Yes, I know, there are other threads discussing this. I didn't want to interrupt their process of getting something balanced, because there are many options I'd like to see. Here is my take on a druid who selects shapeshifter as his Nature Bond (instead of an Animal Companion or a Domain). First, remove all wild shape advancement from the original druid's table, as well as A Thousand Faces. Then, apply the following:
- The druid can change shape a number of times per day equal to their level until level 17, where it becomes at will. Reverting to one's original shape doesn't count. If he falls unconscious, he doesn't revert to his normal shape. If he dies, he does.
- The total wild shape duration for a day is one hour and a half per level: from level 16 onwards, the druid can stay in wild shape all day long.
- A druid knows as many forms as he has levels, and only forms he had studied or met. At each level, he can change his known forms.
- At level 1, the size allowed is the druid's original size,
at level 4, he can select a form one size category smaller than his original size,
at level 7, he can select a form one size category larger,
at level 10, two sizes smaller,
at level 13, two sizes larger,
at level 16, three sizes smaller,
at level 19, three sizes larger.
Even if the druid has access to a wild shape option, he's always limited by the size he's currently allowed.
- At level 1, the wild shape functions like Beast Shape I,
at level 4, like Alter Self,
at level 5, like Beast Shape II,
at level 6, like Plant Shape I,
at level 7, like Elemental Body I,
at level 8, like Beast Shape III,
at level 9, like Plant Shape II,
at level 10, like Elemental Body II,
at level 11, like Beast Shape IV,
at level 12, like Plant Shape III,
at level 13, like Elemental Body III,
at level 14, like Form of the Dragon I,
at level 15, like Giant Form I,
at level 16, like Elemental Body IV,
at level 17, like Form of the Dragon II,
at level 18, like Giant Form II,
at level 19, like Form of the Dragon III.
- At level 1, changing shape is a full-round action incurring attacks of opportunity,
at level 3, it's a standard action still incurring attacks of opportunity,
at level 6, it's a standard action with no attack of opportunity,
at level 9, it's a move action,
at level 12, it's a swift action,
at level 15, it's a free action,
at level 18, it can be used as an immediate action.
- At level 3 and every three levels afterwards, the druid gains a feat that can be only used while in an appropriate wild shape (Flyby can only be used while flying, INA/claws only works with claws, etc). These feats have to be selected in the following list: Natural Spell, any Monster feat, any [Wild] feat, Animal Devotion.
- At level 2, the druid can communicate with animals (only) of the same species he's morphed into;
at level 4, he can also speak any language he knows while in wild shape;
at level 6, when the druid uses the Alter Self version of his wild shape ability, he can also speak the natural language of the race he morphs into (if he morphs into an orc, he can speak orcish);
at level 8, the druid can also speak the natural language of any creature he morphs into.
- At level 18, the druid can, once per day, transform into an empowered creature for a number of rounds equal to his class level, gaining an inherent bonus of +4 to his physical attributes;
at level 19, he gains a second use of this ability;
at level 20, he gain a third.
- At level 8, the druid can now control which equipment is melded and which is kept and adapted to their new shape;
at level 11, he gets a +2 inherent bonus to his natural armor while wild shaped;
at level 15, he gains Fast Healing 2 while wild shaped;
at level 18, he gains 25% Fortification while wild shaped;
at level 20, he gains DR 5/magic while wild shaped, and his type changes to Shapechanger.
- At level 10, a wildshaped druid's natural attacks are considered magic for the sole purpose of defeating DR;
at level 14, they are also considered like silver or cold iron weapons;
at level 18, they are also considered like adamantine weapons.
Probably overpowered, I'm sure. To balance this a bit, this druid could lose bonus spells from high Wisdom, as well as the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature Ally. Perhaps it's completely different from a druid, more like a remake of Master of Many Forms.
Your option seems sort of like a direct rip off of mine. May I ask why not just use mine, what is wrong with the option I created?
and at first glance it does seem a little O.P.
Not necessarily true, but just from my first glace.
and actually, I think that I was the only one creating an option like this >.> I've not seen anyone work on it besides myself, until you.
I should finish mine.
ADDENDUM to the first post: Having access to all these options might seem too much, and I'd reintroduce the HD limitation from 3.5: a druid can't morph into a creature with more HD than he has.
