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A couple months ago I began a Thread elsewhere on the Boards about how a Raise Dead spell and Gr. Restoration is equivalent to a True Resurrection at SIGNIFICANTLY less cost.
Now, looking over the new Society Guide I am reminded of how badly this is broken.
To purchase a True Resurrection for one's Society PC one must spend 77 Prestige Points.
To purchase a Raise Dead and a Restoration with removal of a permanent level for one's PC, one must spend 20 (16+4) Prestige Points.
Which will you choose when your Society PC gets killed!
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Oh I knew someone had to bring that up.
How many times, really will a Society PC get hit with a disintigrate or have its body killed and stolen by some Type III Glabrezu to the Abyss?!
. . . . It just seems wrong that 99% of the deaths can be fixed without loss of level by something so much cheaper than True Res.
It makes True Res a pathetic spell.
Actually, no, it makes the existence of a new spell, Greater Restoration, dumbly broken.
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Really, though?
Sure there are occassions where the body is gone.
But most deaths occur from the orc's blade and once the other PCs kill the orc,...
In any event, even if deaths where raise dead was useless were more common, I still think True Res becomes much too weak since gr. restoration brings back permanent levels.
The fact that sometimes the PC's body is GONE doesn't change the argument.
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Really, though?
Sure there are occassions where the body is gone.
But most deaths occur from the orc's blade and once the other PCs kill the orc,...
In any event, even if deaths where raise dead was useless were more common, I still think True Res becomes much too weak since gr. restoration brings back permanent levels.
The fact that sometimes the PC's body is GONE doesn't change the argument.
OK, so what do you propose.
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Hey Michael,
On a side note -- you are my regional Venture Captain and I and another gamer around here (Sarasota) have been itching to get back in Society play.
I've only played in about a dozen Scenarios and DMed about a 1/2 dozen. My friend has not yet played any Scenarios. When we get our schedules a bit more stable (the new school year and all -- I'm a private school admin) I may shoot you an email to see if you know anyone south of the Skyway interested in the Society.
We've got a healthy number of Pathfinder players around here but only a couple really interested in Organized Play.
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Hey Michael,
On a side note -- you are my regional Venture Captain and I and another gamer around here (Sarasota) have been itching to get back in Society play.
I've only played in about a dozen Scenarios and DMed about a 1/2 dozen. My friend has not yet played any Scenarios. When we get our schedules a bit more stable (the new school year and all -- I'm a private school admin) I may shoot you an email to see if you know anyone south of the Skyway interested in the Society.
We've got a healthy number of Pathfinder players around here but only a couple really interested in Organized Play.
Man, I'm in the middle of getting two stores set up right now, and Sarasota is a bit of a stretch for me. but maybe this will help. I just set up this site to start coordinating game play. check it out, maybe we can attract other player in your area and we can get you going. Do you guys have a store or another location to play at?
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You don't even need the greater restoration. There's no such thing as negative levels from being raised in PFS.
Basically the different tiers of Rezzing exist only to counter the horrible, horrible things that might happen to a body.
And yes, at lower level play, a raise is almost always enough. Then death effects start being seen more frequently. Undead with create spawn. Etc. You need a Rez for those.
Then you start to have some adventures where the loss condition is "the body is gone forever... it's not on golarion. There are only a few of those, but they exist. As does disintegration. True rez is rare, but a retired PC will need a couple of post-12 modules under his belt before he can afford it (from PP anyway), and post-12 modules are the things I could see calling for True Rez.
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Interesting... that would be quite a big change. I'm going to FAQ your post. Seems like something that would have been mentioned. It certainly isn't in the guide any more, though.
This, a lot. Holy crap would that ever be a big change. Definitely FAQ-worthy.
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If there's no level loss in PFS then ignore my OP -- it becomes irrelevant.
But, yeah, I just read the 4.0, right before I made the OP and didn't see any no loss of level for PC death clause. What I did see was the ridiculous PP cost discrepancy between True Res and RD+Gr.Rest.
. . . .
Michael, I was jost hoping you may hear of or know of Players south of the Skyway who are looking and asking you. If so -- let us know, please.
We're (going to be) looking for a couple more Players in our area -- we wouldn't be asking anyone from above the Skyway to come down regularly.
Or maybe to start an occassional Event to host where we could send out an invite, say once or twice a year, and see if anyone wants to come down for an Event. But I don't know how feasible that is.
Most likely I'd DM in any event. I wouldn't ask anyone else to do that here.... at least until I've played with them once or twice ;)
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If there's no level loss in PFS then ignore my OP -- it becomes irrelevant.
