...will he grow back from the finger if you kill him and burn everything else?
...will he grow back from the finger if you kill him and burn everything else?
By RAW, "Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally."
So, no. You'll just have his finger in a jar.But, I like old-school trolls, too.
Ok, but...
Those who commonly battle with trolls know to locate and burn any pieces after a fight, for even the smallest scrap of flesh can regrow a full-size troll given enough time. Fortunately, only the largest part of a troll regrows in this way.
Ok, but...
Those who commonly battle with trolls know to locate and burn any pieces after a fight, for even the smallest scrap of flesh can regrow a full-size troll given enough time. Fortunately, only the largest part of a troll regrows in this way.
I think the idea is that the troll only has one 'soul', and that it moves to whatever the largest remaining piece of *living* flesh it has remaining is when it regenerates. A finger stuck in a jar probably would not still be alive when the troll dies, unless the finger was cut off very recently.
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Ok, but...
Those who commonly battle with trolls know to locate and burn any pieces after a fight, for even the smallest scrap of flesh can regrow a full-size troll given enough time. Fortunately, only the largest part of a troll regrows in this way.
"only the largest part regowns" ruins the plan. That said try to cut a troll neatly in half from eyes to ... that could get you 2 trolls.
Which of course brings to mind that cheesy Moonshae novel where the Troll with the artifact level axe was cutting off his fingers and creating 10 new trolls every day.
==Aelryinth
Hmm? No, only the largest part regrows so you can't get 2 trolls lol. But if everything else is burnt, the finger in the jar is the biggest part left, that's why I thought it would regrow.
I have to say though Matrixryu probably nailed it.
Edit: that was @sebastien hirst.
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I think the idea is that the troll only has one 'soul', and that it moves to whatever the largest remaining piece of *living* flesh it has remaining is when it regenerates. A finger stuck in a jar probably would not still be alive when the troll dies, unless the finger was cut off very recently.Ok, but...
Those who commonly battle with trolls know to locate and burn any pieces after a fight, for even the smallest scrap of flesh can regrow a full-size troll given enough time. Fortunately, only the largest part of a troll regrows in this way.
I did something to this effect once with an Artificer I played once. We killed a troll (old school troll, but the finger if largest part would work) and took a finger.
I placed it in a tube with a mild acid. Just enough acid to counteract the regrowth factor, but not enough to destroy the finger. I figured there could always be a time when I might need a troll. Ended up selling it to a Magic shop. The wizard always wanted a "Bottle ala Troll" lol.
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...will he grow back from the finger if you kill him and burn everything else?
I think is use to be that way.
@drake: That is awesome.
Ok, but...
Those who commonly battle with trolls know to locate and burn any pieces after a fight, for even the smallest scrap of flesh can regrow a full-size troll given enough time. Fortunately, only the largest part of a troll regrows in this way.
Good catch!
I think the idea is that the troll only has one 'soul', and that it moves to whatever the largest remaining piece of *living* flesh it has remaining is when it regenerates. A finger stuck in a jar probably would not still be alive when the troll dies, unless the finger was cut off very recently.
This raises an interesting philosophical question (and one that currently troubles me as a GM because our group is at the end of book 2 of Kingmaker...):
How does a troll piece know it is the largest piece? Suppose you have two pieces of troll, one large, one not-so-large. As soon as the large piece starts to regenerate, you cut it in half, thereby creating two smaller pieces. Now the not-so-large piece is the largest of the three. Will it then start to regenerate? Or will the larger one of the two other pieces continue to regenerate?
And how much time has to pass before the troll pieces agree on which of them is the largest piece?
This is why I'd prefer this approach:
I like old school trolls, where the troll grows a new finger, and the finger grows a new troll.
But I know my players would beat me to death with their rule books if I enforced that rule.
