It happened to me. Yes. But not just me.
I am married to a middle school teacher, I have worked with schools in 3 states in 5 different cities, I know people that work in the administration in 2 colleges, I am friends with instructors in 2 high schools and 2 colleges, I have interviewed job applicants from all over the country for factory floor to experienced engineering positions. For job applicants at at least 3 companies that I have worked for there are standardized test for basic mathematics and reading comprehension. The test have NOT changed for 25 to 30 years. The average scores are decreasing. The average scores are even decreasing for people with a college degree in engineering.
The number of people that can not read and write above a elementary school level or do math above the early grade school level is increasing. The percentage of new college students that have to take remedial courses in mathematics and English increases every year.
Yes, the published test scores are higher, but the tests themselves are easier. That is an intentional tactic by the administrators to make their schools look better so government funding is not cut off. In trying to get the schools to improve, we provided the actual tests taken in the 70's and 80's. Less than 20% of the students who were graduating high school with B's and C's could score above the middle school level.
Many schools across the country are hitting the news because they aren't even trying to teach subjects they are just teaching what is needed to pass the standardized test for their state.
Many of the schools in Fort Wayne, Indiana still couldn't make the necessary levels with easy test and teaching to the test. So they declared almost 20% of the students learning disabled. Because learning disabled students are not included in the aggregate scores for the school. They kept their funding. Very few of the students are really learning disabled, they are just way behind and passed on. I picked that city in that state specifically because I know some of the people involved. I know for a fact they intentionally made they test easier when the students couldn't answer enough of the questions to look good. My kids were in the schools when over the summer when the government regulations changed and the number of learning disabled students tripled. I personally know for a fact that it happened there. But I have talked to people battling the same type of occurrences all across the country.
Now I will say I believe there is better education available. If a student is pushed by his parents or pushes him/herself, they can get a better education in the standard curriculum than was possible 30 years ago. Many high schools have advanced classes in biology, physics, calculus, chemistry, even electrical engineering. But students are actually discouraged from taking those courses because they will not help on the standardized test and their GPA will probably go down since they won't get an easy A.
The Flynn Effect is interesting but is actually not relevant to this discussion. Even if you believe IQ test really do what they are supposed to do (which I am not sure whether I believe or not), they do not measure education. IQ test are supposed to measure the persons capacity to learn not whether they have actually learned. I could probably be fairly easily convinced that people are better able to learn than in the 1800's. But that does not do much good if there is no incentive to actually learn.
No I am not going to provide links to a bunch of state and school sponsored data. I know the people putting the data up on several of those sites and it is deliberately misleading.
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For job applicants at at least 3 companies that I have worked for there are standardized test for basic mathematics and reading comprehension. The test have NOT changed for 25 to 30 years. The average scores are decreasing. The average scores are even decreasing for people with a college degree in engineering.
Possibly because the tests stress skills that are not being stressed in education anymore.
The number of people that can not read and write above a elementary school level or do math above the early grade school level is increasing. The percentage of new college students that have to take remedial courses in mathematics and English increases every year.
Even IF you have a statistically significant sample to pick from, you at best have
The number of people that can not read and write above a elementary school level or do math above the early grade school level that are applying to/getting into college is increasing.
This really shouldn't be a surprise, because there are fewer and fewer options for the barely coherent amoung us to have any gainful employment without that college degree. It may not be that people are getting dumber its that even the dumber people need to stay in school longer.
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For job applicants at at least 3 companies that I have worked for there are standardized test for basic mathematics and reading comprehension. The test have NOT changed for 25 to 30 years. The average scores are decreasing. The average scores are even decreasing for people with a college degree in engineering.Possibly because the tests stress skills that are not being stressed in education anymore.
The number of people that can not read and write above a elementary school level or do math above the early grade school level is increasing. The percentage of new college students that have to take remedial courses in mathematics and English increases every year.Even IF you have a statistically significant sample to pick from, you at best have
The number of people that can not read and write above a elementary school level or do math above the early grade school level that are applying to/getting into college is increasing.
This really shouldn't be a surprise, because there are fewer and fewer options for the barely coherent amoung us to have any gainful employment without that college degree. It may not be that people are getting dumber its that even the dumber people need to stay in school longer.
Well said. Your anecdote < Peer reviewed evidence.
Coincidentally I am also married to a middle school teacher. And I am a Juvenile Probation officer. Since you seem to think such things are relevant to the discussion.
On to actual facts and numbers, I can tell you Juvenile crime is way, way down and graduation requirements are way, way up. School districts that 20 years ago only required "business math" classes are now requiring Algebra II to graduate with full certification.
