Goblin Squad Member
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This may not seem very important to many people, and maybe it's not, but given the dynamic nature of spawns in this game, I'm assuming animals are equally dynamic in where they spawn.
I'd like to take that concept to a little more depth.
I'd like to see relationships between animals built into the spawns. For example: foxes may be drawn towards settlements as they're scavengers, so around towns as well as npc spawns like orcs, I'd like to see an increase in fox spawns in those hexes, but not a drastic one, because they don't like people, so perhaps more would he found in the surrounding, less populated hexes. Rabbits and the like are hunted by foxes too, so rabbit spawns would drop and spread out to less heavily preyed upon hexes.
Wolves would do a similar thing with rabbits, birds, deer etc, driving them from hexes through predation when there's lots of them, driving them away from civilized hexes.
I don't know if your plant spawn will be dynamic too, but if it is they could also influence what animals are found in the hex.
But you get the general idea, a sort of dynamic animal spawn where the pedator/prey/plantlife and settlements all influence the rate and distribution of animal spawn.
Want deer? Head out into the deeper forests. Want pigeons and foxes? Go closer to towns. Are deer getting to scare? Kill off some wolves. That's the broad brushstrokes anyway.
Interesting idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They already mentioned the state of development or wilderness of a Hex will influence the mobs and other properties of the Hex.
But this is good consideration as well, in keeping with eg biomes have certain fawna and flora adapted for that habitat, and various types of mobs spawn in various contexts that make sense eg Orcs in Wilderness and Undead near unholy ruins etc. Generally it's a good way of extending the lore's setting into actively being in game, I think.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it would be an amazing edition. Think about it for people playing Druid archetypes. They could actively strive to keep a balance in the flora and fauna of the hexs they deem under their protection. Deer getting too scarce? Kill/run off the hunters decimating the population :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am kind of just working on the assumption that there will already be some logic to spawns and not just random, you could work in more criteria so that you have a good predator/prey dynamic for all living resources. When playing lots of theme parks, ive always found it silly that you have this massive overpopulation of wolves or boars etc despite the fact they are constantly being killed, and there's no environment if you get my meaning... There's nothing for them to eat, no reason for them to be there, they just are.
I think getting a good balance to the spawn rates and locations is also useful because its something people could learn. If you're seeing lots of deer, that tells you something about the area. If you're seeing lots of scavengers, there's probably a settlement or camp nearby.
If you see no birds at all, you should be worried, there's probably something very nasty nearby.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea, but I probably wouldn't make it a huge priority. Add in normal spawning for wildlife and have someone as an officially endorsed side project work on adjusting the spawn parameters for wildlife to be dependent on more realistic parameters.
I think it would be an amazing edition. Think about it for people playing Druid archetypes. They could actively strive to keep a balance in the flora and fauna of the hexs they deem under their protection. Deer getting too scarce? Kill/run off the hunters decimating the population :)
Deer population gets to high it starts killing off small shrubs and affecting the health of trees and the growth of new trees.
Fix it by bringing in more wolves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also as a related side concept, in the alignment thread being started about balance for Druids, I suggested a balance rating for hexes, swinging between good, neutral and evil and adjusted according to the actions of Druids (so a TN Druid would aim for neutral in hexes, a NG Druid for good alignment for hexes, and NE Druid for evil alignment.
Perhaps that could also influence spawns for the types of creatures, eg more wildlife for neutral, more good aligned things such as unicorns and good aligned fae for good hexes and giant spiders, evil fae for evil hexes. That sort of thing.
But that's a seperate discussion altogether.
I'd agree with that. It's not top priority, but keep in mind it would be an economic resource factor for meat and leather and fur and bone and feather, so it could in fact BECOME important.
Yes, this is what came to mind when I read your post. If say rabbit skins are needed, but the rabbits are being killed by the foxes, well you know what's for supper tonight! Lol
I don't think this sort of thing would require a huge amount of time to code. But I'm not a programmer so...
Very interesting idea. Perhaps it would make Druids sought after by settlements if they have ways of influencing animal populations.
I wonder if players will be able to plant trees and have them grow to become harvestable or even decorative?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope so! But don't expect it. It's possible, but do they want to do it? Lol.
I don't think it would be difficult to do, except to work out the various interactions.
Plants would be an interesting way to alter the fauna too.
I can just imagine someone planting a few poisonous berry bushes amongst an enemy town's food crops, or a few plants that attract aggressive creatures.
Truffles to lure boars? Lol
I hope so! But don't expect it. It's possible, but do they want to do it? Lol.