Also, I wondered for a bit if there were other polymorph(self) spells in Pathfinder. Not finding any, let's introduce this:
- at level 3, the Beast Shape spells can be used to morph into a Vermin;
- at level 7, the Beast Shape spells can be used to morph into a Magical Beast;
- at level 11, Beast Shape/Alter Self can be used to morph into a Monstrous Humanoid;
- at level 15, wild shape can be used to morph into a specific member of the chosen race;
- at level 18, wild shape can be used to morph into an object, animated object, or construct;
- at level 20, the ability to wild shape all day long into something younger makes the druid gain the Timeless Body ability.
Yes, more options, thus more power. The other limitations still apply, though (size, number of shapes known, HD limit). And, because a shapeshifting-focused druid can use wild shape from level 1 and some shapes give bonuses in natural settings, he has no real use for his other druidic abilities, which I'd get rid of: nature sense, wild empathy, woodland stride, trackless step, resist nature's lure, venom immunity.
Your option seems sort of like a direct rip off of mine. May I ask why not just use mine, what is wrong with the option I created? (...)
I just saw your post after starting to write this one.
I'm sorry you think it's a rip off, because I wrote it myself. Sure, I might not be the first to use the option of linking advanced wild shape options to a third kind of Nature Bond. However, the list of options is my doing, and I didn't want to pollute with a truckload of additional options another thread seeking to balance something. Can we cross-reference each other? Once I have your thread URL, I'll comment on it (and I'll probably write that nothing is wrong with it :-).
Thanks for your input.
Check out the last post of the thread.
It's my newest update on the option.
It's not officially in beta testing stages.
The thread was literally right under yours.
I started my option back in Jan 13th, around Jan 10th or earlier is when I actually started work on it though.
Also, house rules for the polymorph subschool:
1) Barring special effects (the house-ruled 8th level ability of keeping one's gear, the Wild enchantment) nonmagical gear melds into the new form. For all intent and purpose, consider that it disappeared. Whether it's the armor, the shield, the weapons, etc, it's not accessible anymore until the polymorphed creature changes back.
2) Wild enchantment comes in three forms: for a +1 armor bonus, the enchanted item doesn't meld into your new form (you keep its bonuses and penalties); for a +2 armor bonus, the item melds into your form but is still recognizable (your shape is altered somewhat - you keep its bonuses, and its penalties are halved); for the +3 of RAW, you get all bonuses without the penalties, and the item isn't seen. In this last case, if a polymorphed monk was wearing such an armor, he would be able to use his no-armor related abilities.
3) Magical items are melded into your form, but they continue to function. Things that have to be read can't work because you can't read them. Things that have to be in hand to function do so only if you have it in your hand before the change. Enhancement bonuses linked to AC are kept even if the armor disappears. Same with shields and weapons.
For instance, a druid with a +2 dragonhide breastplate, a +1 heavy shield, and a +2 weapon can become a bear with a +2 enhancement bonus to its armor bonus to AC (the breastplate disappears but the enhancement bonus stays), another +1 to its AC from the enhancement bonus to its shield bonus (but not the shield itself), and +2 to its attack and damage rolls.
...still overpowered, surely. In fact, I'm realizing that instead of going bottom-up, I'm listing everything that's possibly good, and going down from there.
So? Thoughts?
As a way to limit this druid's abilities, we can include the following. First, remove all wild shape options (spells) from the previous posts.
At 1st level, the druid has to select a path between the following:
- woodlands druid
- mountains druid
- deserts druid
- sea-based druid
- airborne druid
- civilized druid
- alien druid
- undead druid
He regains the woodland stride and trackless step abilities, but only in relation with their path.
- A woodlands druid is more related to the standard druid and lives in forests. His wild shape options are the following (including any creature available from those spells, notably Magical Beasts):
- level 1, Beast Shape I
- level 3, Plant Shape I
- level 5, Elemental Body I
- level 7, Beast Shape II
- level 9, Plant Shape II
- level 11, Elemental Body II
- level 13, Beast Shape III
- level 15, Plant Shape III
- level 17, Elemental Body III
- level 19, Beast Shape IV
When taking Elemental Body, they can select any elemental. - A mountains druid lives in the mountains and can only select Earth when choosing an elemental shape; but he can select other Earth creatures as well.
- level 1, Beast Shape I
- level 3, Plant Shape I
- level 5, Elemental Body I
- level 7, Beast Shape II
- level 9, Elemental Body II
- level 11, Beast Shape III
- level 13, Giant Form I
- level 15, Elemental Body III
- level 17, Giant Form II
- level 19, Elemental Body IV - A deserts druid lives in the deserts and can only select Fire when choosing an elemental shape; but he can select other Fire creatures as well.