Your company not getting as qualified applicants and you have in the past means your company isn't getting as qualified applicants as you have in the past. Maybe you don't pay enough, maybe the world isn't prestigious enough, I have no idea because your data hasn't been peer reviewed or analyzed.
This has.
In the past kids simply didn't attend school. The 20% they declared disabled would have not been in class at all before to take the test.
If you don't have any actual citations beyond anecdotes, actual evidence, than what you say is just how you feel. Truthiness.
... Possibly because the tests stress skills that are not being stressed in education anymore ...
That is actually my point. The tests are basic reading comprehension and basic math skills (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, percent, fractions, etc...). Students are not being taught the basic skills of how to read basic English, write in an understandable manner, and perfore basic mathematics.
... Even IF you have a statistically significant sample to pick from,...
I am absolutely aware that it is not statistically significant sample. However, long before you get to statistically significant, you get trend indications.
... you at best have The number of people that can not read and write above a elementary school level or do math above the early grade school level that are applying to/getting into college is increasing ...
That would make sense if the average enrollment numbers were increasing. Last I heard (though I will admit I haven't checked recently) average enrollment is down. Blamed primarily on lack of funds for financial aid.
... This really shouldn't be a surprise, because there are fewer and fewer options for the barely coherent amoung us to have any gainful employment without that college degree. It may not be that people are getting dumber its that even the dumber people need to stay in school longer.
I actually don't think people are getting dumber, but I do think the average quality of the education absorbed is lower.
... Well said. Your anecdote < Peer reviewed evidence ...
Doesn't really fit the definition of anecdote. But yes, you are correct I do not have peer reviewed data. But neither do you.
... Coincidentally I am also married to a middle school teacher. And I am a Juvenile Probation officer. Since you seem to think such things are relevant to the discussion ...
I mentioned because you implied it was only my experience. But I also do think your and my careers and experiences are relevelant. I know or have worked with a large number of people in the education industry or that are involved with evaluating (for employment) people just coming out of the education system. I know of only 2 people that think the education received in high school is an improvement over several decades ago.
... On to actual facts and numbers, I can tell you Juvenile crime is way, way down and graduation requirements are way, way up. School districts that 20 years ago only required "business math" classes are now requiring Algebra II to graduate with full certification ...
I think it is great that juvenile crime is way, way down. But I'm not really sure what that says about the quality of the education received.
I am not sure what you mean by 'graduation requirements' are way, way up. If you mean they have to get a passing grade in more classes that have a higher level sounding name, then yes.
Most require a foreign language. But the students will still get a C even if they can neither speak nor understand any of it.
As of 2 and 4 years ago none of the schools we checked when we were moving required Algebra II. Most did require Algebra I. However, if you actually look at the text books and compare the material taught. The Algebra I class is significantly less advanced than the business math it replaced.
... Your company not getting as qualified applicants and you have in the past means your company isn't getting as qualified applicants as you have in the past. Maybe you don't pay enough, maybe the world isn't prestigious enough ...
Again quite believable if it were just me or just one company. And one of those 3 companies did not pay competitively. The company I'm at is actually paying over the regional norm just to try and attract qualified workers. Our pay rate is high enough that we are getting college gradutes quiting professional technical positions to become line opertors here. However, it is not just me or just the 3 companies of which I spoke. Go to industrial seminars across the country. It is a common topic of discussion. Can't find people that can read simple written directions to do their jobs. Can't find people that can check the length on 1/4 of the parts they made. Can't tell the difference if the part was weighed on the kilogram or pound scale.
... I have no idea because your data hasn't been peer reviewed or analyzed
This has.
In the past kids simply didn't attend school ...
A factoid is not the same as peer reviewed and analyzed data. However, I never denied more kids are attending school. That was not a number that it ever occured to me to check. If true, it is at least a start to improving the situation.
... The 20% they declared disabled would have not been in class at all before to take the test ...
Yes, they were in the school. The gov changed the regs such that they had to have a cerain percentage passing or they would lose funding. Magically overnight, nearly every student was at a C average. Then the gov changed the law such that if the district didn't score high enough on the standardized test they would lose funding. The tests were made easier for 3 years in a row. Test scores kept falling. Just before the deadline when they would have lost funding. All those students (who are still getting minimum of C's in their classes) were evaluted as learning disabled. Based on their test scores. Therefore not include in the totals.
... If you don't have any actual citations beyond anecdotes, actual evidence, than what you say is just how you feel. Truthiness ...