Archeage has planting different crops and trees as well as raising livestock built into their game. It seems like a really cool feature that would add depth and realism, and fun to crafting, harvesting and trade. Especially if you have to gather seeds to plant and pairs of livestock to start a herd. These things can also be stolen by the way.
Truffles to lure boars? Lol
Haha, the market value of the truffles might be an unlooked for boon to the settlement. Sounds interesting if they take it that far.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was just thinking maybe some plants could act as an animal spawn seed too.
Probably a temporary one, as I think I would include a "if population of this animal reaches this level, reduction in this plant number" so the animals would move on. Once levels are lower, the plant would crop up again and lure the animal back, so you'd end up with a migration.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Much of this can (will?) be approached by simply having spawn chances ("encounter tables") depend on "hex attributes".
ie. Dire bears should spawn in deep forests with low civilization value, and chances increase the longer the hex goes untouched (or as part of a "natural beasts development cycle".
Goblins and npc bandits should spawn near civilization (some civ value), thieves should spawn in urban areas (high civ value), undead should spawn in ruins (destroyed settlements).
When each hex has a terrain type, vegetation rating, civilization rating, alignment rating, age (settlement age/time unsettled) and who knows what more (count for number of player deaths? rating for resources exploited? parameters depending on neighbour hexes?), then there if plenty of room to ensure that monsters and animals are found in logical places.
This will not simulate an ecosystem as such, but will lead to player activity having a real effect on what monsters/animals are found where.
This will not simulate an ecosystem as such, but will lead to player activity having a real effect on what monsters/animals are found where.
If done correctly it could simulate an ecosystem I believe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If done correctly it could simulate an ecosystem I believe.
This will not simulate an ecosystem as such, but will lead to player activity having a real effect on what monsters/animals are found where.
I want to agree with you, and have the beginnings of some thoughts. Would you expand on your conceptual model for us?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nice idea.
You know one of the things I've really noticed between games that just seem drab and fake and real and breathing environment is the presence of wildlife....and wildlife that actualy move and do things....birds, chipmonks, rabbit, foxes, etc.
They make a huge huge difference in how "alive" the game seems to players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The 'thoughts' I mentioned above manifested on the Scenery thread: I'll paste them in here:
... squirrels and other small furry creatures should work ecologically like mobs (such as goblins) would. SFCs (small furry creatures) populate depending on how many there are. Overpopulation can be a problem. This condition would be balanced by various neutral predators like wolves and Lynx, or evil predators like Goblins and Bugbears. Too many predators lead to scarcity in SFCs. Scarcity in SFCs lead to predator migration. Predator migration leads to NPC bounties in settlements and Predator incursions if they still aren't thinned out by player intercession.
Excessive player intercession leads to overpopulation in SFCs. So overpopulation in SFCs should trigger predator population increase depending on environment type plus a random predation table where there are no extant predators.
I want to agree with you, and have the beginnings of some thoughts. Would you expand on your conceptual model for us?If done correctly it could simulate an ecosystem I believe.
This will not simulate an ecosystem as such, but will lead to player activity having a real effect on what monsters/animals are found where.
I was pretty much expanding on this posts information..
Much of this can (will?) be approached by simply having spawn chances ("encounter tables") depend on "hex attributes".
ie. Dire bears should spawn in deep forests with low civilization value, and chances increase the longer the hex goes untouched (or as part of a "natural beasts development cycle".
Goblins and npc bandits should spawn neanr civilization (some civ value), thieves should spawn in urban areas (high civ value), undead should spawn in ruins (destroyed settlements).When each hex has a terrain type, vegetation rating, civilization rating, alignment rating, age (settlement age/time unsettled) and who knows what more (count for number of player deaths? rating for resources exploited? parameters depending on neighbour hexes?), then there if plenty of room to ensure that monsters and animals are found in logical places.
This will not simulate an ecosystem as such, but will lead to player activity having a real effect on what monsters/animals are found where.
Keeping an eye to what's mechanically easy, or at least not too difficult, by adding conditions to the spawn mechanism like this.. If there are XX rabbits in X area, spawn X number of foxes. The foxes should hunt the rabbits, but they shouldn't continually hunt them, otherwise you would end up with no rabbits. To prevent this they could have a fox kill say 2 rabbits, then go rest (sit), or wander around or whatever for a time, then repeat the cycle.
Now lets say some trappers (leather workers) come through and kill all the foxes. Instead of just having foxes repop, the system could spawn X number of wolves to hunt the rabbits. Or perhaps the system could be set up to spawn all of these creatures who hunt each other but not to extinction.
