I've been pondering a class combo to make a "Red Mage" similar to the class/job from the Final Fantasy series.
Basically, it's a class that combines several major aspects of other classes together. It was always able to wield light armor, rapiers and other duelist-style weapons, and could cast lower level white and black(arcane and divine) spells. Sounds too good to be true, but one major balancing factors has always been that the Red Mage never excelled in any of those areas the way a single-class character could; it could never out-fight a fighter, or out-cast a white/black mage(wizard and cleric). In later FF games, Red Mages could enhance their melee attacks with elemental spells, similar to a Duskblade's Arcane Channeling, but less potent and for longer periods.
I stumbled upon an idea for capturing most of the flavor of this job in 3.5, but is far from optimal. But, I'm looking for some ideas for rounding it out, preferably from players who know what a Red Mage is.
Again, going for flavor, not optimization.
For the game I may be making this cahracter for, we are starting new characters at 6th level.
My idea:
Swashbuckler 3, Duskblade 3
This would give the character Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, as well as the Duskblade's Arcane Channeling to mimic the elemental melee enhancing magic. Also, Cunning Strike would allow the Red Mage to add their INT bonus to melee damage rolls with Rapier-like(Weapon Finesse) weapons. Maybe a couple levels of Favored Soul to add the white-magic capabilities?
Again, this is all in theory, none of it's been played out yet. Anyone else have any ideas, or different version of Red Mages they might have made?
Perhaps you could modify the bard as the base? Leave the curing magic on the spell list, add in some elemental magic, remove bardic performance and knowledge, then add in some of the abilities you've already mentioned.
Bard is a great idea, it had completely slipped my mind. It's got a good base of similar abilities right from the get-go, being able to use rapiers, some curing magic, etc. I could get with my DM about removing Bardic Music and Knowledge, maybe adding the enhancing part as a low-damage component, perhaps an additional 1d6 of a single energy type of damage for X rounds or something. This would eliminate the Duskblade levels, helping keep mutliclassing down. Thanks!
After sitting down and looking over the bard, this could be just the thing, with a few slight adjustments:
-Remove Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge.
-Replace with Cunning Strike(add INT bonus to melee damage)and Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
-Replace CHA with INT as spell modifying/dependent stat.
-Add a new spell, "Energy Weapon", to the spell list.
The spell Energy Weapon would work just like the existing spell Sonic Weapon(from the Spell Compendium), except that instead of dealing sonic damage, it could deal other energy types, such as Fire, Ice, Acid, etc. All in all, I feel it's balanced in comparison to Sonic Weapon. In most cases Sonic Weapon is actually more effective, it's just that Energy Weapon fits the flavor of Red Mage better IMO.
Ideas? Opinions?
Are you going to alter the spell list at all otherwise?
I had thought about it, but honestly a lot of bard spells lend themselves nicely to the buff/enfeeble portion of being a Red Mage as is. It's one of those things where we could go crazy with 1,000 changes that'd work, or leave it as is and it still work well. The bard spell list is diverse enough that it can do a lot of things pretty well, all without exceeding the power level of other dedicated casters. Balance is a tricky thing, and one thing I am definitely trying to be careful of is to not "out-wizard a wizard". I'm going to try and play this out in a campaign soon and see how it goes along the way.
There are definitely some other spells I'd like to see on the list(that were used in the actual FF games), such as Stoneskin, but again, balance comes into play. A few energy typed Evocation spells would be a nice addition, but not entirely necessary.
Since I'm truthfully not that experienced in making a working home-brewed class, I figure the closer it is to an existing class, the better the chances of it actually getting to play it.
I had thought about it, but honestly a lot of bard spells lend themselves nicely to the buff/enfeeble portion of being a Red Mage as is. It's one of those things where we could go crazy with 1,000 changes that'd work, or leave it as is and it still work well. The bard spell list is diverse enough that it can do a lot of things pretty well, all without exceeding the power level of other dedicated casters. Balance is a tricky thing, and one thing I am definitely trying to be careful of is to not "out-wizard a wizard". I'm going to try and play this out in a campaign soon and see how it goes along the way.