Citations and statistics are no more proof than the data behind them. Data is very easy to manipulate to say whatever you want. Try an analysis of the recent political campaigns.
I actually do have evidence. I have second order evidence. I have spoken with the people involved in modifying and adminstering the tests and evaluating the results. That is a closer order than your evidence.
What I don't have is pervasive nationwide evidence. I admit that. You do, but neither of your 2 items of evidence speak to the quality of the education received.
Again, it is not just how I feel. It is a common opinion (yes I said opinion) from all over the country in most industries.
But it is nearly impossible for the sides on a debate like this to be anything other than opinion. All of so called 'hard' data supplied by both sides has been provided by institutions or individuals with a financial reason for their side to be 'right.'
... Also you are just wrong about advanced classes, as most areas put those classes on a modified GPA system where more challenging classes are on 5 point rather than a 4 point scale.
There is a specific incentive to take those classes in order to get above 4.0 GPA ...
They may use a modified scale in 'most areas.' I don't know. It was never mentioned.
But I do know that was the reason given to my son when they tried to talk him out of talking the higher level course. It won't help you pass the Istep and it could hurt your GPA if you don't get an A.Again, it is not just my experience. Many teachers in several schools have told me that students are discouraged from taking the advanced classes. Not just the students likely to not do well in the classes. All the students. They are only in those classes if the students and/or the parents force the issue.
Like I said. It is good that those classes are available. I wish more of them had been in place when I was in school. I do think there are extremely intelligent teachers in the system. And I think that if the students push for it there is a great education available.
But the bare minimum standard has dropped.
There's a lot of argument that students aren't ready for college or the workforce. I don't know how much that has changed over time, but I'm willing to bet that it has declined. I don't think it's declined because students are getting dumber. I think it's declined because education hasn't kept up with what is needed.
For information on how students are doing nationwide:
http://media.act.org/documents/CCCR12-NationalReadinessRpt.pdf
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/24/high-school-grads-reading-s kills-hit-new-low-most-/?page=all
... It's also very hard to remember where you were compared to your peers all those years ago. It's even harder to remember exactly what level your skills were at younger ages. If there wasn't a specific point where you learned a skill, it's easy to project your current skill level back further than it really went ...
Agreed. Before we started complaing to the schools and boards too much, we went and got some of the old text books from the library. They are still available. We made a point of getting to know and talk to as many teachers and business people as we could reasonable manage.
The first versions of the standardized tests are a matter of public record. Most teachers would tell us they are not allowed to give failing grades.There isn't really a concerted effort to hide anything, because most parents don't care. Did my child get a diploma? Yes, then I don't care. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
And do you have any evidence to support this thought you are having...
I have both first hand and second hand evidence. I have seen it. I have talked to the people that are directly involved.
... Every generation thinks the current generation is worse.
Of course, every generation forgets how dumb they were when they were kids.
Actually no. I don't think this generation is worse or dumber. I think their ability to assimilate information is actually very high. Their computer skills are way beyond mine. I think the capability to recognize patterns and extrapolate from them is on the rise.
Those actually are good things that I would attribute at least partially to the time spent learning and playing computer games. Many of those games have very limited instruction sets that require the gamers to understand the system and react to the gaming environment with very small clues.
I think we as adults are failing them. We are telling them that the ability to read, write, otherwise communicate, and do basic mathematics is not important. They graduate from high school and go to college, training, or try to get a job. Then they find that the lack of those skills is prohibiting them from succeeding.
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@ Kydeem de'Morcaine Actually, I posted a peer reviewed study saying IQ is up.
And by graduation requirements I mean requirements for graduation, specifically higher math requirements and standardized tests.
It was actually easier to force kids through when you didn't need Algebra to graduate.
Produce stats, not feelings like...
@Bob_Loblaw
This is useful, you should also note more students are taking the test (pg 12). In 2008 it was 43%, now it is 52%. So the students who never tried to go to college are now entering the testing mix.
Despite this, if you look at the numbers on the ACT one you posted, they went up over the last 4 years. (Pg 2)
Direct quote "Test scores remained essentially the same between 2008 and
2012 even though about 17% more high school students took the ACT over this period and the tested population of students became more diverse."
So that article helps prove my argument, at least in the short run of the last 4 years.
No offense, I'm not going to bother reading the moonie-times article, but if there is something in there I should check, let me know.
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And do you have any evidence to support this thought you are having...I have both first hand and second hand evidence. I have seen it. I have talked to the people that are directly involved.
If you think your personal anecdote is the same as a peer reviewed study, it isn't surprising your company isn't getting quality applicants.
