I'm sorry.. how was I ever claiming that there would be no search checks for this?
As for "you don't get perception checks to notice my fiendishly clever trap" bad DM, no doughnut.
-Sorry, not you. Look up. I was combining responses and didn't differentiate between them very well. My bad.
Furthermore, a perception check isn't necessarily going to reveal much information, either. A good perception check might give this: "you notice that none of the flagstones in this corridor have grout between them." <----- thats what i was responding to
Sorry, I didn't make that very clear. What I meant to say was that your basic "good" perception roll might not yield enough information to pinpoint the trap, only to let you know there's one somewhere in the corridor. In other words, a rogue with a high perception and a bonus for trap-finding might get to be the hero in this situation because she's the only member of the party who can pinpoint the actual loose flagstone.
It doesn't break anything, just makes some things like non-detection and the like more useful.
And it doesn't bother you at all that massively profligate use of higher-level spells is the only way to prevent the abuse of a cantrip? More power to you, then. That just doesn't sit well with me, personally, at all.
It doesn't break anything, just makes some things like non-detection and the like more useful.And it doesn't bother you at all that massively profligate use of higher-level spells is the only way to prevent the abuse of a cantrip? More power to you, then. That just doesn't sit well with me, personally, at all.
Even if detect magic wasn't at will, it would still be a concern for anyone who didn't want their magic detected. Good thing there's a first level spell that totally fixes that problem with no save.
|
If I play a game wherein the casters are okay with actually scanning EVERYTHING for magic as they move along with Detect Magic, I think I'll leave.
After all, this is what Arcane Sight is for. And I think everyone has come up with plenty of ingenious ways to hide magical things from Arcane Sight. Thanks for the ideas, everyone!
If I play a game wherein the casters are okay with actually scanning EVERYTHING for magic as they move along with Detect Magic, I think I'll leave.
After all, this is what Arcane Sight is for. And I think everyone has come up with plenty of ingenious ways to hide magical things from Arcane Sight. Thanks for the ideas, everyone!
Why? Because it doesn't meet your preconceptions about how parties used to do things back in the day where they had to walk up hill both ways to the dungeon and only the elf could multiclass?
The world is as the mechanics make it. The PC's are a groupd of adventurers who presumably would like to make it through the dungeon ALIVE and should reasonably use every tool they have at their disposal in order to do so. Detect magic spams are simply a good strategy for the CHARCTERS to use, so its no surprise that they would use it. There's nothing wrong with playing your characters smart.
|
The solution is simple. Whenever the caesar spams detect whatever a small group of something that provides almost no experience but wastes game time pops around a corner and starts a combat. A half hour later, after the easy combat is resolved you let them start on their way again.
If they think that spamming detect wastes no time they will shortly find it will waste their time and give them no experience for their effort and resources. Eventually they will learn to be more judicious about spamming stupid stuff.
Why do I hate it? I had one guy spamming detect magic to find high level rogues by their magic items. You might say I should think of that beforehand but nuts to that. Try to enjoy the game without aggravating the one guy who's working the hardest to provide that game.
|
|
I just rule that detect magic doesn't work on magic traps and burp loudly in the face of any player who tries to convince me otherwise.
Just like it doesn't detect golems, for example.
Another caster vs non-caster argument. Yawn.
I just don't let Detect Magic detect traps. Simple, really.
Yes, we did it again TOZ.
Honestly, if people are redesigning and special-ordering magical traps to be undetectable to Detect Magic, I think that's deserving of a CR increase to the trap in the same way that increasing the Perception DC does.
Honestly, if people are redesigning and special-ordering magical traps to be undetectable to Detect Magic, I think that's deserving of a CR increase to the trap in the same way that increasing the Perception DC does.
Most traps were designed based on 3.5 rules, which had limited detect magic. If you're using an older module or trap guide, then the limited detect magic ability was used in the calculation of the CR.
I kind of do. I treat detect magic on an illusion as 'interacting' with the illusion and roll a secret will save. So not an auto-detection, but a chance.You make it sound so dirty. :P
As an aside, I don't let it detect illusions either.
I think that's a fair way of handling it. As soon as you interact with it in any way (such as by casting detect magic on it), then you can see if you auto-disbelieve or believe. If so, you get something you'd believe based on the illusion fooling you, or you'd know it's fake, and get the illusion aura.
|
|
Why? Because it doesn't meet your preconceptions about how parties used to do things back in the day where they had to walk up hill both ways to the dungeon and only the elf could multiclass?
No, but I'd probably make a comment along those lines.
Really, it's because I play this game because it's fun. Not because it's asinine. Moving the party at a half to a quarter of your normal speed just so you can scan every inch of the room for magic is no fun. Nor does it seem realistic to me that a character really might concentrate on one spell for eight or twelve hours in a day when he's got other stuff to do. It definitely doesn't seem good.I understand a little Detect Magic spamming. There's nothing wrong with making it SOP as you bust down the door. Make it a standard sweep every time you look at treasure, that's cool. Or down specific, suspicious-looking hallways. But if the bard tells you it's two miles to the dark castle, you'll never make it in time, and the party wizard says 'I'm going to be Detecting Magic the whole time', then something is wrong here.
Granted, it's possible he doesn't understand how slow this will make the party. It's possible he doesn't understand what kind of strain that would put his character under. But these can be explained gently, easily, and quickly. If he still insists on casting Detect Magic every 60 feet, that's very bad.
And it's MUCH worse if he ever says 'But I was Detecting Magic the whole time!'. No good can come of that phrase. If that continues, that's not a group I can play with. Not a group I can have fun in. I'm out.
Sure, I may have exaggerated a little. On the internet. Me. It happens. But I don't want to play a game where the characters are going over every dungeon tile with a fine-tooth comb and treating every kobold nest like a bomb squad treats a nuclear device. Detect Magic where it makes sense. Then move on.