There are definitely some other spells I'd like to see on the list(that were used in the actual FF games), such as Stoneskin, but again, balance comes into play. A few energy typed Evocation spells would be a nice addition, but not entirely necessary.
Since I'm truthfully not that experienced in making a working home-brewed class, I figure the closer it is to an existing class, the better the chances of it actually getting to play it.
I was merely asking because the Red mage from the original FFI and FFV may not be identical to that of FFIII (on the DS, the only one I haven't gotten to play). IIRC they had some blasting spells (Fire, Bolt, Ice), some curing magic, some protective magic, etc. The bard list is still great, I was merely thinking of those evocations spells. Customizing the spell list by adding a few of those won't drastically increase the class's power nor the complications, but as others have suggested just altering the energy types of some spells might work as well. Post this up when you're done, I'd like to see it!
I was merely asking because the Red mage from the original FFI and FFV may not be identical to that of FFIII (on the DS, the only one I haven't gotten to play). IIRC they had some blasting spells (Fire, Bolt, Ice), some curing magic, some protective magic, etc. The bard list is still great, I was merely thinking of those evocations spells. Customizing the spell list by adding a few of those won't drastically increase the class's power nor the complications, but as others have suggested just altering the energy types of some spells might work as well. Post this up when you're done, I'd like to see it!
You've got a very good point, but I was hesitant to really go all out for evocation blaster-type spells for game balance. This is purely my lack of class creation experience talking. Whenever I've homebrewed something, I tend to lean toward under-powering it first, and then building it up to a balanced point as necessary. There are a few nifty energy-based spells from the Spell Compendium on the Bard spell list that would work, but maybe tossing some of the Lesser Orb of X energy spells onto the list would keep more in flavor of the class.
There have been many tweaks to the Red Mage over the course of the Final Fantasy series, but the big components in my first post have typically been present since FF1. The best example I can think of, of the kind of Red Mage I am trying to stat up for 3.5 is the Red Mage job from Final Fantasy XI: Online. That version of the Red Mage culminates aspects of the job from previous games well, and makes it the game's expert on buff/debuffing spells compared to Black Mages who nuke for damage, and White Mages who heal. The buff/debuff aspect is covered very well by the Bard spell list, but it certainly could use some evocation just for more versatility, and keeping with what it could do in FF.
I was merely asking because the Red mage from the original FFI and FFV may not be identical to that of FFIII (on the DS, the only one I haven't gotten to play). IIRC they had some blasting spells (Fire, Bolt, Ice), some curing magic, some protective magic, etc. The bard list is still great, I was merely thinking of those evocations spells. Customizing the spell list by adding a few of those won't drastically increase the class's power nor the complications, but as others have suggested just altering the energy types of some spells might work as well. Post this up when you're done, I'd like to see it!You've got a very good point, but I was hesitant to really go all out for evocation blaster-type spells for game balance. This is purely my lack of class creation experience talking. Whenever I've homebrewed something, I tend to lean toward under-powering it first, and then building it up to a balanced point as necessary. There are a few nifty energy-based spells from the Spell Compendium on the Bard spell list that would work, but maybe tossing some of the Lesser Orb of X energy spells onto the list would keep more in flavor of the class.
There have been many tweaks to the Red Mage over the course of the Final Fantasy series, but the big components in my first post have typically been present since FF1. The best example I can think of, of the kind of Red Mage I am trying to stat up for 3.5 is the Red Mage job from Final Fantasy XI: Online. That version of the Red Mage culminates aspects of the job from previous games well, and makes it the game's expert on buff/debuffing spells compared to Black Mages who nuke for damage, and White Mages who heal. The buff/debuff aspect is covered very well by the Bard spell list, but it certainly could use some evocation just for more versatility, and keeping with what it could do in FF.
