LE Assassin/Bounty Hunter stalking evil players Dexter-style sounds awesome. I should be able to mostly do the same thing and stay good with the Enforcer or Champion flags, but LE just sounds FUN.

Goblin Squad Member

I see something here for everyone! I agree, love the stand and deliver idea. That along with the Traveler bonuses, it seems to me that a Traveling Merchant would be foolish, not to accept a S.A.D. offer. But, if they do resist, than Bandits get to put them to the sword with no reputation penalty.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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Quote:

Killed

The character has recently been killed.

This lasts for ten minutes. If the character is killed again within those ten minutes, the stack increases by one, the duration reset and adds ten minutes, up to a maximum of 100 minutes.
For each stack of Killed, any alignment and reputation benefits from killing the character are decreased by 10%.

Is this correct? I would think it should be any reputation or alignment hits are increased by 10% for each stack of killed to discourage repeat kills.

Goblin Squad Member

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Question on "Stand and Deliver". Who decides the amount? If I was a bandit and wanted to force combat could I ask for 1mil gold. When they don't give it do I then get to "If the victim refuses, the Outlaw gets to carry out his threats of force without losing reputation."? If there is a set amount could a bandit company set a congo line up with every member doing "Stand and Deliver"? Eventually the merchant runs out of gold that bandit kills him and splits loot with rest in congo line.

I like the mechanic but feel it needs to be fleshed out.

Goblinworks Founder

Okay just to get it out there since the spells are in the Pen and Paper game itself and some monsters tend to cast with spell-like abilities or as spells.

What if you were charmed/controlled in some way; does this activate anything if you say the Paladin (we'll use him, since they have the most to lose from killing someone innocent) attacks/kills the cleric while under the Mind Flayer's control?

Well I guess if there's forgiveness from the person dying knowing it wasn't their fault but the ramifications of the attack and killing in general should be observed if any flags would set off for others to take advantage of this particular situation. Especially if these spells are available to Players to use, though I doubt and hope they are not.

Goblin Squad Member

Ludy wrote:

Question on "Stand and Deliver". Who decides the amount? If I was a bandit and wanted to force combat could I ask for 1mil gold. When they don't give it do I then get to "If the victim refuses, the Outlaw gets to carry out his threats of force without losing reputation."? If there is a set amount could a bandit company set a congo line up with every member doing "Stand and Deliver"? Eventually the merchant runs out of gold that bandit kills him and splits loot with rest in congo line.

I like the mechanic but feel it needs to be fleshed out.

It is a trade window mechanic. The Bandit starts with a figure, and the merchant tries to haggle it down.

A bandit may value the double bonus to reputation for accepting a SAD, thus keeping his/her demand reasonable.

The merchant, who is probably already getting the Traveler's Bonus for encumberance, is weighing his or her chance of surviving the attack and losing even more.

It is in fact a negotiation by both parties.

The congo line, may fall within the GMs definition of griefing. There is also the 20 minute timer, where the caravan should be left alone.

Quote:
If the victim and Outlaw completed a stand-and-deliver trade, the Outlaw loses double reputation for killing the target within 20 minutes. (If they pay, you should let them go.)


Wow, loads of info. Thanks for the flag descriptions! Really helps to know more about them.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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Quote:
For each day a player does not lose any law vs. chaos points, they earn law vs. chaos points at a rate that accelerates each day, so the longer they remain lawful the faster they get points. Characters with high law vs. chaos can also give law vs. chaos points from their own pool to more chaotic players to reward lawful behavior the system can't quantify, though the amount is limited.

I'm not sure how enthused I am about the only thing needed to change from Chaotic to Lawful is to do nothing illegal. If you are playing CG by choice and decide to go exploring for a few days or weeks of playtime and don't interact with anyone on a Law vs Chaos scale then I don't think you should find yourself LG simply because you have been isolated.

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

I think this resolves a lot of the issues that people have been bringing up.

I especially love the nod to the *soft* skills with needing to have a good Knowledge skill to know what laws are for other places!!

One concern I have is the statement

Quote:
Reputation goes up by an accelerating rate each day players don't lose reputation for their actions

Is this saying you gain reputation points for doing nothing or the gains you get for actions that effect reputation increase the longer you don't take a reputation hit?