Kids have always been naive entering the workplace. That is why they are entering the workplace.
The Washington Times references SAT scores and how they have changed slightly over 5 years.
I only posted them because they give a current frame of reference. I didn't bother to look back 10 years or more, which I think it more relevant than 4 years.
See, I've been saying this for a long time. Though I'm not sure I think people are becoming more "intelligent" per se, as more flexible and more savvy. Kids are exposed to more technology and to more sophisticated forms of expression at earlier ages, so it stands to reason.
I also believe some animals who live with us are becoming smarter. Most notably, cats. Not only are we breeding them for intelligence, but they also seem to be adapting to the environment we present to them more and more easily.
That is actually my point. The tests are basic reading comprehension
With language that is 30 years out of date if you haven't changed the test. I know when i read a textbook that old I get some convoluted sentence structures that throw me off and that people don't use anymore.
Someone 30 years ago likely had an entire lifetime of schooling getting very similar questions, while someone taking the test now has learned on slightly different, subtle differences in the test questions.
and basic math skills (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, percent, fractions, etc...).
Students don't spend as much time on this anymore. They can do it, just not as well. There is less point in drilling these skills into someones head because someone doing it is going to use a calculator or a spread sheet. Whereas 30 years ago someone would spend their entire math career doing these problems over and over .. then ending it, math teachers today are getting kids to the point that they can do it (but not as well as their parents/grand parents)... and then moving on to some advanced mathematics that their parents can't do at all.
Students are not being taught the basic skills of how to read basic English, write in an understandable manner
Its not as stressed anymore because there's other things to learn.
That would make sense if the average enrollment numbers were increasing. Last I heard (though I will admit I haven't checked recently) average enrollment is down. Blamed primarily on lack of funds for financial aid.
Between 2000 and 2010, the number of 18- to 24-year-olds increased from 27.3 million to 30.7 million, an increase of 12 percent, and the percentage of 18- to 24-year-olds enrolled in college rose from 35 percent in 2000 to 41 percent in 2010.
Now, unless there is enormous some pool of really bright people that were skipping college, that 6% uptick is probably not coming from the cream of the crop.
I actually don't think people are getting dumber, but I do think the average quality of the education absorbed is lower.
I don't think its fair to come to that conclusion based on two areas of comparison without looking at the rest of them. I mean if you do a computer programming class doesn't it make sense that that extra knowledge has to come at the expense of something else, like another 40 hours of math practice or another round of Shakespeare?
Another huge factor I should mention is that as far as essays go, the tests are horribly subjective. If you contest this i can probably find studies to back it, but three of the things that will get you a better grade are length, spelling, and penmanship. A student who's done all of his papers on MS word is going to be lacking in all three compared to the geezer who cranked his out with a goose feather dipped in ink or whatever you used :) Spending hours trying to memorize how you spell hippopotomas rightly looses some importance when you can click on the red line... like the one there now...
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The true test of intelligence is the capacity of the children to teach themselves. Lets sack all teachers and pour their wages into public libraries willed with real knowledge instead of fiction.
So the more who teach themselves will be the determining factor for whether a civilization has a future.
@ Kydeem de'Morcaine Actually, I posted a peer reviewed study saying IQ is up. ...
IQ is intended to be a measure of capacity to learn not quality of education absorbed. Sorry, you do have a peer review data point. But it does not directly address the topic of discussion.
Unless you are changing the subject since it was continued from the prior thread.
If all you wanting to discuss is the intelligence of the population and not the quality of the education, then yes I agree. People may very have a higher capacity to learn than prior generations. But that does not actually mean they are learning more just that they could.
… And by graduation requirements I mean requirements for graduation, specifically higher math requirements and standardized tests.
It was actually easier to force kids through when you didn't need Algebra to graduate. ...
Yes, the name of the class sounds like it is a higher level requirement. The actual content and actions required to get a passing grade in the classes are lower.
Yes, standardized test were introduced a number of years ago. That was a good thing.The difficulty of the tests has been on a steady decline ever since. That is not good.
… Produce stats, not feelings like ...
The published stats on the subject are inconclusive at best or more likely meaningless. Since the data they are based on is biased. Both sides used poor methods and analysis because they have an ‘axe to grind’ on the subject. It is actually very easy to slant surveys, investigations, and data to support the result you expected before you started. It is actually very difficult to perform an unbiased investigation. The few reports where the underlying investigation is available it doesn’t look like either side made a significant effort to do so.
… If you think your personal anecdote is the same as a peer reviewed study, it isn't surprising your company isn't getting quality applicants. ...