I think the idea is that the troll only has one 'soul', and that it moves to whatever the largest remaining piece of *living* flesh it has remaining is when it regenerates. A finger stuck in a jar probably would not still be alive when the troll dies, unless the finger was cut off very recently.This raises an interesting philosophical question (and one that currently troubles me as a GM because our group is at the end of book 2 of Kingmaker...):
How does a troll piece know it is the largest piece? Suppose you have two pieces of troll, one large, one not-so-large. As soon as the large piece starts to regenerate, you cut it in half, thereby creating two smaller pieces. Now the not-so-large piece is the largest of the three. Will it then start to regenerate? Or will the larger one of the two other pieces continue to regenerate?
And how much time has to pass before the troll pieces agree on which of them is the largest piece?
This is why I'd prefer this approach:
I like old school trolls, where the troll grows a new finger, and the finger grows a new troll.But I know my players would beat me to death with their rule books if I enforced that rule.
Well Regeneration is an Extraordinary Ability.
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.
So even though its not treated as magic or effected like magic... it can be a mystical thing that just "knows" its the biggest piece. So even though its a balance issue and added to combat Troll cheese, it can be explained as a mystical power of Trolls.
On that note. I'm not a huge comic fan, but didn't Wolverine regrow from a few skin cells once? How did they explain his regeneration powers? Maybe it could give us an idea on how to explain Trolls.
stick the largest piece in a heavy duty jar, cut off chunks as needed for sustenance.... hope you have a strong stomach?
Also, wolverines regeneration makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, dont even bother trying to come up with a "scientific" explanation for that crazy shiz.
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I had a very old witch with an advanced troll chained through his body to keep him in place each week she cut off his hands to use as base materials for her Giant regenrating crawling claws. The encounter happened otside her house in waist high grass the party was freaking out as "something" was making the grass move all arond them then bam a very party member is tripped. Where did he go? When they killed a claw (I gave the claws low hitpoints) no one noticed the regen. It was awesome particularly when they realized burning might not be the best idea since they were in the middle of waist high grasslands. The whole encounter came to me from seeing some halloween cupcakes that had green plastic zombie hand toppers. I used the toppers as the claws minis.
Suppose you have two pieces of troll, one large, one not-so-large. As soon as the large piece starts to regenerate, you cut it in half, thereby creating two smaller pieces. Now the not-so-large piece is the largest of the three. Will it then start to regenerate? Or will the larger one of the two other pieces continue to regenerate?
When you cut it in to two pieces in the first place, the troll soul chooses the bigger one and moves into that. The smaller piece becomes 'dead' - it can never regenerate, even if you then cut the other piece into tiny shreads.
Can you starve a troll to death?
Can you starve a troll to death?
No. Regeneration unambiguously says that the creature cannot die as long as the regeneration is active. They might be able to be starved into unconsciousness, depending on interpretation, but not to death.
Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
If a troll doesn't regenerate a stomach before it starves to death it dies.
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I fluffed that sometimes, when a troll loses a part you get a cutting, which turns out to be a stunted little troll that hangs around the big troll and kinda likes to hurl insults at advenurers.
Hilarious :)
It's like that little lizard monkey dude Jabba the Hutt has, who always laughs horridly at anybody being tortured/maimed/fed to the Rancor.....
If a troll doesn't regenerate a stomach before it starves to death it dies.
No, it wouldn't. It would simply remain in a semi-permanent unconscious state. If someone managed to pump food into after a year, it would wake up.
Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.
Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.
Emphasis mine. The damage from starvation would not be regenerated, and the troll would fall unconscious, but doesn't die until you shut off the regen with fire or acid (or, possibly, old age claims it).
Okay, I can eat crow.
A troll who didn't regenerate a stomach wouldn't die but I doubt that he could be brought back to full health once that avalanche starts rolling.
I asked recently if there was a bottom limit to the number of HP a troll can go negative and I was told there was not.
"not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage."
But you're right I guess it wouldn't die.
It's like that little lizard monkey dude Jabba the Hutt has, who always laughs horridly at anybody being tortured/maimed/fed to the Rancor.....
I would call him Scab or something like that!
Well Regeneration is an Extraordinary Ability.
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.