- level 1, Beast Shape I
- level 3, can select a Vermin shape
- level 5, Elemental Body I
- level 7, Plant Shape I
- level 9, Beast Shape II
- level 11, Elemental Shape II
- level 13, Beast Shape III
- level 15, Elemental Body III
- level 17, Beast Shape IV
- level 19, Elemental Body IV - A sea-based druid lives in, on, or next to the sea. He can only select Water Elemental or water-related creatures when using Elemental Body.
- level 1, Beast Shape I
- level 3, Elemental Body I
- level 5, Beast Shape II
- level 7, Elemental Body II
- level 9, Plant Shape I
- level 11, Beast Shape III
- level 13, Elemental Body III
- level 15, Plant Shape II
- level 17, Beast Shape IV
- level 19, Elemental Body IV - An airborne druid lives anywhere, but prefers to spend his time in the air. His Elemental Body choices are Air elemenal or air creatures.
- level 1, Beast Shape I
- level 3, Elemental Body I
- level 5, Beast Shape II
- level 7, Elemental Body II
- level 9, Beast Shape III
- level 11, Elemental Body III
- level 13, Elemental Body IV
- level 15, Form of the Dragon I
- level 17, Form of the Dragon II
- level 19, Form of the Dracon III - A civilized druid spends his time in or near cities.
- level 1, Alter Self
- level 3, Beast Shape I
- level 5, can select a Vermin shape
- level 7, Beast Shape II
- level 9, can select a Monstrous Humanoid shape
- level 11, Beast Shape III
- level 13, can wild shape into specific members of the chosen race
- level 15, Giant Form I
- level 17, can select a Construct shape
- level 19, Giant Form II - An alien druid is related to otherworldly creatures. He's generally not tied down to one place, unless there's Abomination activity in there.
- level 1, Alter Self
- level 3, long limbs (like Aberrant sorcerer)
- level 5, Beast Shape I
- level 7, can select a Vermin shape
- level 9, Beast Shape II
- level 11, can select an Ooze shape
- level 13, Beast Shape III
- level 15, can select an Abomination shape
- level 17, Beast Shape IV
- level 19, can select a Construct shape - An undead druid is unusual. Their main interests revolve around Death. They can Channel Energy and can choose Positive or Negative each time they do so.
- level 1, Alter Self
- level 3, the shape you take can have the appearance of a fresh corpse
- level 5, can select a Zombie shape
- level 7, can select a Ghoul shape
- level 9, healed by Negative energy
- level 11, can select a Skeletal Champion shape
- level 13, can select a Shadow shape (incorporeal)
- level 15, can select a Ghost shape
- level 17, can select a Vampire shape
- level 19, can select a Lich shape
I have an inkling that it has already been done...
I like versatility...
- at 7th level, for two daily uses of Wild Shape, the druid can incorporate one aspect from a creature he can morph into with a new shape. That can be like adding wings added to a land-based animal, adding a different type of natural attack (pincers, stinger, etc) or anything else. This costs a full-round action that incurs AoOs.
- at 11th level, for one daily use, the druid can incorporate such a new aspect while already wild shaped. This costs a standard action with no AoOs.
- at 15th level, for two daily uses, the druid can incorporate two such aspects when choosing a new form. This still costs a full-round action, but without AoOs.
- at level 17, since his uses of wild shape become at will, the druid can do this as many times as he wants, using a move action for each (he can thus change two aspects by spending the two move actions he gets in a round).
See I dislike your system for a few reasons..
You're giving the druid too much versatility that he's literally NO LONGER a druid.
He can take any damned form he well pleases, it's a Transmutation Wizard, not a Druid.
Secondly, he's overpowered.
THIRD
There are so many rules and alterations that it's just NOT an efficient system.
My system is simple, clean, and quick, not to mention keeps within the flavour of what a Druid is.
But anyway, that's just my opinion, I wish you good luck with your system.
See I dislike your system for a few reasons
You're giving the druid too much versatility that he's literally NO LONGER a druid.
He can take any damned form he well pleases, it's a Transmutation Wizard, not a Druid.
Secondly, he's overpowered.
I know the first proposal was too much, I'm coming with other ways to limit it. However, wrapping this under "transmutation wizard" is completely false. The aim is not to have a guy in a flashy robe morphing for a few seconds, the aim is to have a guy that can spend a long time in another shape. If you know what Warshaper and Master of Many Forms are, you know what I'm trying to do. In fact, we could do with a completely different class
THIRD
There are so many rules and alterations that it's just NOT an efficient system.My system is simple, clean, and quick, not to mention keeps within the flavour of what a Druid is.