Personal insults are neither helpful nor necessary. Your peer reviewed study is disagreed with on many of the peer reviews and does not actually apply to the quality of education.
First and second hand observations are not the same as anecdotes. I and many others have examined the class text books used over several decades. I and many others have compared at least the 5 versions of the standardized test to which I have been able to get access. I have worked with the panels that review and approve the text books. I and many others have been to the school board meetings where the topics were debated. I and many others have talked to the teachers and administrators that have implemented the policies. I and many others have been involved with evaluating the individuals coming out of this system. That is not anecdotes. That is investigation.
Accepting the one sided claims of test scores are up and graduation requirements are higher without investigation is much less rigorous and scientific than actually investigating the claim and what it is based upon.
My company is not the only one having problems with the applicants basic skills.
… Kids have always been naive entering the workplace. That is why they are entering the workplace. ...
Agreed and irrelevant. That has nothing to do with why students are being pushed through the system without basic necessary skills.
… With language that is 30 years out of date if you haven't changed the test. I know when i read a textbook that old I get some convoluted sentence structures that throw me off and that people don't use anymore
Someone 30 years ago likely had an entire lifetime of schooling getting very similar questions, while someone taking the test now has learned on slightly different, subtle differences in the test questions. …
That is a legitimate concern and has been brought up. It may very well be valid. In my opinion (yes this is my opinion which is still not the same as an anecdote) the passages are not long enough or complex enough that sentence structure is the primary problem. The people seem unable to read and know the meanings of fairly basic words and sentences.
I will bring it up to the HR folks again.… Quote:
and basic math skills (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, percent, fractions, etc...).
Students don't spend as much time on this anymore. They can do it, just not as well. There is less point in drilling these skills into someones head because someone doing it is going to use a calculator or a spread sheet. Whereas 30 years ago someone would spend their entire math career doing these problems over and over .. then ending it, math teachers today are getting kids to the point that they can do it (but not as well as their parents/grand parents)... and then moving on to some advanced mathematics that their parents can't do at all. …
I would agree if they had the basics down. People on the shop floor do not usually have a calculator, spreadsheet, or online dictionary available or the time to use one if it was. I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect that a high school graduate can tell what is ½, ¼, or 1/10 of a given number of parts. To be able to tell if 13.7 mm is between 12.75 mm and 14.15 mm. And even if you do have a calculator, you still have to know what buttons to push.
Moving onto the advanced mathematics without being able to perform the basics then being passed without regard to performance is not an improvement. How can one be expected to solve a polynomial when lacking the ability to solve a simple fraction? Why give a passing grade when the student can do neither?
… Quote:
Students are not being taught the basic skills of how to read basic English, write in an understandable manner
Its not as stressed anymore because there's other things to learn. …
Again I would agree if they had the basics. If they can not read the work instructions? They can not do the job. If they can not leave a readable memo, note, or email from off shift? They can not do the job.
… Quote:
That would make sense if the average enrollment numbers were increasing. Last I heard (though I will admit I haven't checked recently) average enrollment is down. Blamed primarily on lack of funds for financial aid.
Between 2000 and 2010, the number of 18- to 24-year-olds increased from 27.3 million to 30.7 million, an increase of 12 percent, and the percentage of 18- to 24-year-olds enrolled in college rose from 35 percent in 2000 to 41 percent in 2010.
Linky
Now, unless there is enormous some pool of really bright people that were skipping college, that 6% uptick is probably not coming from the cream of the crop. …
That is good news. It wasn’t what I remembered. Glad to be wrong about that.
… Quote:
I actually don't think people are getting dumber, but I do think the average quality of the education absorbed is lower.
I don't think its fair to come to that conclusion based on two areas of comparison without looking at the rest of them. I mean if you do a computer programming class doesn't it make sense that that extra knowledge has to come at the expense of something else, like another 40 hours of math practice or another round of Shakespeare?
Another huge factor I should mention is that as far as essays go, the tests are horribly subjective. If you contest this i can probably find studies to back it, but three of the things that will get you a better grade are length, spelling, and penmanship. A student who's done all of his papers on MS word is going to be lacking in all three compared to the geezer who cranked his out with a goose feather dipped in ink or whatever you used :) Spending hours trying to memorize how you spell hippopotomas rightly looses some importance when you can click on the red line... like the one there now...
Except those are the 2 areas upon which all the others are based. How can you be considered a great programmer if you can’t read the customer program requirements?