So even though its not treated as magic or effected like magic... it can be a mystical thing that just "knows" its the biggest piece. So even though its a balance issue and added to combat Troll cheese, it can be explained as a mystical power of Trolls.
Hmmm... yeah, maybe. Doesn't sound right to me, though. If we speak of mystical powers or soul travel, then it's hardly convincing that the soul will choose "the left leg, complete with three and a half toes", even though it may be the biggest part left. Instead, I would rule that the troll soul would stay with the head or the heart.
Also, even though it would be funny if I told my players "while you are hacking the head to pieces, one of the legs is silently trying to hop away", it just doesn't feel... right.
How does a troll piece know it is the largest piece? Suppose you have two pieces of troll, one large, one not-so-large. As soon as the large piece starts to regenerate, you cut it in half, thereby creating two smaller pieces. Now the not-so-large piece is the largest of the three. Will it then start to regenerate? Or will the larger one of the two other pieces continue to regenerate?
I think "largest piece" wanted to mean something on the line of "51% of the whole body", not "the largest remaining piece".
Of course, that would mean that you can definitely kill Trolls with weapons only by cutting them into small enough pieces, thus making a good part of Regeneration rules useless.But this is an uneasy and contradictory terrain, not only for Trolls, but for all regenerating creatures, because having every part, for small that it may be, grow a new creature would be a solution, but it would bring a series of issues.
First, imagine disintegrating the Tarrasque, only to find a swarm of a billion Tarrasques rampaging the world ten minutes later.
Second, say you destroy a Troll's brain. When it regenerates it won't be the same Troll as before, it will be like a baby in an adult body. He may have the same soul, but you destroy its organic hard-disk where all files were stored, how do you expect them to regenerate without making regeneration Supernatural rather than Ex?
Same goes for any new Troll born from severed parts. One of the regrown Trolls may have the original soul (surely the one with the brain, if it hasn't been destroyed), but the others will all be babies, brain-wise. They don't even know how to speak.
There are so many issues with Regeneration... I think the only solution is changing it to something like this:
Regeneration (Ex): works as it does now, but adds that anyway the creature can be killed if brought "X" hp (HD x Regeneration value, maybe?) below its normal death limit, meaning that whoever brings it down must do butcher-work on the body to reduce it to a size where the "largest part" is no more large enough to regrow.
And:
Supernatural Regeneration (Su): works as it does now, but lacks the part described in its Ex counterpart, and thus the creature can regrow from the part where its brain is, or, if the brain is destroyed, from the largest remaining part (or any randomly chosen single remaining part if they're all the same size), no matter how small it is, unless the creature has been slain by using whatever nullifies the creature's Regeneration (fire and such).
Then, each type of creature may or may not have a variant rule such as:
Troll Regeneration (Su): works like the Su Regeneration, except that while one part of the creature regrows the original Troll, the other parts, unless destroyed by using whatever nullifies the creature's Regeneration, all grow a new Troll each, similar to the original one but a separate being altogether. The new Trolls do not remember specific events, but otherwise have the same basic knowledge of the one they originated from, such as its most used language and best-known territories. They are basic Trolls and do not have class levels or increased HD and ability scores that the original might possess.
How does a troll piece know it is the largest piece? Suppose you have two pieces of troll, one large, one not-so-large. As soon as the large piece starts to regenerate, you cut it in half, thereby creating two smaller pieces. Now the not-so-large piece is the largest of the three. Will it then start to regenerate? Or will the larger one of the two other pieces continue to regenerate?I think "largest piece" wanted to mean something on the line of "51% of the whole body", not "the largest remaining piece".
Of course, that would mean that you can definitely kill Trolls with weapons only by cutting them into small enough pieces, thus making a good part of Regeneration rules useless.
But this is an uneasy and contradictory terrain, not only for Trolls, but for all regenerating creatures, because having every part, for small that it may be, grow a new creature would be a solution, but it would bring a series of issues.
First, imagine disintegrating the Tarrasque, only to find a swarm of a billion Tarrasques rampaging the world ten minutes later.