I don't know that gaining reputation for free just from not taking a rep hit makes sense, but I could understand that the amount of reputation you receive increased the longer you did not take a hit to reputation.

The other question is, is that based on not taking a rep hit for in-game time, or just time in general? I would assume in-game time but that is not clear.

As a complete side note this made me smile.

Quote:
Killing is by nature a non-good action, but that does not mean it is not sometimes a necessary action or that all killings are equally punished.

Goblin Squad Member

Quote:
When an Outlaw receives a ransom from stand and deliver, they get reputation up to a daily max.

What I'm getting for this is that it only makes sense to demand one S.A.D. per day, as far as reputation is concerned?

Or does this stack, per instance?

Can we deplete our daily reputation with attacks, then hit max, then deplete again, then finish up the day at max once again?

On another point, like the fact that they built in the Robin Hood scenario, for our Chaotic Good bandits out there.

That will open the doors to many settlements for The UnNamed Company!

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Ludy wrote:

Question on "Stand and Deliver". Who decides the amount? If I was a bandit and wanted to force combat could I ask for 1mil gold. When they don't give it do I then get to "If the victim refuses, the Outlaw gets to carry out his threats of force without losing reputation."? If there is a set amount could a bandit company set a congo line up with every member doing "Stand and Deliver"? Eventually the merchant runs out of gold that bandit kills him and splits loot with rest in congo line.

I like the mechanic but feel it needs to be fleshed out.

It is a trade window mechanic. The Bandit starts with a figure, and the merchant tries to haggle it down.

A bandit may value the double bonus to reputation for accepting a SAD, thus keeping his/her demand reasonable.

The merchant, who is probably already getting the Traveler's Bonus for encumberance, is weighing his or her chance of surviving the attack and losing even more.

It is in fact a negotiation by both parties.

The congo line, may fall within the GMs definition of griefing. There is also the 20 minute timer, where the caravan should be left alone.

Quote:
If the victim and Outlaw completed a stand-and-deliver trade, the Outlaw loses double reputation for killing the target within 20 minutes. (If they pay, you should let them go.)

None of that changes the fact someone could ask for unreasonable amount and force the merchant into non-compliance. Gaining the right to attack with no reputation loss.

Goblinworks Founder

Hmm i was wondering about the reputation gain for doing nothing; sounds like word of mouth from people slowly spreading word about your deeds.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh and Bluddwolf I do like the idea of S.A.D.. This opens up a few more possibilities. It's just if in 10 seconds I figured out that if I could ask for more than the merchant had I get to attack with no rep loss, then more intelligent people might come up with even more interesting ways to game it.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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Ludy wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Ludy wrote:

Question on "Stand and Deliver". Who decides the amount? If I was a bandit and wanted to force combat could I ask for 1mil gold. When they don't give it do I then get to "If the victim refuses, the Outlaw gets to carry out his threats of force without losing reputation."? If there is a set amount could a bandit company set a congo line up with every member doing "Stand and Deliver"? Eventually the merchant runs out of gold that bandit kills him and splits loot with rest in congo line.

I like the mechanic but feel it needs to be fleshed out.

It is a trade window mechanic. The Bandit starts with a figure, and the merchant tries to haggle it down.

A bandit may value the double bonus to reputation for accepting a SAD, thus keeping his/her demand reasonable.

The merchant, who is probably already getting the Traveler's Bonus for encumberance, is weighing his or her chance of surviving the attack and losing even more.

It is in fact a negotiation by both parties.

The congo line, may fall within the GMs definition of griefing. There is also the 20 minute timer, where the caravan should be left alone.

Quote:
If the victim and Outlaw completed a stand-and-deliver trade, the Outlaw loses double reputation for killing the target within 20 minutes. (If they pay, you should let them go.)
None of that changes the fact someone could ask for unreasonable amount and force the merchant into non-compliance. Gaining the right to attack with no reputation loss.

The Stand and Deliver amount could be decided by the game system. Say 10 to 50% of the value of the merchant train, with bonuses to the merchant if they have a good bluff/diplomacy/slight of hand skill to simulate haggling, lying about the value of goods or having a holdout box, and bonuses to the outlaw for a good appraise/intimidation/perception skill to know the value of the goods, squeeze out more money, and find the holdout box.