But, yeah, I just read the 4.0, right before I made the OP and didn't see any no loss of level for PC death clause. What I did see was the ridiculous PP cost discrepancy between True Res and RD+Gr.Rest.
. . . .
Michael, I was jost hoping you may hear of or know of Players south of the Skyway who are looking and asking you. If so -- let us know, please.
We're (going to be) looking for a couple more Players in our area -- we wouldn't be asking anyone from above the Skyway to come down regularly.
Or maybe to start an occassional Event to host where we could send out an invite, say once or twice a year, and see if anyone wants to come down for an Event. But I don't know how feasible that is.
Most likely I'd DM in any event. I wouldn't ask anyone else to do that here.... at least until I've played with them once or twice ;)
I have asked some friend from down that way and come up short. The site I posted is to try and be a clearing house for that sort of thing. Occasionally i get requests from as far north as Tallahassee.
Once you join I can set you up to create an event and if someone comes to the site in your area they will contact you. Think about it for a while.
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Yeah, more than once I've seen halflings (or rather, one halfling on more than one occasion) frantically trying to cut their way out of a gibbering mouther's stomach.
Burlap really hates jibbering mouthers.
(I'd strenuously argue that a swallowed PC isn't completely dissolved into nothingness just because they're killed by stomach acids, however. Ordinary Res should do the job if his allies can kill the monster and cut it open for his corpse.)
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Yeah, more than once I've seen halflings (or rather, one halfling on more than one occasion) frantically trying to cut their way out of a gibbering mouther's stomach.I'd strenuously argue that a swallowed PC isn't completely dissolved into nothingness just because they're killed by stomach acids, however. Ordinary Res should do the job if his allies can kill the monster and cut it open for his corpse.
I have to admit that I'm in line with this thought. It never even occurred to me to consider a character unrecoverable if it died due to acid damage in a stomach. I've seen too many corpses that are mostly intact come out of my cat to believe otherwise. And I don't get to those immediately after death, either...
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You don't even need the greater restoration. There's no such thing as negative levels from being raised in PFS.
Basically the different tiers of Rezzing exist only to counter the horrible, horrible things that might happen to a body.
And yes, at lower level play, a raise is almost always enough. Then death effects start being seen more frequently. Undead with create spawn. Etc. You need a Rez for those.
Then you start to have some adventures where the loss condition is "the body is gone forever... it's not on golarion. There are only a few of those, but they exist. As does disintegration. True rez is rare, but a retired PC will need a couple of post-12 modules under his belt before he can afford it (from PP anyway), and post-12 modules are the things I could see calling for True Rez.
You know, I was going to say that, as well...but then I noticed they appear to have removed that from the paragraph in the new 4.0 update. I wonder if that was intentional or a cut and paste error?
From 3.3 guide:
he can be raised by a PC
of appropriate class and level that’s seated at his table
(paying all expected costs), or he can be raised by an
NPC in an appropriately-sized settlement (see Chapter 8,
“Purchasing Spellcasting Services”), or he can be raised
by his faction if he has sufficient PA (see Chapter 11). PCs
brought back from the dead in Pathfinder Society suffer
no energy drain if brought back through raise dead. This
is different than how raise dead is normally handled—see
page 329 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.From 4.0 guide:
The basic
rule for Pathfinder Society is that if a PC dies during the
course of a scenario, he can be raised by a PC of appropriate
class and level seated at his table (paying all expected
costs), or he can be raised by an NPC in an appropriately
sized settlement (see “Purchasing Spellcasting Services”),
or he can be raised by his faction if he has sufficient PA.
If a PC cannot be raised from the dead during or after...
Bringing a character back from the dead now works exactly the same way it does in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook except that you can purchase the service with Prestige Points and can never receive the benefits or cast reincarnate. This was an intentional change, as the extra restrictions and differently-functioning rules in Pathfinder Society were deemed unnecessary.
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Bringing a character back from the dead now works exactly the same way it does in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook except that you can purchase the service with Prestige Points and can never receive the benefits or cast reincarnate. This was an intentional change, as the extra restrictions and differently-functioning rules in Pathfinder Society were deemed unnecessary.
To verify:
Raise Dead: 16 PP or 5,450 gpRestoration: 4 PP or 1,380 gp
so, to get a dead character raised in PFS now costs one of the following combinations:
1) 20 PP
2) 16 PP & 1,380 gp
3) 5,450 gp & 4 PP
4) 6,830 gp
And there is no way to split the 16 PP or 4 PP costs into a mix of PP and gp, correct?
