Goblin Squad Member
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2) The designers have SPECIFICALY stated that thier INTENT is that new players catch up and be able to compete with the older players in terms of raw power.
They have also stated their intent to allow characters to have open-ended advancement, where they will eventually, theoretically, have access to all archetypes.
Yet, you consistently argue as if the latter will automatically make the former impossible.
I trust they'll get it close enough to right that it won't really matter. I just hope they don't resort to Talent Trees, or some other arbitrary cap.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) The designers have SPECIFICALY stated that thier INTENT is that new players catch up and be able to compete with the older players in terms of raw power.They have also stated their intent to allow characters to have open-ended advancement, where they will eventually, theoretically, have access to all archetypes.
Yet, you consistently argue as if the latter will automatically make the former impossible.
I trust they'll get it close enough to right that it won't really matter. I just hope they don't resort to Talent Trees, or some other arbitrary cap.
Yes that's quite true and I happen to believe that those design goals are largely irreconcilable. I don't really have that big a problem with thier goals and I hope that I am pleasantly surprised by what they are able to come up with.
However, I tend to doubt they are going to be able to work out an effective mechanism to meet both thier goals and am a bit worried they are going to end up with a badly broken system in the attempt. Now seems an appropriate time and place to raise awareness of such concerns.
In terms of personal preferences, I don't much care for games where any single one character ends up being able to do pretty much everything there is possible to do in the game. I have absolutely no problem with Talent Tree's, hard caps or other mechanisms designed to limit the abilities that a character can utilize at any one time.
If for that, or any other reason, PFO ends up not being to my taste... no problem, I'll just move on...I've got nothing invested in being able to play this particular game. However, there is enough here that sparks my interest...that I'm willing to participate in these discussions...and I believe I would be doing the designers a disservice by not providing suggestions and input about the potential hazards when I see them.
I don't automaticaly trust that they'll get it right. That's not for any lack of faith in thier talents or commitment, it's simply due to the fact that designing something as large and complex as an MMO is a really, really difficult endevour....and thier goals for this particular MMO are even more daunting of a task.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now seems an appropriate time and place to raise awareness of such concerns.
Fair enough. As long as you don't mind me being just as vocal in encouraging them to pursue their stated goals, rather than constantly telling them they're impossible.
In terms of personal preferences, I don't much care for games where any single one character ends up being able to do pretty much everything there is possible to do in the game.
I humbly submit this is an extremely unlikely outcome.
I am extremely excited about PFO precisely because of the stated design goals. Open-ended progression is one of those things that I have been seeking for a long time. I would really hate to see the negativity of those who think they're doomed to fail discourage the PFO designers from pursuing this awesome goal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fair enough. As long as you don't mind me being just as vocal in encouraging them to pursue their stated goals, rather than constantly telling them they're impossible.
I don't mind at all. It wouldn't be much of a discussion board if people always agreed on everything ;)
I humbly submit this is an extremely unlikely outcome.I am extremely excited about PFO precisely because of the stated design goals. Open-ended progression is one of those things that I have been seeking for a long time. I would really hate to see the negativity of those who think they're doomed to fail discourage the PFO designers from pursuing this awesome goal.
I'm sure if they can figure out a mechanism that they have some confidence will achieve those goals then they'll pursue them. If not, you probably wouldn't want them to do so.
I'm only interested in being negative in terms of pointing out potential pitfalls. If that helps a designer look a bit more criticaly at a potential mechanic to see if it is susceptible to such pitfalls, I'm happy...as we'll get a more functional design as a result.
Note, right now we've only heard a pretty rough sketch of the design they are looking to have. There are some potential hazards lurking in that design (IMO)..... it's upto them to figure out mechanisms that avoid them....once they work out and describe more of the details of those mechanisms... we should be able to get alot clearer picture of what the results might look like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan Dancey - I have a question for you regarding our characters in PFO. You have stated that the better and rarer rewards will be found in low security zones.
I am looking at creating a crafter. I would love to be able to have a character who can be known as the best sword maker or whatever in the world.
My question is this, will I be forced into being an adventurer in order to further my crafting? I would hope not. I would love to be able to work with a group and have them bring my the materials I need in order to make what I make.
Also, will we be able to craft better gear/weapons/etc just by getting "Crafting badges" or whatever? Or will we be reliant on adventurers finding rare recipes out in the world?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan Dancey - I have a question for you regarding our characters in PFO. You have stated that the better and rarer rewards will be found in low security zones.
I am looking at creating a crafter. I would love to be able to have a character who can be known as the best sword maker or whatever in the world.
My question is this, will I be forced into being an adventurer in order to further my crafting? I would hope not. I would love to be able to work with a group and have them bring my the materials I need in order to make what I make.