AI has really advanced over the last 10 years. And while I'm no programmer I think this sort of thing is much easier then when Brad created EQ.
Creatures, like GrumpyMel said, go a long way toward making a game feel "alive" to the players. And creatures who act logically, like rabbits eating crops, foxes hunting rabbits, only aid making a game feel more alive. To me there is nothing worse then seeing a deer just standing there, and 10 paces away (right outside the detection zone) is a wolf just standing there. Both waiting for the player to enter their detection zones. It would be so much better (IMO) to have both creatures move around, and when they get close enough, have them see each other and act accordantly ie.. Wolf chases deer, if it catches it then it kills the deer and remains around the corpse for some amount of time before the corpse decays and the wolf resumes its normal routine.
That's what I meant by my post.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The ecology should be as automated as possible. It isn't challenging to see ways these two approaches might work together.
You would probably want to have triggering mechanisms as well as capping mechanisms for areas that are not yet being visited, not only to minimise resources not yet being used but also or else sometime in early beta we might get rather a bigger invasion than we want.
The ecology should be as automated as possible. It isn't challenging to see ways these two approaches might work together.
You would probably want to have triggering mechanisms as well as capping mechanisms for areas that are not yet being visited, not only to minimise resources not yet being used but also or else sometime in early beta we might get rather a bigger invasion than we want.
Yes, no sense in wasting system resources if no one is around to see them. They will need static starting points for each hex. Like what spawns where in regards to NPC's, creatures, resources etc upon reset.
They do need to cap the escalation system so that hexes that are unvisited for a while aren't just packed full of NPC mobs by the time players begin venturing into the hex. Not sure how they will handle having creatures and NPC's, like Goblins or such, coexisting during escalation periods. Hopefully they have worked it out :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe. I just saw the other evening they had a PvE Game Designer position open which I found really tempting but finally decided against, even if they were okay with working remotely. I have a retirement to plan for in five years, and would hate to lose my investment just because I struck gold in the River Kingdoms.
I have grown so dull. In my daring youth I would have chosen in full liberty. Now I am grown meek and mild. Soon I shall double over and hobble along on a cane I am sure. Any moment now.
But if they are posting for a PvE Game designer then they may not have everything all planned out just yet.
And I thought to myself, well, Self: You may be able to contribute to the design even if you are just a crotchety old humbug.
So I gave it a shot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would assume player populations on nearby hexes would be a factor, nothing spawns when there's no players a few hexes away, despawns when no players come near in a while.
I also hope the ai is intelligent enough to make it work well. Eg, when you step withing aggro range of a wolf, or actually just outside it, in TERA it turns towards you and starts growling, watching you as you pass by, if you get closer, it attacks.
But is also like to see ai for groups, wolves should hunt in packs and sort of have a group intelligence... They should try and get behind you while others rush you, attacking one should bring others from the pack running, goblins and stuff should do the same sort of thing, but that's a different topic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In escalation periods where neutral wolves and evil goblins are both present I would expect the escalation to be slowed as the goblins and wolves settled the dominence question between them. Then with dominence established the vicor would likely start wandering as either a pack or a tribe leving a few losers to begin the process anew.
There might also be a potential for SFCs to migrate i the event of overpopulation if the predation in their home hex was insufficient to keep their numbers down. This event might set up a chain reaction situation.
So whoever actually tried to implement the system should be sure to include growth management measures or be prepared for some wild events.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see over populations expand to neighboring hexes rather than just despawn, so that it draws in predators and competition from neighboring hexes, so it's all dynamic and flowing (at least eventually, when settlements spread across the land mean most hexes are being spawned)
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
I also hope the ai is intelligent enough to make it work well. Eg, when you step withing aggro range of a wolf, or actually just outside it, in TERA it turns towards you and starts growling, watching you as you pass by, if you get closer, it attacks.
The AI for overpopulation would be very simple since the server already has to track each creature. You just set threshholds and triggers.
But is also like to see ai for groups, wolves should hunt in packs and sort of have a group intelligence... They should try and get behind you while others rush you, attacking one should bring others from the pack running, goblins and stuff should do the same sort of thing, but that's a different topic.
Group AI would likely be much more advanced than the geometries involved in population growth, but if you already have AI for the individual you should be able to adapt that to guide the NPC group as well. You could even randomly select the personality type (aggressive, cowardly, stealthy, focused). Formation combat metrics should prove very useful for intelligent or Lawful groups once that is available, but chaotic groups would likely be more a collection of individuals as opposed to an organized group, right?