Goblin Squad Member

Ludy wrote:
None of that changes the fact someone could ask for unreasonable amount and force the merchant into non-compliance. Gaining the right to attack with no reputation loss.

Yes that is true, but banditry is a player interaction that the Devs want to encourage. The economic system is counting on it.

Greedy merchants will learn it is a better business decision to pay the "tax / toll" than to risk it all.

Bandits will see the benefit of not taking a reputation hit, potentially still allowing them access into a larger number of settlements.

It will also give every incentive for bandits to operate outside of the settled hexes. Which also benefits intra-settled hex trade, which will virtually go untouched by bandits, unless a state of war exists.

Goblin Squad Member

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Before I read this I just want to say congrats to Mbando for being the first community member not employed by GW to name a blog.

Goblin Squad Member

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Maybe any accelerations of points can just gravitate to whatever original allignment you chose, rather than heading in one direction.

Goblin Squad Member

Ludy wrote:


None of that changes the fact someone could ask for unreasonable amount and force the merchant into non-compliance. Gaining the right to attack with no reputation loss.

IMO it could be easily solved by some automatic mechanism. For example : Not allowing the bandit to ask more than he would get if he killied the trader. So if he asks too much a message alerts him "the trader has not this amount" or something like that and do not complete the transaction. So he is forced to reduce his demands. What you think?

Goblin Squad Member

And then maybe a limit on how many times he can guess the amount the merchant has.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Ludy wrote:
None of that changes the fact someone could ask for unreasonable amount and force the merchant into non-compliance. Gaining the right to attack with no reputation loss.

Yes that is true, but banditry is a player interaction that the Devs want to encourage. The economic system is counting on it.

Greedy merchants will learn it is a better business decision to pay the "tax / toll" than to risk it all.

Bandits will see the benefit of not taking a reputation hit, potentially still allowing them access into a larger number of settlements.

It will also give every incentive for bandits to operate outside of the settled hexes. Which also benefits intra-settled hex trade, which will virtually go untouched by bandits, unless a state of war exists.

If it can be used to bypass the Reputation mechanism and still kill folks something is wrong.

I do agree that a set value based on a percentage of his goods would be fine. I also feel that if the merchant is forced into the "congo line" I explained above all bandits should be hit with a reputation loss that he paid in last 20min. Think of it more as an incentive for the wolves to protect their easy meal ticket.

This way all the positive points of your posts still hold but someone could not game the system.

Goblin Squad Member

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Overall it is interesting but the heinous tag still worries md. I feel the tag is too harsh.

I feel that this flag just makes it open season on people who want to play necromancers. Yes undead are evil and all that but to have it so you dont have to worry about any consequnces for killing someone seems to target a group of peoples play style unfairly.

Goblin Squad Member

Awesome stuff!
@Lee Hammock it will make more sense to do a −32,768 to 32,767 for scoring the axis's.
There was a bug in UO where one could commit enough evil acts to go below -32,768 and it would roll over to positive 32,767. Future bug squashed :)

Goblin Squad Member

Samrae wrote:
Maybe any accelerations of points can just gravitate to whatever original allignment you chose, rather than heading in one direction.

The idea that doing nothing for several days makes you eventually Lawful Good is rather odd.

It would make more sense and the system would function MUCH better if the automatic movement that occurs is towards true neutral.

Goblin Squad Member

Very interesting. Need to let this simmer in my head for awhile, but my overall first impression is a good one. Good job Goblinworks!

Goblin Squad Member

The thing about asking for an unreasonable amount of gold so you can attack someone for free. I think that that would/should fall squarly into abuse of mechanics and be hit with GM wrath.

Now i do like the idea of it being tied into the amount of goods the merchant has on them. So if the merchant only has 100 gold of goods, the bandit can only ask for 75 gold worth, but if the merchant has 100,000 the bandit can ask for 75,000 worth of goods.

I do think that there should be a mechanism so that the bandit has to guess how much the merchant has. A merchant with a large caravan probably is worth more. You could tie this into various skills, so you need a skill to be able to see how many goods the merchant has, then the appropriate appraisel skills to know how much everything is worth.