Also, will we be able to craft better gear/weapons/etc just by getting "Crafting badges" or whatever? Or will we be reliant on adventurers finding rare recipes out in the world?
I believe in past posts etc... he stated that being a pure crafter/non combatant would be fully possible Here is the post on the subject
More or less you may have a slimmer profit margain (because you will be buying your materials from harvesters), but will likely be able to do more with it if your skills are focused on crafting. From the sounds of it odds are the merit badges to progress crafting will likely be related to crafting. IE make 10 of this item, or something to those regards, I highly doubt they are going to force a crafter to kill something to level up their crafting.
Sorry about the late entry into the topic, I'm just getting here.
I liked almost everything I read in the blog regarding character advancement. There's only one part that stood out as something I distinctly despise in every game in which I've encountered it.
Level gated equipment accessibility.
I'm sorry, are you saying I can't wrap my hand around the hilt of this dagger and jam it into somebody because my dagger skill isn't 25+?
I love the idea of a skill based advancement system, and I have a preference for use-based advancement, though I can certainly understand the reasoning behind not applied use-based advancement in an MMORPG. Grinding can be absurd to an outside viewer. (It's got some realistic application though, and hopefully I'll get back to that later without too much rambling in between). I despise the idea that a sword, axe, or crossbow (the original point-and-click combat interface) can't even be equipped, much less used, because I haven't attained sufficient mastery of the skillset. I could accept some Japanese weaponmaster refusing to let me wield his family Katana before I'd reached a certain mastery (if ever) but that's a cultural/RP restriction, not a mechanical one. Outside of movies where someone who's never fired a gun manages to spin in a circle because they weren't ready for the recoil on an AK-47 (makes me want to slap a director... with an AK-47) there's no good reason why most characters who have functioning hands should not be able to at least pick up and attempt to use the VAST majority of weapons. They may be abysmally incompetent, but they should at least be allowed to make the attempt. I'll make allowance for very weak characters with very heavy weapons to be an exception.
Ok, I get that this isn't intended to keep the alchemist's apprentice from wielding the butcher's cleaver. It's more likely that you want Bleedy-screamy, the legendary bloodletter wielded by Volknar the Sadist to only be used by someone who actually has some skill with daggers, and maybe Profession:Torturer. I understand the value inherent in that. I would propose a compromise however...
Instead of level-gating the ability to even equip certain advanced gear, level gate specific advanced abilities that the gear has. When an unskilled wielder holds Bleedy-screamy, it's more effective than a typical dagger, but not by much. As he reaches certain thresholds in skill level however, various advanced powers and attributes to the artifact become unlocked and available for use, whether it be through a passive increase in combat performance or some actively triggered special power, like debuffing Fast Talk skill to 0.
This approach also applies other advantages in that treasure can be handed out that only "seems" to be of mediocre quality to most people, but when appraised by someone with a high enough level in the appropriate skill it's true value becomes apparent, a happy surprise! (Though this is not necessary... Bleedy-screamy is afterall Legendary, and as such, most everyone knows what it's capable of in the right hands, unlike Excaliban, a sword that gives a character with high enough guild status the power to reinvite someone the guildmaster booted within the last 7 days, but otherwise just looks like a masterwork longsword.)
Oh yeah, back to Grinding. Repeated use of a skill or technique, even outside of actual combat is known to produce improved results during more important situations. This is why people practice and train, whether we're talking about martial artists, football players, or soldiers... I know some people don't want to watch people perform training katas in the streets (though it looks pretty cool when Tai Chi practitioners do that exact thing, which would make for a cool monk event every sunrise) but I would like to see proficiency rewarded for activity.
"Hey, I made an account, paid 30 months up front because I was about to file bankruptcy anyway, and then blew off the game after a couple weeks. Now 2.5 years later I'm back and I get to pick a Capstone ability! Woohoo, I'm Leet, Who's yo daddy?"
Yeah, that's a little exaggerated, but rewarding people for not playing is why we don't like bots. On the other hand, actually going out and getting in swordfights being no more likely to improve your sword skill than logging off and playing WoW is kind of a slap in the face to everybody who does go out and get in swordfights (in the game... People who go out and get in swordfights in RL are more than welcome to trashtalk my character's swordfighting skills).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks. It seems I have a lot of reading ahead of me!
Yep, there's a lot to catch up on.
I compiled the most relevant reading materials here. They focus on game mechanics, not so much the kickstarter reports, or community messgaes.
I also suggest going to each discussion thread(linked at the end of each blog) and look for any post by Ryan Dancey, Vic Wertz, Lee Hammock, and Stephen Cheney. Vic will pop up more in the discussions earlier this year, and Lee and Stephen only after the blog about ability bars.