Escalations would rightly be only numbers on the server until it approached a populated hex, or someone approached an overrun hex.I think it is clear that the information of a hex needs to include information in adjascent hexes.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There is a game called Project Zomboid which is a sandbox zombie survival game. One of the really cool things they are doing is coding NPCs to actually continue to interact even when a player is not around, however, the NPCs are despawned and the interactions all carry out in the code instead of taking up all the extra resources afforded a 3D asset.
Would love to see something similar in regards to escalation and the like.
You can read some of the details to get a better explanation here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a game called Project Zomboid which is a sandbox zombie survival game. One of the really cool things they are doing is coding NPCs to actually continue to interact even when a player is not around, however, the NPCs are despawned and the interactions all carry out in the code instead of taking up all the extra resources afforded a 3D asset.
Would love to see something similar in regards to escalation and the like.
You can read some of the details to get a better explanation here.
A simple, yet elegant solution!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Animal population and interaction when players aren't around should be pretty simple. Every (time) run an equation and (animal) population grows based on availability of (food), water, and current population. Run another equation that kills (prey) based on (predator) population. Insufficient food and water results in migration.
I was also going to throw seasons and disease into the mix but I don't know that they are practical in an mmo.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Animal population and interaction when players aren't around should be pretty simple. Every (time) run an equation and (animal) population grows based on availability of (food), water, and current population. Run another equation that kills (prey) based on (predator) population. Insufficient food and water results in migration.
I was also going to throw seasons into the mix but I don't know that seasons are practical in an mmo.
Seasons would be cool but in-game they would last a really long time if they were set to mimic real world seasons.
One if the things Neverwinter Online is touting is their advanced AI. They talk about NPCs working together like if a party encounters some NPCs one might throw down a flask of oil and another would toss a torch into It to set it ablaze.
This sort of thing can be done with creatures, mimicking how they would respond in RL.
To some degree this shouldn't be that difficult.
Yes it would be nice to not have a group of goblins standing 10 feet away minding their own business while they can clearly see you slaughtering their allies.
Exactly
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Goblin Squad Member
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They do need to cap the escalation system so that hexes that are unvisited for a while aren't just packed full of NPC mobs by the time players begin venturing into the hex.Greatly disagree. That'll make exploring a new hex exciting!
Thinking about it, if instead of simply proximity for spawn it is more like higher spawn rates closer to people, you could have some out of the way hex give rise to an Orc settlement that expands and by the time players find it there's a small Orc nation to conquer.
Thinking about it, if instead of simply proximity for spawn it is more like higher spawn rates closer to people, you could have some out of the way hex give rise to an Orc settlement that expands and by the time players find it there's a small Orc nation to conquer.They do need to cap the escalation system so that hexes that are unvisited for a while aren't just packed full of NPC mobs by the time players begin venturing into the hex.Greatly disagree. That'll make exploring a new hex exciting!
That was my thought as well.
A very similar system existed in Ultima Online. Basically, animals' populations would affect eachother (ie. wolves eat rabbits, so if the rabbits become scarce, the wolves must find other sources of food)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was going to say, something I've really missed that was in UO and I havn't seen since was dynamic spawns. It wasn't a static location and it wasn't just one thing. Sometimes oyu'd get bears, sometimes wolves, sometimes a dire wolf, sometimes orcs, sometimes an ettin or ogre, sometimes a band of brigands, sometimes they had a prisoner.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Simplified Ecosystems? Yes please.
Stumbling upon a nation of Orcs? Terrifying, but yes, that would be awesome. (Have fun rallying that army.)
NPCs working together? Excellent idea - particularly if you add in the randomized personality concept, and if that might affect their 'leashing' range. After all, a lazy orc may only chase you to the door - an aggressive orc may well force you to kill him before you can get away. (Different discussion, I know.)
And the idea of running all the numbers without rendering sounds like it would vastly improve the feasibility of such wonderfully layered complexities.
Basically I just love every idea mentioned in this thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would also be nice if, like UO there were multiple skins and weapons used by the same monster. That's another thing that has somewhat depressed me in modern games... Also... why not some preset conditions for humanoid race npcs so that things like NPC brigands can be randomly generated rather than all looking the same.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I absolutely agree - give me a group of five goblins, each with a differently-skinned sword weapon that functions identically and random bits of low-quality armor. Have several skins - some of them missing ears, some with huge burn marks, some with tons of jewellery... et cetera. It would make the whole thing a lot more convincing - plus, then somebody might know what you mean when you cry "Kill the ugly one!"