A bandit who thinks that 10000 sword is only worth 1000 might only be able to ask for 750 since he does not know the true value. The only thing to look out for is the in game value vs what players will pay for a good.

Goblin Squad Member

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Given that you eventually become lawful good just by doing nothing. Will the following:

Characters with high law vs. chaos can also give law vs. chaos points from their own pool to more chaotic players to reward lawful behavior the system can't quantify, though the amount is limited.

... also work in reverse allowing you to give chaos points?

Otherwise a true neutral druid will be in the odd situation of continually committing crimes just to stay neutral.

Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
Quote:

Killed

The character has recently been killed.

This lasts for ten minutes. If the character is killed again within those ten minutes, the stack increases by one, the duration reset and adds ten minutes, up to a maximum of 100 minutes.
For each stack of Killed, any alignment and reputation benefits from killing the character are decreased by 10%.

Is this correct? I would think it should be any reputation or alignment hits are increased by 10% for each stack of killed to discourage repeat kills.

It's "benefits", not "penalties". It makes sense to reduce the benefits.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Are there going to be bonuses for having the heinous flag for extended periods of time. Seems like most people are rewarded for flagging themselves except for those who use the undead. If you're not going to give an incentive to play a necromancer other than being killed repeatedly why even have the option in the game?

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

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Neadenil Edam wrote:

Given that you eventually become lawful good just by doing nothing. Will the following:

Characters with high law vs. chaos can also give law vs. chaos points from their own pool to more chaotic players to reward lawful behavior the system can't quantify, though the amount is limited.

... also work in reverse allowing you to give chaos points?

Otherwise a true neutral druid will be in the odd situation of continually committing crimes just to stay neutral.

It would make more sense to gain law while standing in a lawful city rather than out in the woods.

Goblin Squad Member

Richter Bones wrote:
Neadenil Edam wrote:

Given that you eventually become lawful good just by doing nothing. Will the following:

Characters with high law vs. chaos can also give law vs. chaos points from their own pool to more chaotic players to reward lawful behavior the system can't quantify, though the amount is limited.

... also work in reverse allowing you to give chaos points?

Otherwise a true neutral druid will be in the odd situation of continually committing crimes just to stay neutral.

It would make more sense to gain law while standing in a lawful city rather than out in the woods.

Agreed.

Actually on second thoughts, I would like to see you move to true neutral in the wilderness however when in a settle begin gravitating towards that settlements alignment (the settlement is "influencing" you).

The current system will make neutral alignments impossible to role play properly.

Goblin Squad Member

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1) Ryan/GW thanks for listening and fleshing out the alignment and reputation aspects of PvP. This makes a lot of sense, and seems to both hew to Pathfinder while also addressing MMO pvp issues. I feel way more gooder about all this.

2) I really like the idea of stacking to Murderer/Brigand/Villian. My biggest concern with the flags as first announced was that ephemeral flags would leave too much wriggle room. Stack flags however are a good way to distinguish between a one-shot choice and a trend.

I'd like to offer a suggestion though: if gaining a flag X times makes you get the stack flag, you'll have players work that by going to X-1 times of the base flag, i.e. 9 heinous acts, 9 crimes, etc. What if instead there was a random chance of getting the stack flag that was tiny at X=1, and relatively high at X=10? So at X=1 the stack flag chance is 1%, by X=5 the stack flag is 15%, and by X=10 the stack flag chance is 70%? (And obviously don't publish the percentages, just that the expectation). Something like that, where as your behavior gets worse, you run more and more risk, but you can't game the risk. You're still disincentivizing certain kinds of behavior, but removing one way of countering that disincentive.

Goblin Squad Member

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First off I love the champion flag. Getting the rep and good aligned bonus points every hour should empower me to do everything I need to do in order to protect others pretty efficiently as long as it is a pretty decent bonus on the rep axis.

Second is getting the murderer/brigand/villain flag 24 hours of in-game time or 24 hours period? If it is in-game time it's great as long is there is some kind of kick-if-afk feature that using macros to avoid results in making the flag permanent at the very least. If it can expires while offline it needs to be extended to a week at minimum... but preferably there just won't be an option that allows you to go on a killing spree without consequence right before you take a break from the game.

