I've been running games for several years now, on a few different systems. I've never run in PFS before, but I am planning to start soon. I've noticed a trend here, and thought I would ask for opinions on it.
It seems like being a PFS GM requires a much stronger backbone than being a GM at a homebrew game.
The reason I say this is because, in a homebrew game, a GM is free to handwave things in or out of the system. All of the arguments lately about reskinning animal companions aren't an issue so much in homebrew games. "Can I reskin my cat to a snow leopard?" "Sure, as long as it doesn't break things later. We'll see how it goes."
In PFS, the law is set down (mostly) in stone. A GM puts their back against it, and makes calls from there. It seems like a PFS GM has to be able eat nails for breakfast, to withstand the onslaught of people dancing (accidentally or intentionally) around the rules. I know my local GM always does a great job of handling situations where people try to step outside of the rules. I usually tend to be a much more accommodating GM and try to use a gentle hand when guiding players, and am a bit nervous about having to put on that steel gauntlet.
That being said... do any of you experienced GMs have any advice on how to handle this? I'm sure it's something that can be learned; growing a GM spine is a skill that needs to be cultivated. Any advice on the mindset you adopt when going in?
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I've been running games for several years now, on a few different systems. I've never run in PFS before, but I am planning to start soon. I've noticed a trend here, and thought I would ask for opinions on it.
It seems like being a PFS GM requires a much stronger backbone than being a GM at a homebrew game.
The reason I say this is because, in a homebrew game, a GM is free to handwave things in or out of the system. All of the arguments lately about reskinning animal companions aren't an issue so much in homebrew games. "Can I reskin my cat to a snow leopard?" "Sure, as long as it doesn't break things later. We'll see how it goes."
In PFS, the law is set down (mostly) in stone. A GM puts their back against it, and makes calls from there. It seems like a PFS GM has to be able eat nails for breakfast, to withstand the onslaught of people dancing (accidentally or intentionally) around the rules. I know my local GM always does a great job of handling situations where people try to step outside of the rules. I usually tend to be a much more accommodating GM and try to use a gentle hand when guiding players, and am a bit nervous about having to put on that steel gauntlet.
That being said... do any of you experienced GMs have any advice on how to handle this? I'm sure it's something that can be learned; growing a GM spine is a skill that needs to be cultivated. Any advice on the mindset you adopt when going in?
The big thing is to make your players understand that this is basically a GIGANTIC home game, and that you aren't the DM in charge. These are the rules that they laid out for us to follow. You don't have to like them, but if you want to play this game, you'll have to follow them. They are there to try to make as much as possible fair for the hundreds (or thousands) of people playing the game.
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I've been running games for several years now, on a few different systems. I've never run in PFS before, but I am planning to start soon. I've noticed a trend here, and thought I would ask for opinions on it.
It seems like being a PFS GM requires a much stronger backbone than being a GM at a homebrew game.
The reason I say this is because, in a homebrew game, a GM is free to handwave things in or out of the system. All of the arguments lately about reskinning animal companions aren't an issue so much in homebrew games. "Can I reskin my cat to a snow leopard?" "Sure, as long as it doesn't break things later. We'll see how it goes."
In PFS, the law is set down (mostly) in stone. A GM puts their back against it, and makes calls from there. It seems like a PFS GM has to be able eat nails for breakfast, to withstand the onslaught of people dancing (accidentally or intentionally) around the rules. I know my local GM always does a great job of handling situations where people try to step outside of the rules. I usually tend to be a much more accommodating GM and try to use a gentle hand when guiding players, and am a bit nervous about having to put on that steel gauntlet.
That being said... do any of you experienced GMs have any advice on how to handle this? I'm sure it's something that can be learned; growing a GM spine is a skill that needs to be cultivated. Any advice on the mindset you adopt when going in?
I don't think you have to be overly authoritarian or dictatorial to solve these issues.
Basically all you have to do is say, "that isn't part of the rules, and in organized play we pretty much have to stick with the rules as written for consistency purposes." If the player wants to make an huge issue out of it, just say, "sorry, it is out of my hands." You can even point to specific spots in the guide, FAQ, and/or Additional Resources to make your point.
For the most part though, I don't think this will be an issue for 99% of the players you run into.
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I've been running games for several years now, on a few different systems. I've never run in PFS before, but I am planning to start soon. I've noticed a trend here, and thought I would ask for opinions on it.
It seems like being a PFS GM requires a much stronger backbone than being a GM at a homebrew game.
The reason I say this is because, in a homebrew game, a GM is free to handwave things in or out of the system. All of the arguments lately about reskinning animal companions aren't an issue so much in homebrew games. "Can I reskin my cat to a snow leopard?" "Sure, as long as it doesn't break things later. We'll see how it goes."