Second, say you destroy a Troll's brain. When it regenerates it won't be the same Troll as before, it will be like a baby in an adult body. He may have the same soul, but you destroy its organic hard-disk where all files were stored, how do you expect them to regenerate without making regeneration Supernatural rather than Ex?
Same goes for any new Troll born from severed parts. One of the regrown Trolls may have the original soul (surely the one with the brain, if it hasn't been destroyed), but the others will all be babies, brain-wise. They don't even know how to speak.There are so many issues with Regeneration... I think the only solution is changing it to something like this:
Regeneration (Ex): works as it does now, but adds that anyway the creature can be killed if brought "X" hp (HD x Regeneration value, maybe?) below its normal death limit, meaning that whoever brings it down must do butcher-work on the...
Well, in Pathfinder canon, specifically the book Winter Witch, there is a part where, after a troll fight, a village is carefully scouring a battlefield for every single little troll part to throw in a bonfire. So yeah, if a finger is the largest piece, it'll regrow from that. 51% not required.
As for the brain... that's a monism/dualism argument. If you assume that personality emanates from the brain, yes, new brain should mean new troll, mentally. But if you take the dualistic view that the brain acts more like an antenna for a separate consciousness, then a new antenna will just "catch the same frequency" so to speak, and the troll personality will be the same. Mind you, trolls don't have much personality anyhow, so it doesn't matter much.
That's in fact a reason to make its regen Su.
Or you need a suspension of disbelief on the level of accepting that 1+1=11.
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Actually, if each part grew into a new troll, and had the same brain, then under a dualist perspective they should all share the same mind, like a bunch of radios all tuned to the same station. Which would make for an awesome threat to throw at players.
"For some reason, the troll you slaughtered days ago has returned for you... using the most coordinated group tactics you have ever seen!"
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Actually, if each part grew into a new troll, and had the same brain, then under a dualist perspective they should all share the same mind, like a bunch of radios all tuned to the same station. Which would make for an awesome threat to throw at players.
"For some reason, the troll you slaughtered days ago has returned for you... using the most coordinated group tactics you have ever seen!"
meep.
Trolls with Hivemind capabilities is a scary scary thought.
Trolls with Hivemind capabilities is a scary scary thought.
Troll Swarm.
What if you burn its body and put the head in a glass jar full of water? Will it stay alive? I'm imagining a Trollslayer with all these angry troll heads in jars in his castle. One night his wife gets pissed that her hubby is cheating and throws a fit smashing all of the jars and leaving the castle. Wont it be fun when honey comes home to find all the new residents of his castle?
I think the idea is that the troll only has one 'soul', and that it moves to whatever the largest remaining piece of *living* flesh it has remaining is when it regenerates. A finger stuck in a jar probably would not still be alive when the troll dies, unless the finger was cut off very recently.Ok, but...
Those who commonly battle with trolls know to locate and burn any pieces after a fight, for even the smallest scrap of flesh can regrow a full-size troll given enough time. Fortunately, only the largest part of a troll regrows in this way.
This sounds like a cool back-up plan for a GM that has a caster that just loves spamming disintegrate. Since people like that tend to get famous, I could imagine a reoccurring mercenary antagonist with this premise.
Also, I noticed this thread decided to regenerate after a long time being dead. The glory of the search bar.
Which of course brings to mind that cheesy Moonshae novel where the Troll with the artifact level axe was cutting off his fingers and creating 10 new trolls every day.
You know - the first two D&D novels I ever owned were "The Legend of Huma" and a Moonshae novel (Darkwalker on Moonshae??). I have found so many reasons over the years to be glad I read Huma, and didn't bother with the other.
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I think in my next world Trolls are going to reproduce by budding. Genetically there will be only one Troll.
I like the Iron Kingdoms trolls. Cut off flesh becomes 'whelps', which are annoying little creatures that seem to exist only to pester anyone around them (including trolls) and either get eaten or wither away.