Third, not a fan of the "brigand" flag allowing lawful good to kill chaotic good. If as a good champion I go and hunt down chaotic evil murders in a hex that has chosen to grant them amnesty I gain chaotic points as I should. I move along the law-chaos axis but not the good evil axis. If as a lawful-X player I choose to hunt down good vigilantes or someone who has robbed the church of Asmodeous I shouldn't move on the lawful-chaotic axis but that's pretty evil in a "Guards! Seize him!" kind of way. Maybe lower the good-evil penalty for killing good aligned brigands but paladins shouldn't be hunting Robin Hood. Maybe that is just my neutral-good take on the situation but I figured I would throw in out there.

Fourth, heinous actions need to be meaningful to other players. Why attach a PVP flag to PVE actions? Groups like TEO will have little to no interest in dealing with "villians" from a meta-game perspective unless their actions effect other players. But if raising dead has a chance to create an undead infestation in the hex of the crime and surrounding hexes... Using slaves requires capturing them from other settlements spreading fear and creating negative effects for that settlement... Then we won't feel like the "villian" flag is just an excuse to beat up on PVEers and will actually care about it. If you don't do this I would rather just use a war mechanic for RP conflicts.

Fifth, what is the reason for restricting traveler to the neutral axis? You can only have one flag at once so why not let crafters/merchants of alignments be travelers?

Goblin Squad Member

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Imbicatus wrote:
The Stand and Deliver amount could be decided by the game system. Say 10 to 50% of the value of the merchant train, with bonuses to the merchant if they have a good bluff/diplomacy/slight of hand skill to simulate haggling, lying about the value of goods or having a holdout box, and bonuses to the outlaw for a good appraise/intimidation/perception skill to know the value of the goods, squeeze out more money, and find the holdout box.

You are a smart man Imbicatus, I like and agree with this, along with mostly everything else you have said in other posts.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Brady Blankemeyer wrote:

Okay just to get it out there since the spells are in the Pen and Paper game itself and some monsters tend to cast with spell-like abilities or as spells.

What if you were charmed/controlled in some way; does this activate anything if you say the Paladin (we'll use him, since they have the most to lose from killing someone innocent) attacks/kills the cleric while under the Mind Flayer's control?

Well I guess if there's forgiveness from the person dying knowing it wasn't their fault but the ramifications of the attack and killing in general should be observed if any flags would set off for others to take advantage of this particular situation. Especially if these spells are available to Players to use, though I doubt and hope they are not.

I very much doubt that there will be any spell with the effect "Save or watch someone else play your character." The closest to a "You're not playing anymore" effect should be a short duration stun effect.

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:

The idea that doing nothing for several days makes you eventually Lawful Good is rather odd.

It would make more sense and the system would function MUCH better if the automatic movement that occurs is towards true neutral.

Agreed.

"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good to do nothing."

And indeed, the PFRPG states, "Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others."

Paladins should have to work to maintain their alignment. If you're not prepared to make sacrifices, you're not prepared to be a paladin. I'm not saying don't give them huge rewards. Give them smite, give them Holy Avengers. But I am saying they must work for it. And harder than a Lawful Good Fighter.

Evil is it's own reward- you get to loot, kill, steal, mug and have access to slaves and undead. It should be flagged. If you don't want to spend all your time in a dog eat dog world of might makes right, which includes people bigger than you smashing you, or weaker than you ganging up on you, don't play Evil. Avoid tags and flags.

Neutral is where people should end up. You don't steal, you don't donate. If things go south nearby, you don't risk your neck.

Likewise, Law and Chaos. If you want to be Lawful, make the effort. Draw up contracts. Follow through, every time. Be a regular part of social groups. Contribute to your community. Even Lawful Evil make donations that will further their societies. Lawfuls will gain benefits from their societies if they make those sacrifices.

If you want to be Chaotic, adventure alone, travel lots, ignore rules and regulations. Exercise your freedoms and move on before consequences catch you.

Neutral should be the default alignment. If you don't want to be Neutral then you should be working towards a cause.

Goblin Squad Member

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... Bravo! Nice, you have sold me on the whole "long term flag" idea.

Goblin Squad Member

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"Anyone may kill a Heinous character without fearing >>REPUTATION<< or alignment loss."

Wat.