Yes, less time is needed to study Shakespeare. I can be convinced that cursive writing is a waste of time. Diagramming sentences serves no purpose. Perfect spelling of odd and rarely used words is no longer as advantageous as it used to be. I don’t think phys ed is really the responsibility or the school system rather than the family. Etc…But the basics of two way written communication and basic math is not obsolete.
Yes, essay question are horribly subjective and imprecise. I have never heard of a good replacement or correction for them. If you have, I would be glad to hear about it.
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The Washington Times references SAT scores and how they have changed slightly over 5 years.
I only posted them because they give a current frame of reference. I didn't bother to look back 10 years or more, which I think it more relevant than 4 years.
They can't reliably go back further because the SAT has changed significantly over the last 20 years, including significant changes on what is on the test. The SAT we took (or at least the one I took) is nothing like the current one. They aren't even scored on the same level.
And again, as I stated refering to the ACT, more people as a percentage of the total population started taking the test. I can't access the numbers from this computer for some reason, but I wouldn't be surprised if it has doubled as a percentage of kids taking it over the last 20 years.
The Raven Logic IQ Test for pattern recognition
Interesting.
Kydeem, there is so much wrong with so many of your statements its pretty much impossible to know where to start arguing against you. But perhaps if you wanted to actually have a useful discussion, you shouldn't start by dissmissing evert scientific article because statistics are fudgible. If you start with that basis, there is absolutely no argument that can change your mind.
People on the shop floor do not usually have a calculator, spreadsheet, or online dictionary available or the time to use one if it was.
Every shop I have ever seen has had a calculator at every station and a few computers throughout the room (schedualing, organizing orders, getting work instructions, controlling equipment), not including any in people's pockets attached to their phones that have a significant likelyhood of having internet access. Not to mention every technician or craftsman I have every met has carried a calculator in his pocket or toolbelt or had one magnatized to his toolbox. I've had 50 year old technicians tell me they use a calculator to check every calculation they make. Annectdotal only, but I find it really hard to assume that they will not have access to a calculator if they need it.
Again I would agree if they had the basics. If they can not read the work instructions? They can not do the job. If they can not leave a readable memo, note, or email from off shift? They can not do the job.
Once again you will have to show that this is actually a statistically valid sample size and not mere annectdotal evidence. Something you have failed to do with every single one of your claims.
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The Raven Logic IQ Test for pattern recognition
Answered a bunch of questions and then they ask for $20... is this a test to see if you're dumb enough to give money to strangers on the interwebs? Or will I actually get a response?
Kydeem, there is so much wrong with so many of your statements its pretty much impossible to know where to start arguing against you. But perhaps if you wanted to actually have a useful discussion, you shouldn't start by dissmissing evert scientific article because statistics are fudgible. If you start with that basis, there is absolutely no argument that can change your mind ...
Sorry if it sounded like I was dismissing every scientific article. My only defense if it sounded like that is that ciretose's insults were pissing me off.
I have been able to find no scientific articles on the subject of education quality. And yes, I have looked. What I have been able to find are published results put out by one side of the argument or the other. Normally, the actual study is not available. Only for 3 of them was the study available. Those 3 were clearly slanted and biased to produce the desired result.If you have seen studies that can be reviewed to show they are at least not very biased, I would love to see them.
...People on the shop floor do not usually have a calculator, spreadsheet, or online dictionary available or the time to use one if it was.Every shop I have ever seen has had a calculator at every station and a few computers throughout the room ...I find it really hard to assume that they will not have access to a calculator if they need it ...
Defense, aerospace, and automotive companies are so worried about industrial espionage that most people are not allowed to bring in electronics. Especially not phones or anything else that can store electronic or photographic information. Yes, the technicians have calculators. There is a computer in each large work area. But it is not considered acceptable to stop work to walk across the room or call a technician over to figure out 1/4 of the 32 piece order.
Yes, many other industries allow the workers to carry electronics. They still have to know which buttons to push. They still have to be able to tell the difference in the scale used. They still have to be able to tell if a decimal is between two other decimals.High school students can get a passing grade without being able to do any of those.
... Once again you will have to show that this is actually a statistically valid sample size and not mere annectdotal evidence. Something you have failed to do with every single one of your claims.
I never claimed it was a statistically valid sample size. I specifically said it was not. No one person can encounter let alone evaluate enough people for it to be a statistically valid sample size for the United States. However, it is not just me. It is not just anecdotes. Again, direct observation and investigation is not the same thing as anecdotes.
I am not going to scan in the school text books and email them to you. But you can go to the library and get them yourself. You can get the different versions of the standardized test. You can talk to the teachers that are upset because they are forced to pass students who have not learned the work. I have, but I'm not the only one.