Do not forget, as I said before, that I don't intend this thread to be an opponent of yours, not does my system opposes yours, so there's no reason to get antagonistic.
But anyway, that's just my opinion, I wish you good luck with your system.
The same for you.
First of all: Eyolf, you're not the only one allowed to come up with conversions of classes. Sometimes people just have different ideas about what they want to see in a given class, or otherwise have fun designing classes. I really don't think this was meant to be a personal attack against you and all the hard work you've put into your own variant.
Louis, I kind of like the idea of terrain-based druid variants, but it feels like that's too much extra complication. Also the otherworldly and undead-based variants really don't seem to fit the druid concept. However, I could totally see those working as some sort of prestige class, because they are cool. Probably horribly overpowered, but cool lol...
Overall, it does feel like your variant is still overpowered and, even worse, way too complex. I would personally remove the following abilities altogether, because they feel like "too much" and/or you could duplicate the effect with a magic item or spell:
- At level 3 and every three levels afterwards, the druid gains a feat that can be only used while in an appropriate wild shape (Flyby can only be used while flying, INA/claws only works with claws, etc). These feats have to be selected in the following list: Natural Spell, any Monster feat, any [Wild] feat, Animal Devotion.
- At level 18, the druid can, once per day, transform into an empowered creature for a number of rounds equal to his class level, gaining an inherent bonus of +4 to his physical attributes;
at level 19, he gains a second use of this ability;
at level 20, he gain a third.
- at level 14, they (natural attacks) are also considered like silver or cold iron weapons;
at level 18, they are also considered like adamantine weapons.
I would also get rid of the following:
- at level 11, he gets a +2 inherent bonus to his natural armor while wild shaped;
at level 15, he gains Fast Healing 2 while wild shaped;
at level 18, he gains 25% Fortification while wild shaped;
I love the warshaper class, and these abilities are totally cool and probably not overpowered for the levels you're assigning them, but it feels like Too Much. Remember, the warshaper only got these abilities in exchange for totally losing spellcasting progression. (Well, okay, it also got good BAB and HD...) Pathfinder is backwards-compatible, so anyone playing a shifting-focused druid could choose to take the warshaper if they really want those abilities.
Similarly, I would eliminate these, because while they're totally awesome and would make for a great shapeshifting class or prestige class (maybe an updated Master of Many Forms that works with wild shape), they don't feel druidy to me--the druid should be taking on natural shapes, not twisting them into unnatural combinations:
- at 7th level, for two daily uses of Wild Shape, the druid can incorporate one aspect from a creature he can morph into with a new shape. That can be like adding wings added to a land-based animal, adding a different type of natural attack (pincers, stinger, etc) or anything else. This costs a full-round action that incurs AoOs.
- at 11th level, for one daily use, the druid can incorporate such a new aspect while already wild shaped. This costs a standard action with no AoOs.
- at 15th level, for two daily uses, the druid can incorporate two such aspects when choosing a new form. This still costs a full-round action, but without AoOs.
- at level 17, since his uses of wild shape become at will, the druid can do this as many times as he wants, using a move action for each (he can thus change two aspects by spending the two move actions he gets in a round).
As for the kinds of forms they can assume, I would definitely keep Vermin, but I would move Alter Self back to a later level (druids are supposed to be focused on the natural world, not so much with sentient creatures). I like the idea of Magical Beast shapes, and with the Pathfinderized version of Beast Shape they probably wouldn't be overpowered, but the "feel" seems off. I feel like druids should be focused on animals and stuff, rather than pegasi and displacer beasts. Of course, that can totally vary based on your world description, but I would maybe limit them to Magical Beasts with an Int of 2? Not sure about that.
Lol on the other hand, I totally agree with giving them Form of the Dragon, so my opinion there isn't logically consistent...
Also, I don't like all of the level-based changes to the action required to shapeshift (standard action, free action, etc.) While I like the idea of the druid getting faster at shifting, 1) there are already a number of feats and prestige class abilities out there that address this and 2) it feels too complicated, again--the rules for shapechanging are complex enough already without having to remember minor modifications every three levels. If you wanted to keep the idea, I would start with the normal way (standard action, no AoO), then advance it to a move action at maybe 7th-10th level and a swift action at 15th level or so. Much less complicated and much easier to keep track of.
Now, I'm just shooting from the hip when I say all this, I haven't sat down and "crunched the numbers," but those are just my impressions.