So I'm basically treated the same a a griefer just for using the undead. Necromancy better be GROSSLY OP if this is going to make it into live... -_-

I can understand not suffering alignment loss (toward evil) for killing a necromancer. But not suffering reputation loss? As someone else said, sounds like this unfairly and unnecessarily targets one playstyle.

Goblin Squad Member

Pryllin wrote:
Neadenil Edam wrote:

The idea that doing nothing for several days makes you eventually Lawful Good is rather odd.

It would make more sense and the system would function MUCH better if the automatic movement that occurs is towards true neutral.

Agreed.

"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good to do nothing."

And indeed, the PFRPG states, "Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others."

Paladins should have to work to maintain their alignment. If you're not prepared to make sacrifices, you're not prepared to be a paladin. I'm not saying don't give them huge rewards. Give them smite, give them Holy Avengers. But I am saying they must work for it. And harder than a Lawful Good Fighter.

Evil is it's own reward- you get to loot, kill, steal, mug and have access to slaves and undead. It should be flagged. If you don't want to spend all your time in a dog eat dog world of might makes right, which includes people bigger than you smashing you, or weaker than you ganging up on you, don't play Evil. Avoid tags and flags.

Neutral is where people should end up. You don't steal, you don't donate. If things go south nearby, you don't risk your neck.

Likewise, Law and Chaos. If you want to be Lawful, make the effort. Draw up contracts. Follow through, every time. Be a regular part of social groups. Contribute to your community. Even Lawful Evil make donations that will further their societies. Lawfuls will gain benefits from their societies if they make those sacrifices.

If you want to be Chaotic, adventure alone, travel lots, ignore rules and regulations. Exercise your freedoms and move on before consequences catch you.

Neutral should be the default alignment. If you don't want to be Neutral then you should be working towards a cause.

I generally agree with this, though would now propose ...

1. If in a settlement for several days doing nothing except maybe trade and craft the "influence" of the settlement gradually moves you towards that settlements alignment.

2. If you are randomly wandering the wilderness doing nothing but maybe gather and explore you "go wild" and your alignment gradually moves towards true neutral.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius wrote:


Third, not a fan of the "brigand" flag allowing lawful good to kill chaotic good. If as a good champion I go and hunt down chaotic evil murders in a hex that has chosen to grant them amnesty I gain chaotic points as I should. I move along the law-chaos axis but not the good evil axis. If as a lawful-X player I choose to hunt down good vigilantes or someone who has robbed the church of Asmodeous I shouldn't move on the lawful-chaotic axis but that's pretty evil in a "Guards! Seize him!" kind of way. Maybe lower the good-evil penalty for killing good aligned brigands but paladins shouldn't be hunting Robin Hood. Maybe that is just my neutral-good take on the situation but I figured I would throw in out there.

They stole, you revenged on them. I don't see what their goodness has to do with movement on the lawful axis. As described, if they have a qualifying flag active, you take no penalty for getting involved with them.

Goblin Squad Member

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"Pryllin wrote:
Neutral should be the default alignment. If you don't want to be Neutral then you should be working towards a cause.

Agreed. All characters should default back to True Neutral over time unless they partake in consistent behaviors that push them toward another alignment. Part of what makes paladins awesome is they go out and promote good and justice. They don't just simply not do evil/chaotic actions. A rock doesn't do chaotic or evil things and they aren't lawful good. Inanimate objects are true neutral just like sentient beings that don't do anything aligned to an axis.

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius wrote:

Neutral should be the default alignment. If you don't want to be Neutral then you should be working towards a cause.

Agreed. All characters should default back to True Neutral over time unless they partake in consistent behaviors that push them toward another alignment. Part of what makes paladins awesome is they go out and promote good and justice. They don't just simply not do evil/chaotic actions. A rock doesn't do chaotic or evil things and they aren't lawful good. Inanimate objects are true neutral just like sentient beings that don't do anything aligned to an axis.

I agree with this, too. Maybe a system wherein a lawful character is required to, say, help the guards enforce laws against criminals when crime happens nearby? Or at least quest givers that offer onerous and otherwise-unattractive quests, but which reward you with +law. Or protecting attacked from attacker in the wild. I don't know, there are lots of possibilities for reforming this, but it just doesn't sit right that doing nothing is LG.