No, but I'd probably make a comment along those lines.
Really, it's because I play this game because it's fun. Not because it's asinine. Moving the party at a half to a quarter of your normal speed just so you can scan every inch of the room for magic is no fun.
Neither is a lot of dungeon delving. Being hit with an axe, having to use the "facilities" when there aren't any, crawling through freezing water, becoming a host to infectious leeches, tediously searching the area for traps for example, aren't much fun, but it's what adventurers do.
The idea though is that the DM can skip ahead to the important stuff when the detect magic or the rogue's perception DO find something.
Nor does it seem realistic to me that a character really might concentrate on one spell for eight or twelve hours in a day when he's got other stuff to do. It definitely doesn't seem good.
Depends on how much concentration it is. People spend that long all day programming for example.
I understand a little Detect Magic spamming. There's nothing wrong with making it SOP as you bust down the door. Make it a standard sweep every time you look at treasure, that's cool. Or down specific, suspicious-looking hallways. But if the bard tells you it's two miles to the dark castle, you'll never make it in time, and the party wizard says 'I'm going to be Detecting Magic the whole time', then something is wrong here.
2 miles is definitely excessive. That problem solves itself: twice as many random encounters.
Granted, it's possible he doesn't understand how slow this will make the party.
If he's on horseback it won't slow them at all. If they're walking and its a human/elf/orc caster it will drop their speed from 60 per round to 30 per round. If the rogue is searching for traps the party is moving that slowly anyway. If the party has a dwarf, gnome, halfling or anyone clanking along in heavy armor its a reduction of 40 to 30 feet: hardly worth noting.
It's possible he doesn't understand what kind of strain that would put his character under. But these can be explained gently, easily, and quickly. If he still insists on casting Detect Magic every 60 feet, that's very bad.
GIven the above what's so bad about it?
And it's MUCH worse if he ever says 'But I was Detecting Magic the whole time!'. No good can come of that phrase. If that continues, that's not a group I can play with. Not a group I can have fun in. I'm out.
Why not? Its no different than "i was searching the entire time and you didn't give me a roll" many DM's are so hot to have the PC's fall into their clever traps that they forget that they are trying to have their characters NOT fall into said traps. 'I win and you activate the trap because i ignore your characters ability and what you as a player told me' is totally not cool. The dm presents the world to the players, and he shouldn't withhold the parts that players are specifically looking for.
Sure, I may have exaggerated a little. On the internet. Me. It happens. But I don't want to play a game where the characters are going over every dungeon tile with a fine-tooth comb and treating every kobold nest like a bomb squad treats a nuclear device. Detect Magic where it makes sense. Then move on.
Every Corridor no. But if your players aren't treating kobold lairs like an armed nuclear device you haven't been having enough fun with your kobolds...
Granted, it's possible he doesn't understand how slow this will make the party.If he's on horseback it won't slow them at all. If they're walking and its a human/elf/orc caster it will drop their speed from 60 per round to 30 per round. If the rogue is searching for traps the party is moving that slowly anyway. If the party has a dwarf, gnome, halfling or anyone clanking along in heavy armor its a reduction of 40 to 30 feet: hardly worth noting
Afraid you've made the mistake you're quoting.
Wizard casts DM, then walks forward 30 feet. He's skipped the first 30 feet in his DM. Next round, he get's 1st round on the 60 feet ahead of him, then walks forward 30 feet. He gives up 2nd and 3rd round effects on the 30 feet he just walked through. Or, he walks forward and then takes 60 feet of effect, gaining 2nd round on the 30 in front of him, and 1st round on the 30 feet beyond that. Either way, if he keeps moving, he's lost benefits on a large section of his area. In other words, the real cost of movement is 30 feet every other round.
Now, if he doesn't detect any magic, he can just keep moving forward 30 per round. However, if he's on horseback, he may not have sufficient time to actually get the benefit of the DM before the horse has moved, depending on it's current speed. In other words, the wizard is going to have to move his horse forward at most the range of his detect, slower if he detects anything.
The other issue you're missing is, concentration has long term endurance issues.
Afraid you've made the mistake you're quoting.
Nope.
Wizard casts DM, then walks forward 30 feet. He's skipped the first 30 feet in his DM.
Round 1 The wizard casts DM and knows the presence/absence of magic. They move 30 feet.
Round 2 The wizard moves 30 feet (move action) and concentrates (standard action)Round 3 The wizard: Wizard moves 30 feet and concentrates.
For horses, the characters actions take place mid move, not at the beginning. So even if you're parsing the system down to increments the wizard does have to stop for the casting round, checks 60 feet ahead
On his next round the horse moves 40, he checks out to 60, the horse moves 40... hmmm.. that would give him 20 unchecked feet of movement, or he could slow the horse from 80 to 60 : not that big of a loss if you're going 2 miles.
-If he detects something, he wants to be going slower. Its not like there's anything that shows up on DM that a party doesn't want to stop for for one reason or another. Even if there's a quaals feather token out in the middle of nowhere its worth picking up/investigating.
The other issue you're missing is, concentration has long term endurance issues.
By the rules they do not, so i don't see what i'm "missing" except not playing the game the way you want it to be played. I don't think he's concentrating any more than the rogue who's stopping to search for traps.
Illusion traps are dealt with by Will Saves or True Sight
Only poorly designed ones are beat by true seeing. Silent image covering sepia snake sigil (large writing on a wall). That's only using 3rd level spells.
True seeing also only sees visual aspects of illusions. A person with true seeing who encounters an illusion with will not automatically know it is an illusion, and in many cases that will not entitle them to a save. Against a good illusionist, the words "will save" should never come up.