I'd wondered how the class changed. I was thinking of some of the following spells:
1-burning hands, chill touch, shocking grasp
2-acid arrow
3-fireball, lightning bolt
4-icestorm
5-cone of cold
6-chain lightning
This covers some of the iconic blasting spells but not all of them. No disintegrate or magic missile, for example. I don't see adding blasting spells as being overpowering, but as I don't game at your table I can't speak for what may happen if you add them. Since you mention they're great at buffing/debuffing, would you then add those kinds of spells to the class spell list instead?
I'd wondered how the class changed. I was thinking of some of the following spells:
1-burning hands, chill touch, shocking grasp
2-acid arrow
3-fireball, lightning bolt
4-icestorm
5-cone of cold
6-chain lightningThis covers some of the iconic blasting spells but not all of them. No disintegrate or magic missile, for example. I don't see adding blasting spells as being overpowering, but as I don't game at your table I can't speak for what may happen if you add them. Since you mention they're great at buffing/debuffing, would you then add those kinds of spells to the class spell list instead?
I'd like to see about coming up with a simple mechanic for subbing in elemental type damage, without adding a few dozen different spells and trying to remember them all. The spells you suggest above I think would cover that area pretty well; they do diferent enough damage types on their own, and cover most different types of area effect, lines, missile types, etc. Maybe as a full round action, the Red Mage can change the energy type a spell is based on to another(fire, ice, acid, etc.). In FF:XI, that's one of a Red Mage's best tricks is to enhance his weapons and grant himself an energy shield of specific element, depending on the situation. In keeping to a similar limited spell progression as the Bard, this would help eliminate redundant spells simply because they do some other type of energy damage. Fireball would cover the big, radial area effect, as Lightning Bolt would cover the line area effect, without having to use up spells known just to change the type.
But, their main focus in spellcasting is the buff/debuff types of spells. So, to maybe keep them in check, we'd need to offset their elemental damage spells. We could add Fireball to the spell list, but maybe make it a 4th level spell instead of 3rd? What I don't want is for the Red Mage to be a "better" wizard; it certainly shares a bunch of the pure wizard's tricks, but should not be able to out-do the wizard from a pure spellcasting point. But, then we also have to be careful not to out-do the Bard that it's based on either.
Don't mind me, I tend to over-think things lol.
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I'd wondered how the class changed. I was thinking of some of the following spells:
1-burning hands, chill touch, shocking grasp
2-acid arrow
3-fireball, lightning bolt
4-icestorm
5-cone of cold
6-chain lightningThis covers some of the iconic blasting spells but not all of them. No disintegrate or magic missile, for example. I don't see adding blasting spells as being overpowering, but as I don't game at your table I can't speak for what may happen if you add them. Since you mention they're great at buffing/debuffing, would you then add those kinds of spells to the class spell list instead?
But, their main focus in spellcasting is the buff/debuff types of spells. So, to maybe keep them in check, we'd need to offset their elemental damage spells. We could add Fireball to the spell list, but maybe make it a 4th level spell instead of 3rd? What I don't want is for the Red Mage to be a "better" wizard; it certainly shares a bunch of the pure wizard's tricks, but should not be able to out-do the wizard from a pure spellcasting point. But, then we also have to be careful not to out-do the Bard that it's based on either.
Don't mind me, I tend to over-think things lol.
I wouldn't increase the spell levels. Keep in mind that bards have a slower spell progression. If you keep fireball as a 3rd level spell they won't get it until 7th level, so it's at the same point a wizard would gain 4th level spells.
Look up the feat Energy Substitution from the Complete Arcane. I'm going off memory here, but from what I remember it lets you change the energy type of a spell to another type of your choosing, with no change in spell level. I think it's for a specific energy, so you could make it a class feature, given every 2 levels or so, and each time you get it you can pick a new energy type.
I like this, it's a pretty straight-forward way to get to the energy-sub idea. On paper it may look like an awful lot of bonus feats, but considering the feats simply change a damage type of an existing spell, I don't think that's too out of balance.
Maybe at 12th level(or higher) the Red Mage could get Rapid Metamagic as a sort of capstone, so that subbing an energy type wouldn't take any longer than normal. A player could just as easily take the feat, but something like that just feels like it should be there from the get go. When some feats are almost necessary for a class, I tend to think it should be part of that class.