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius wrote:

Third, not a fan of the "brigand" flag allowing lawful good to kill chaotic good. If as a good champion I go and hunt down chaotic evil murders in a hex that has chosen to grant them amnesty I gain chaotic points as I should. I move along the law-chaos axis but not the good evil axis. If as a lawful-X player I choose to hunt down good vigilantes or someone who has robbed the church of Asmodeous I shouldn't move on the lawful-chaotic axis but that's pretty evil in a "Guards! Seize him!" kind of way. Maybe lower the good-evil penalty for killing good aligned brigands but paladins shouldn't be hunting Robin Hood. Maybe that is just my neutral-good take on the situation but I figured I would throw in out there.

This one seems a little odd to me also. A Neutral Good kid is starving in the streets after the horrific murder of his parents and steals a loaf of bread (or cons someone out of it) to survive. A 'Good' Paladin/Fighter/Wizard happens to stumble upon him moments later and proceeds to execute him. All good though, no alignment hit for doing that deed.

It seems odd GW plan to equate trying to kill someone with a sword or raising undead to stealing something from someone. All these actions give flags that allow the character to be attacked with impunity even though they're vastly different things.

Other than that issue, everything else looks awesome!

Goblin Squad Member

Lots of cool stuff. Need to ponder on it.

- good call Mbando!
- Love the idea of players able to offer Rep/alig to other players.
- Love stand and deliver, and I hope it stays as much as possible up to the players involved.
- Love the long-term flags, like Champion, Enforcer, etc
- Would like to hear more detail with regard to time-based increases in Rep.

Good stuff


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Chris Lambertz wrote:
Discussion thread for new blog entry Goblinworks Blog: I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die.

The heinius flag needs a little work. I love the idea but I do not think it is fair to be able to kill the pve focused necromancer with no reprocussions if all the do is raise a zombie ro kill npc monsters and never attack other players. Maybe it should be a combination of things that cause the heinous flag? But then again I could be wrong but it does seem to be detrimental to a few players.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Andius wrote:


Third, not a fan of the "brigand" flag allowing lawful good to kill chaotic good. If as a good champion I go and hunt down chaotic evil murders in a hex that has chosen to grant them amnesty I gain chaotic points as I should. I move along the law-chaos axis but not the good evil axis. If as a lawful-X player I choose to hunt down good vigilantes or someone who has robbed the church of Asmodeous I shouldn't move on the lawful-chaotic axis but that's pretty evil in a "Guards! Seize him!" kind of way. Maybe lower the good-evil penalty for killing good aligned brigands but paladins shouldn't be hunting Robin Hood. Maybe that is just my neutral-good take on the situation but I figured I would throw in out there.

They stole, you revenged on them. I don't see what their goodness has to do with movement on the lawful axis. As described, if they have a qualifying flag active, you take no penalty for getting involved with them.

Nothing. I never said it should. I said it should still effect good-evil if you kill a good character who isn't doing something evil.


Elorebaen wrote:

Lots of cool stuff. Need to ponder on it.

- good call Mbando!
- Love the idea of players able to offer Rep/alig to other players.
- Love stand and deliver, and I hope it stays as much as possible up to the players involved.
- Love the long-term flags, like Champion, Enforcer, etc
- Would like to hear more detail with regard to time-based increases in Rep.

Good stuff

the passing of rep reminds me. A lot of Swg smugglers and how they could barter faction rep. It really is a wonderful mechanic.

Those long term flags really are amazing IMHO. Several of my worries have been alleviated.

Goblin Squad Member

Having reputation increase over time for not taking reputation hits, makes sense.

Having alignments move towards lawful make sense.

Having alignments move towards good does not make sense (to me). I think it should tend towards neutral and your actions would sway it to good or evil, and your inaction would allow it to slip to neutral. You should have to work to be good or evil.

"Long-Term Flags
•Each of these flags has an alignment requirement to activate."

Questions:

Am I to understand that I must be the associated alignment in order to activate a long-term flag?

Does keeping that flag active lock (pause/stop) your alinment movement on that scale as long as you wear it? (ex: flagging as outlaw keeps you from slipping towards lawful, but increases your chaotic by successful stand and deliver acts). Or in other words, can I slip towards neutral and when I do so lose my Outlaw flag?

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