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Callarek, don't forget that raise dead leaves you with 2 permanent negative levels, and that restoration only removes 1.
So, for correction:
To verify:
Resurrection: 32 PP or 10,910 gp
Raise Dead: 16 PP or 5,450 gp
Restoration: 4 PP or 1,380 gp
so, to get a dead character raised in PFS now costs one of the following combinations:
Raise Dead:
1) 24 PP
2) 20 PP & 1,380 gp
3) 16 PP & 2,760 gp
4) 5,450 gp & 8 PP
5) 6,830 gp & 4 PP
6) 8,210 gp
Resurrection:
1) 36 PP
2) 32 PP & 1,380 gp
3) 10,910 gp & 4 PP
4) 12,290 gp
And there is no way to split the PP costs into a mix of PP and gp, correct?
Makes me nostalgic for the days of overcap gold. And means that characters not getting raised is going to become more common. Who can afford it?
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Callarek, don't forget that raise dead leaves you with 2 permanent negative levels, and that restoration only removes 1.
For players who decide to keep the negative levels how should XP be tracked on their Chronicle sheet? And would they loose enough XP to be at the start of the lower level or at the end?
Example: A 7th level PC with 20 XPs (about to level to 8th) dies and is Raised, but not Restored. Do they go back to level 5 with 12 XPs and then get the XP for playing the adventure or do they go back to 14 XPs, get the XP for the adventure and level to 6th with 15 XPs?
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For players who decide to keep the negative levels how should XP be tracked on their Chronicle sheet? And would they loose enough XP to be at the start of the lower level or at the end?
That's not how negative levels work in Pathfinder RPG. They're basically just a set of penalties, not an actual loss of a level.
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Is this change retroactive? Even if it just goes back to Gen Con and the release of the 4.0 version, there were likely to be subsequent events where people were unaware of the change.
I didn't notice the difference (one of those things where a change summary would help), although I don't think we've had a death at the table in the past month.
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Is this change retroactive? Even if it just goes back to Gen Con and the release of the 4.0 version, there were likely to be subsequent events where people were unaware of the change.
I didn't notice the difference (one of those things where a change summary would help), although I don't think we've had a death at the table in the past month.
Retroactive?
Change comes into effect from day 1 of Gen Con, anything before that is fine.
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Is this change retroactive? Even if it just goes back to Gen Con and the release of the 4.0 version, there were likely to be subsequent events where people were unaware of the change.
I didn't notice the difference (one of those things where a change summary would help), although I don't think we've had a death at the table in the past month.
Retroactive?
Change comes into effect from day 1 of Gen Con, anything before that is fine.
She meant if a PC died after GenCon, but no one around (including local GMs/VC) knew about the change, should they go back and add the negative levels to the character now?
At least, I think that's what was meant.
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She meant if a PC died after GenCon, but no one around (including local GMs/VC) knew about the change, should they go back and add the negative levels to the character now?
This would be a good example of the kind of environmental change that table GMs would find helpful to know about as soon as possible. Even when I noticed the change in the Guide, I figured that the rule was unchanged, but was moved to the FAQ.
And yes, the negative levels should be imposed.
My fear is that the new rule will result in more "pulled punches" and soft-balling because the GM doesn't want to be a "jerk" and kill a character. Especially if resources to gain a Raise/Resto combo are not available.
I was actually thinking the opposite. Borderline tables might be less likely to take the risk of "playing up" because of the higher risk factor. This, combined with the additional cost for the raise, might slow down the economy and have a net positive benefit on the game overall.
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She meant if a PC died after GenCon, but no one around (including local GMs/VC) knew about the change, should they go back and add the negative levels to the character now?
At least, I think that's what was meant.
Yes, that is what I meant. I'm going to mention this to the local groups I encounter, but I can guarantee that no one noticed the change when it came out in the 4.0 guidelines.
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Yes, that is what I meant. I'm going to mention this to the local groups I encounter, but I can guarantee that no one noticed the change when it came out in the 4.0 guidelines.She meant if a PC died after GenCon, but no one around (including local GMs/VC) knew about the change, should they go back and add the negative levels to the character now?
At least, I think that's what was meant.
I will admit that I didn't notice. I also will say when a change like that happens it sort of needs to be made a tad more obvious.
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Personally, I would not go back and add the negative levels now. The player may not have wished to continue playing the characters with the condition, or the further cash/Prestige payment, and may have been playing a new character since, had they been informed of the change at the time.
And as most of us are just discovering the rule in the last week or so (at the same time), I don't think anyone would be gaining an unfair benefit any more than they would have if they had been raised right before the new Guide came out.