I think I read somewhere that a troll can only regenerate into a complete being from a piece that was still attached at the moment of death.
Flavor text from the Troll entry in the Bestiary:
All trolls spend most of their time hunting for food, as they must consume vast amounts each day or face starvation
This leads me to believe that a Troll (especially one that has suffered wounds) needs that food to fuel his regeneration ability.
And if you force a Troll to regenerate over and over by re-cutting his pieces as they regenerate it would quickly die from starvation.
Seeing as 1 hour is the limit when a severed limb can be reattached (see below) I would see this as the limit one piece of Troll can stay active. So if you have no fire and acid at hand you could keep cutting the Troll into small pieces until those truly die after 1 hour.
Info text from regeneration special ability:
Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.
The info in the regeneration text means (in my opinion at least) attacks that do not deal hitpoint damage or starvation/thirst/suffocation effects are uneffected by regeneration at all. Thus a Troll simply dies just like anyone else when slain with a death effect, turned to stone or drowned in a river. In fact Trolls probably should suffocate/starve/thirst even faster than normal creatures due to their heightened metabolism.
I know there is the interpretation that it can't die until fire or acid damage is applied. But I find that unnecessarily complicated. If you manage to beat a Troll without using his weakness against him you must have been pretty strong or clever to begin with. You don't need to make the PCs jump through hoops for winning a more difficult fight.
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I played a Troll character in a private game once and thus needed to define their traits more detailed. I came up with these rules. Maybe it's of use:
- Must consume 3 times the normal food amount.
- Starves 3 times as fast
- Regenerating 100% of his hitpoints makes him starve as if he had gone 1 day without food.
- Takes -5 penalty on saves VS starvation
Well, when the troll goes to -500 and takes a single point of fire damage from being burnt the regeneration stops and the troll die. Dead trolls ave no regeneration, thus the finger also won't regenerate.
Flavor text from the Troll entry in the Bestiary:
All trolls spend most of their time hunting for food, as they must consume vast amounts each day or face starvationThis leads me to believe that a Troll (especially one that has suffered wounds) needs that food to fuel his regeneration ability.
And if you force a Troll to regenerate over and over by re-cutting his pieces as they regenerate it would quickly die from starvation.
Seeing as 1 hour is the limit when a severed limb can be reattached (see below) I would see this as the limit one piece of Troll can stay active. So if you have no fire and acid at hand you could keep cutting the Troll into small pieces until those truly die after 1 hour.
After reading a bit about their religion and their usual god, I thought that the fact that they had an insatiable hunger and faced the pains of starvation was because they were created by a sadistic deity that would find it funny. So, given such a deity, making them starve very quickly simply gave the enjoyment of that event without the extensive waiting period you would normally find for a creature of that size (and let's face it, CE deities are often not known for patience)
I actually used this little 'theory' in my Kingmaker game. I figured that if a troll body part was kept 'fresh' by gentle repose and the original troll was killed, the kept part would reform into the original troll.
I mentioned this idea to a player, and later, they discovered they were fighting the same trolls over and over again. The idea of an immortal troll army freaked the players out. One even went so far as to fake switching sides so he can discover if what he thought he knew was true.
As it turned out, the trolls had access to an artifact level device (room, really) that enhanced certain aspects of various creatures. The trolls were using it to 'regenerate' copies of the trolls caged inside it. Once the 'clone' was killed, the soul returned to the original (think soul jar) until the original grew another clone.
This was the site of the end battle. The more creatures that entered the magical area, the more of various effects were tossed about. Add in two powerful trolls, and their elite bodyguards, heroics, betrayals, noble and unholy sacrifices, and that was out battle.
To make a long story short: unless you have a story reason to letting trolls regrow from fingers, don't.
My problem is the distinction between flesh and blood. Logically the lifeblood of any creature is the blood, in human/animal bodies the blood clots the wound and carries nutrients to patch any wounds.
I don't get how chunks of flesh would regenerate and not the blood itself. You slash a troll up and it bleeds ichor everywhere, that blood should be turning into trolls.