In PFS, the law is set down (mostly) in stone. A GM puts their back against it, and makes calls from there. It seems like a PFS GM has to be able eat nails for breakfast, to withstand the onslaught of people dancing (accidentally or intentionally) around the rules. I know my local GM always does a great job of handling situations where people try to step outside of the rules. I usually tend to be a much more accommodating GM and try to use a gentle hand when guiding players, and am a bit nervous about having to put on that steel gauntlet.
That being said... do any of you experienced GMs have any advice on how to handle this? I'm sure it's something that can be learned; growing a GM spine is a skill that needs to be cultivated. Any advice on the mindset you adopt when going in?
I have always taken the stance of fun first, the rest of it all comes second. Tell your table that your goal is fun, and you hope they'll help you have fun by not breaking the rules. If you have an issue, if its not game breaking (unless its something blatant), let it go until after the game and talk it over then. If you have a problem with a player, again, take it up later. You'd be surprised how many players take things well after a game rather than during one. Finally, good luck, and happy playing! It just takes time and experience.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think the best thing you can do is remember that these messageboards do not represent what people are really like. There's a lot more Rage 'n' Cheese Salad here than in real life.
You do need to know the rules reasonably well, because a player would be rightfully upset if you told them their character was dead at -10 HP when really they have 6 rounds to go because they invested so heavily in CON.
But in my experience, players are there to have fun playing Pathfinder. Locally, I have yet to encounter someone trying to "bend" the rules. Mistakes happen, but it's easy to fix. For instance, I played at a table once where there were three errors relating to weapons: one person was using the old version of Heirloom Weapon and two halflings thought they automatically had proficiency in the halfling sling staff. The GM pointed out the error, said "we'll do X for the rest of the scenario" and then helped them correct their stuff after the session. No big deal.
My advice would be this:
Most people are gonna think you're awesome for running, and if anyone gets nasty, you are allowed to boot them from the table without a chronicle. Don't worry about it, relax, be open to correction on the rules (since it's possible that some house rules have become subconscious habits, and in any case there's always someone who appears to have the CRB memorized with page numbers and everything), and also remember that if the rules are fuzzy you still have the power to make the call.
Honestly, it's not as bad as the messageboards (my posts included) would make you think. :)
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Honestly, it's not as bad as the messageboards (my posts included) would make you think. :)
I agree with everything Jiggy said here.
The other thing to realize with the PFS boards:
If you ask for the rule, you are going to get the hard and fast rule.
If you ask for justification, you will get the reasoning behind it.
At some point, this discussion wlll prompt a debate.
I'm sure many folks out there who have never played a session with me think that I'm the most hard-core stick-in-the-mud GM going. Truth is, the only argument I remember having with a PFS player was when I was mustering for Gen Con 3 years ago. When a rules question comes up, the players and I come to agreements quickly and with no drama. I'm open to correction, and have never had a player become firmly entrenched against a table ruling.
The majority of sessions where I have left unsatisfied are when I thought I didn't do a scenario justice.
I've only had 2 incidents with players (in my 84 sessions reported) that I remember as sticking in my craw, and neither was based on the RPG rules.
As Jiggy said, everyone is there to have fun, and the overwhelming majority will approach the session in that spirit.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As Jiggy said, everyone is there to have fun, and the overwhelming majority will approach the session in that spirit.
And for what it's worth (though I don't really feel like it's enough), I apologize for every post I've made that ever contributed to the anxiety the OP is expressing, and for such posts that I will make in the future.
Wow, thanks everyone! This makes me feel tremendously better about GMing for PFS. Most of the players around here are extremely reasonable and laid back, so I am hopeful that there won't be any major issues.
In my previous home games, I usually have done my best to remember most rules, but typically I rely on having a few walking rulebooks at the table with me, so I won't have to worry too much. If there's a question, I generally open it up to the table and let people quote the rule for me. In this way, it's like the old story about a group of people killing a man by each taking a bite, so no one would shoulder the blame. I guess that's a bit gruesome, but if the table can settle their own disputes, it prevents hurt feelings, and encourages players to learn from one another. If there's a direct call that needs to be made, I usually make it and move on. If there's an opposing view, articulate it quickly and the table will rule on it. I guess I'm a bit more of a democratic GM in that respect.
It sounds like a lot of the rulings are less life-or-death than believed. The boards here tend to make things sound dire, but I try to take everything with the idea that this is where rules are made or broken. The boards are for community and clarification; the table is for relaxing. I haven't experienced any brutal rule wars in any games around here, but it's reassuring to know I have the support of 99% of players in the event of an argument. It is also comforting to know that I can play one scenario with things slightly out of whack, and fix it afterward with the player.