Well if we're gonna cross reference, then here is mine.
And the link with out the coding so no one thinks I'm tricking them.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/communityContent/houseRules/natureBondShifterOptionDruidsWIPPEACH&pa ge=2
BTW, it's not at the top of page 2, it's near the bottom.
UPDATE
Thanks everyone for your insightful remarks. Using them, I have come up with an updated version of the proposed class variant (a Druid using his Natural Bond to enhance his shape-shifting abilities). Using the "regular" Druid class as base, this variant supersedes the following abilities: Nature Bond, Wild Shape, and A Thousand Faces.
- The druid can change shape a number of times per day equal to their level until level 20, where it becomes at will (and his gains the Shapechanger subtype). Reverting to one's original shape doesn't count. If he falls unconscious, he doesn't revert to his normal shape. If he dies, he does.
- The total wild shape duration for a day is one hour and a half per level (from level 16 onwards, the druid can stay in wild shape all day long). This duration isn't linked to the number of changes per day like it is for the regular druid; the Shapeshifting-focused druid can mix and match his number of changes and his duration as he sees fit.
For instance, a level 4 druid using this Nature Bond variant can change shapes 4 times during the day and has a total duration of six hours. He can use a wolf shape for 5 hours straight, and each of his three other shapes for twenty minutes each.
- Even if the druid could use several options, he only knows as many forms as he has levels (for instance, a level 3 druid has access to 3 spell-like wild shape forms, but his total number of shapes known is only 3). Except for Elementals, he can only use forms he had met [i]and/i] studied (he needs to spend at least an hour observing how the form lives in its natural environment). At each new level, he can change his known forms. The druid is also limited in shapes, even if he had studied them: he can’t change into a shape that has more HD than he has character levels, and he can’t change into a shape smaller or bigger than what his level allows.
- At level 1, the size allowed is the druid's original size;
at level 4, he can select a form one size category smaller than his original size;
at level 7, he can select a form one size category larger;
at level 10, two sizes smaller;
at level 13, two sizes larger;
at level 16, three sizes smaller;
at level 19, three sizes larger.
- At level 1, the wild shape functions like Beast Shape I;
at level 2, like Tree Shape;
at level 3, like Plant Shape I;
at level 4, like Elemental Body I;
at level 5, he can use Beast Shape to morph into a Vermin;
at level 6, like Beast Shape II;
at level 7, like Plant Shape II;
at level 8, like Elemental Body II;
at level 9, like Beast Shape III;
at level 10, like Plant Shape III;
at level 11, like Elemental Body III;
at level 12, like Alter Self (replacing the Thousand Faces ability);
at level 13, like Beast Shape IV;
at level 14, like Elemental Body IV.
- At level 2 and every six levels afterwards, the druid gains a feat that can be only used while in an appropriate wild shape (Flyby can only be used while flying, INA/claws only works with claws, etc). These feats have to be selected in the following list: Natural Spell, any Monster feat, any [Wild] feat, Animal Devotion.
- At level 3, the druid can communicate with animals (only) of the same species he's morphed into;
at level 6, he can also speak any language he knows while in wild shape;
at level 9, he can also speak the natural language of any creature he morphs into.
- Every five levels, the druid gains a magical +1 bonus to attack and damage with his natural attacks.
Due to all the limitations incurred, and the fact that some options are clearly a downgraded version of the regular druid's abilities (most notably the total duration which is lower at some levels, and some shapes' availability), I don’t think this variant is overpowered, now. What do you think about it?
I wondered for a moment why there were smurfs instead of my profile picture. Apparently, this happens each time we post something with the word "smurf" in it. As it appears, the sentence "he's morphed" works, too... :-)
haha, I had wondered why S-M-U-R-F pics were so popular on these boards...
Also, this is just a totally random thought, but how unbalanced do you think it would be to have the total duration equal class level in hours, and eliminate the times per day limitation altogether?
Edit: Dammit all to smurf!
Also, this is just a totally random thought, but how unbalanced do you think it would be to have the total duration equal class level in hours, and eliminate the times per day limitation altogether?
Well... I played several druids, and found that the number of changes was a more limiting barrier than the duration. Removing the number of changes per day, and as soon as level one, that would be overpowered for me. I also put 1h30 per class level because multiplying the number of changes by a duration of 1h/CL seems wrong:
- regular druid level 5: 5h; level 6: 12h; level 7: 14h; level 8: 24h. What kind of a power curve is this?- if I put 1h per level only, the druid won't reach 24/7 ever; if I put 2h/CL, it also seems too much at low levels. That's why I chose 1h30.