If you are unwilling to look into it, listen to the news.
It made national news that schools across the country are teaching to the standardized test not the course material. They were not even trying to hide it, they felt the current rules and regulations made it necessary.
Industry leaders, CEO's, managers of large companies have been in the news proclaiming the fact that students with C grades in high school can not read well enough to do their jobs.
Administrators fom colleges all over the country have gone on record publicly telling school boards that they are passing more and more students who do not have the bare minimum skills to attend college.
I would agree if they had the basics down. People on the shop floor do not usually have a calculator, spreadsheet, or online dictionary available or the time to use one if it was. I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect that a high school graduate can tell what is ½, ¼, or 1/10 of a given number of parts. To be able to tell if 13.7 mm is between 12.75 mm and 14.15 mm. And even if you do have a calculator, you still have to know what buttons to push.
This sounds like a lot of old man "kids these days..." complaints, which i think I've shown has been going on since the dawn of time.
Moving onto the advanced mathematics without being able to perform the basics then being passed without regard to performance is not an improvement. How can one be expected to solve a polynomial when lacking the ability to solve a simple fraction? Why give a passing grade when the student can do neither?
Because its entirely possible to get the right number without gaining any concept of the underlying thought. You simply learn to do it by wrote, and as soon as the test is over you don't remember it. This started to happen to me around statistics III when the formula's lost any connection to reality.
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Again I would agree if they had the basics. If they can not read the work instructions? They can not do the job. If they can not leave a readable memo, note, or email from off shift? They can not do the job.
You don't learn to read work instructions in school. You learn to read books, novels, plays etc and look for subtext, hidden meanings, irony etc etc. I can't remember a test in school that would ever be applicable to a cookbook or insert tab A into tab B type situation.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
That is good news. It wasn’t what I remembered. Glad to be wrong about that.
Yay!
No pause to consider what it does to the argument by the college profs that the kids are getting dumber. Dummies that 20 years ago had to choose between college or a moderately well paying position sometimes chose the latter. Without that choice more of them are going to college.
Yes, less time is needed to study Shakespeare. I can be convinced that cursive writing is a waste of time. Diagramming sentences serves no purpose. Perfect spelling of odd and rarely used words is no longer as advantageous as it used to be. I don’t think phys ed is really the responsibility or the school system rather than the family. Etc…
Like any large bureaucracy, our educational system takes time to adjust to the present, much less the future. I mean our entire electoral system is based on the time it takes for a a horse to get from south carolina to new york city.
But the basics of two way written communication and basic math is not obsolete.
I cannot recall ever getting a class in two way written communication. Everything has always been one way: either a paper i wrote or a book i read. I don't think that's a sign of the changing times so much as a discrepancy between what the school thinks it needs to teach and what you want your employees to know.
Yes, essay question are horribly subjective and imprecise. I have never heard of a good replacement or correction for them. If you have, I would be glad to hear about it.
You can't replace them, but you should be aware of the perils of comparing things with an aesthetic bias.
...People on the shop floor do not usually have a calculator, spreadsheet, or online dictionary available or the time to use one if it was.Every shop I have ever seen has had a calculator at every station and a few computers throughout the room ...I find it really hard to assume that they will not have access to a calculator if they need it ...Defense, aerospace, and automotive companies are so worried about industrial espionage that most people are not allowed to bring in electronics. Especially not phones or anything else that can store electronic or photographic information. Yes, the technicians have calculators. There is a computer in each large work area. But it is not considered acceptable to stop work to walk across the room or call a technician over to figure out 1/4 of the 32 piece order.
Yes, many other industries allow the workers to carry electronics. They still have to know which buttons to push. They still have to be able to tell the difference in the scale used. They still have to be able to tell if a decimal is between two other decimals.
High school students can get a passing grade without being able to do any of those.
At any of the factories I have seen in those sectors, workers were expected to be filling out reports on the computers between every part and every time they were changing what they were working on going to the computer to adjust their time charging. Some things were kept on paper, but almost everything had to go into the computer for quality purposes. Any memos or reports they would write would be emails or online forms.
I agree with you that students need to be able to do those things. But I don't see students who aren't able to do them any more now than 10 years ago when I graduated, and I know plenty of older people who still can't do those things.
As for your complaints about 2-way communication, all I can say is that I know managers with 50 years experience who have the exact same problem. My current manager is in her late 40s and routinely uses "u" "r" and similar casual abrieviations in her emails to me, with most text in pinks or purples. My mom has complained to me about getting similar messages from high level managers in appointed positions at the State Health Department, some of whom are at retiring age. Its not limited to the young.