Thank you everyone for your encouraging replies. :)
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The big thing you need to emphasize is that it is a shared campaign with hundreds of DM's running modules, so the campaign needs consistency to be fair to everyone. And you aren't doing your players any favors if you let them skirt the rules, because if they play at a table with a different judge, they could get a rude awakening.
I have to concur, if you're having a problem with rules slowing the game down, throw out the rule, tell them you'll look at it/fix it later, and we're going to have fun now.
The boards are for arguing, inside the game, wrap it up and get moving. Fun waits for no dice!
==Aelryinth
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You are correct.
Judging PFS is leagues harder than DMing a home game for exactly the reasons you stated.
I don't know I've found that when DMing at pathfinder events that it can actually be easier. First, there are usually at least one or two experienced players at each table that know the rules well. Secondly, most of the players are really there to have fun. Where weekly home games can drag down when people meet every week. When they come to game days or big cons they are there to pack in games for fun. There are far more times that our home games break down with rules discussions. Most of our players seem to understand that they are under time constraints and keep the game going making it easier on you the GM.
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One thing I've encountered GMing PFS that has not been mentioned, is that often one is running games for people one has never met before or barely knows. What this has meant for me, is that I've had to put my polite and empathic hats on, and not immediately take offense at someone who is being difficult. After all, I don't know where they are coming from, and it behooves me to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I'm not talking about being a pushover, just realizing that when people don't know each other, misunderstandings can more easily occur.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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One thing I've encountered GMing PFS that has not been mentioned, is that often one is running games for people one has never met before or barely knows. What this has meant for me, is that I've had to put my polite and empathic hats on, and not immediately take offense at someone who is being difficult. After all, I don't know where they are coming from, and it behooves me to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I'm not talking about being a pushover, just realizing that when people don't know each other, misunderstandings can more easily occur.
This. I've seen multiple threads on these boards where either a player thinks a GM was picking on him, or a GM thinks a player is trying to get away with something. And in most cases, each perception was the result of assuming the other.
Better to give people the benefit of the doubt.
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In response to the OP:
It is rare for a player to strenuously argue the PFS campaign rules to their GM - despite what you may see on the message boards. Most players accept that you are the GM and after having a chance to explain their position are willing to accept your decision and move on. For the rare few who continue to argue their position, after you have reviewed the rules and ruled against them, refer them to the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play Chapter 5 Pathfinder Society Special Rules under the section, Do Not Bully Other Players. Specifically the last sentence:
Extreme or repetitive cases should be resolved by asking the offender to leave the table.
Though it doesn't say it outright, the GM is another player and deserves the same respect. If they still continue to argue and you are certain your decision is fair, fill out a Chronicle Sheet for them and tell them to leave. They are only delaying the game for everyone else.
That being said, I have never encountered this level of argument in PFS. A player may come on strong, but that is usually an emotional reaction just to get your attention. If you give them a moment to speak and a chance to show you the rules, they will accept your ruling most every time.
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That being said, I have never encountered this level of argument in PFS. A player may come on strong, but that is usually an emotional reaction just to get your attention. If you give them a moment to speak and a chance to show you the rules, they will accept your ruling most every time.
Don's post here has a very important point that can't be stressed enough--from both sides of the table, PFS takes away our ability to make arbitrary houserules to change balance in the way we enjoy, and that's equally true for a player breaking the rules as it is for a GM. I've been in the position as a player where the GM either doesn't know or is just basically ignoring the relevant rule, and the great thing about 90% of the PFS GMs around is that (if the player takes the time to find the page and put a finger on the appropriate quote), they'll take the time to check and correct themselves.
However, unfortunately the flip side is true--about 10% of PFS GMs don't do this. Like most players, I want the game to go on smoothly, so if the GM refuses to budge after one attempt, I'll back down and not say any more about it. However, it will usually sour my experience.
The attitude of the judge's friend in the above spoiler block was pretty bad: So the long and the short of it is, the blade cuts both ways--be sure to listen to the player in cases where you just made a mistake. If there's ever any leeway, obviously, we GMs are the boss, but sometimes the player is unambiguously correct. I know I learned a few of the new Pathfinder rules minutiae that had stealthily changed from 3.5 from other PFS players correcting me (for instance the way ability damage works now I first learned from a player in Among the Dead).
We need to be open to the listening to the players, firm in telling them 'No' when we've read the rule and we disagree, and fair in telling them 'Yes' when we are wrong.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond.
Everything on here has been my experience in PFS as well. I have yet to find a player or GM who isn't willing to listen to reason. I would imagine that anyone not willing to listen to reason is most likely quickly removed from the invitation list. We don't have much time to waste around here, while the people in our local PFS group are extremely accommodating, I doubt they would put up with repeated rudeness.