... This sounds like a lot of old man "kids these days..." complaints, which i think I've shown has been going on since the dawn of time ...
There is probably some of that involved. But I do try to look for and reduce that in my thoughts and statements. Also, my primary complaint is not directly about the kids themselves. It is about the education system that we as adults are putting them through.
... Because its entirely possible to get the right number without gaining any concept of the underlying thought. You simply learn to do it by wrote, and as soon as the test is over you don't remember it. This started to happen to me around statistics III when the formula's lost any connection to reality. ...
Agreed. That is what most people talk about when they say the basics of mathematics. IF they have those basics they should get a passing grade in that basic mathematics course. Then they can move on to the next level course.
... You don't learn to read work instructions in school. You learn to read books, novels, plays etc and look for subtext, hidden meanings, irony etc etc. I can't remember a test in school that would ever be applicable to a cookbook or insert tab A into tab B type situation ...
No, I never had any classes like that either. (Though it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if there were classes that did exactly that.) But I think most any student in the 70's or 80's had to be able to read a simple English sentence or phrase and understand what it meant. If they could not they did not get a C in the course.
... Yay!
No pause to consider what it does to the argument by the college profs that the kids are getting dumber. Dummies that 20 years ago had to choose between college or a moderately well paying position sometimes chose the latter. Without that choice more of them are going to college. ...
Yes, I am doing exactly that. I am pausing to consider what that means and how it can be interpreted. I am not going to give a half-ashed rebuttal or immediate blind acceptance of everything. I suppose first I need to see if the people I know in college admin can tell me if the increases in remedial students is greater or less than the increase in the general student population. But I agree, it is a positive indicator.
... I cannot recall ever getting a class in two way written communication. Everything has always been one way: either a paper i wrote or a book i read. ...
Ok, I suppose a more accurate term would have been communication in both directions rather than two way communication training. They should be able to read simple instructions, memos, schedules, etc… They should be able write (either on paper or in an email) what they did or what questions they have in an understandable manner.
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I think you also have to factor in the communication gap may be as much generational as it is the actual information.
I deal with the very old (judges) and the very young (kids I work with) and I find just as much of a challenge communicating actual information to each.
And of course, acting as the translator.
Why I am picking on you is it seems like you aren't evaluating kids, but rather kids ability to conform to the standards you have grown up with and set in place.
I am far more frustrated when I have to meet in person or telephone someone who isn't "comfortable with e-mail" than I am with lol speak.
There is probably some of that involved. But I do try to look for and reduce that in my thoughts and statements. Also, my primary complaint is not directly about the kids themselves. It is about the education system that we as adults are putting them through.
It amounts to the same thing. WHY the kids are messed up is just an explanation.
Agreed. That is what most people talk about when they say the basics of mathematics. IF they have those basics they should get a passing grade in that basic mathematics course. Then they can move on to the next level course.
Passing the class with a problem in front of you just like the problems you had in your book is an entirely different skill than being able to apply that problem to real life, or a word problem.
No, I never had any classes like that either. (Though it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if there were classes that did exactly that.) But I think most any student in the 70's or 80's had to be able to read a simple English sentence or phrase and understand what it meant. If they could not they did not get a C in the course.
Well obviously they can read SOME of what you're writing, just not all of it.
Have you also considered the possibility that its a generation gap thing, rather than a "they're all flaming idiots, what are they learning in school" thing? They don't need to be as precise or formal because they're used to instant communication with anyone/anything in the world complete with a picture.
If i were to send instructions by letter 100 years ago, i would have to put EVERYTHING in exacting detail in the letter, because if the person has any questions its going to take a month for the letter to get there, then have them write me back,
If you sent instructions in the 80's over the phone you need to be relatively comprehensive, but they can talk back to you and ask you the questions immediately.
Now if i get a list to go to the store and it says "ice cream" and the person left off the flavor and brand i can be in the isle, looking at the ice cream and talking asking mom what specifically she meant.
Ok, I suppose a more accurate term would have been communication in both directions rather than two way communication training. They should be able to read simple instructions, memos, schedules, etc… They should be able write (either on paper or in an email) what they did or what questions they have in an understandable manner.
Since this was NEVER a class as far as i know, how can you blame the school system for no longer teaching it? This isn't what they teach in english class, nor is it what they ever taught in english class as far as i know.
It would be an interesting experiment to see how they communicate with each other, rather than across a generation gap with you.
Apparently there is not a problem. It must be just me.
Sorry to have bothered you.