- if you have another formula that could fit, I'm interested.
Another point of note: several prestige classes use the ability to wild shape as a prerequisite, and some of them improve on it. To prevent broken builds, this Druid variant's ability to wild shape can't be used as a prerequisite for a prestige class before level 4. Thereafter, each level taken in a prestige class using wild shape as a prerequisite counts for the number of changes and the total duration. That's because the "regular" wild shape mixes duration and number of changes, and prestige classes don't say anything about duration (they just assume the character uses the regular druid build).
For instance, a druid using this shapeshifting variant couldn't select Master of Many Forms before level 4. A level 4 shapeshifting druid with 4 levels in MoMF would get the same number of changes and the same total duration he would get with 8 levels in his druid class variant (8 changes totalling 12 hours per day).
Rounds is a good duration option to opt for.
I am jealous -You has people posting in yours, and I haven't been able to get any people to look over mine since I've finished.
Then again, I did get a lot more help than you've acquired it seems.
Rounds is a good duration option to opt for.
It might be, but it's either underpowered compared to the regular druid's duration, or it gives numbers so high that people won't understand clearly: speaking about long duration in hours is understandable; speaking in blocks of 600 rounds is much less so.
I am jealous -You has people posting in yours, and I haven't been able to get any people to look over mine since I've finished.
Then again, I did get a lot more help than you've acquired it seems.
See? Nothing to be jealous about, I'm just in the refining process. Thanks for posting, by the way (and I did write in yours, didn't I?)
# The druid can change shape a number of times per day equal to their level until level 17, where it becomes at will. Reverting to one's original shape doesn't count. If he falls unconscious, he doesn't revert to his normal shape. If he dies, he does.
# The total wild shape duration for a day is one hour and a half per level: from level 16 onwards, the druid can stay in wild shape all day long.
At will is taken to meaning whenever I want (That's how I read it)
So if I'm correct, which I think/thought I was.
Your level 17 ability is pointless considering that from lvl 16 he gets at will.
Might wanna fix that.
# The druid can change shape a number of times per day equal to their level until level 17, where it becomes at will. Reverting to one's original shape doesn't count. If he falls unconscious, he doesn't revert to his normal shape. If he dies, he does.
# The total wild shape duration for a day is one hour and a half per level: from level 16 onwards, the druid can stay in wild shape all day long.
At will is taken to meaning whenever I want (That's how I read it)
So if I'm correct, which I think/thought I was.
Your level 17 ability is pointless considering that from lvl 16 he gets at will.
Might wanna fix that.
No, it's right--the difference is that at level 16, you still have a limit on how many times per day you can change, but you could stay in the shape of a hawk all day long if you want to; whereas at level 17, you could literally change shape once a round every round all day long if you wanted to for some weird reason.
And for what it's worth, Eyolf, I liked parts of your variant a lot, too--I really like the idea of changing shape at will right outta the gate.
My bad, I failed to see that.
But considering it's at lvl 16... it seems sort of pointless to me.
I mean changing shape a total of 16 times a day... I would think at that point the DM is purposely coming up with ways to FORCE me to change shape.
Which I DM should not do, nor should a party be having 16+ Encounters per day IMO.
So.. although I was mistaken, I still suggest just removing or combining those two or something.
Just seems like an extra level of information which is not required.
=======================================================================
Aside from all that, thank you wyvern. I appreciate the comment, and although the idea was not mine originally, I really do prefer being able to at will right out of the gate however, I've currently separated my work into two separate betas.
Perhaps you wouldn't mind taking a look at the new version which I'm contemplating of using as my primary.
Basically what I'm doing is trying to make my system far more simple and efficient for space, learning, and all that such.
I think it's underpowered at current, but am unsure.
I have an idea or two to boost power, but am still not certain as to if they are required.
Will post it over in my thread I guess.
My bad, I failed to see that.
But considering it's at lvl 16... it seems sort of pointless to me.I mean changing shape a total of 16 times a day... I would think at that point the DM is purposely coming up with ways to FORCE me to change shape (...)
The use of wild shape varies from player to player. I see it as a way to adapt to what happens around the character, not just the environment. Recently, I played a 8th-level "regular" druid who spent part of his travelling in Air Elemental shape (one use) and then we were attacked by some spider-like creature. Thinking it could help with the webs, I morphed into a Fire Elemental, and found out during my following turn that the beast was highly resistant to fire. My druid now has one last change, and the fight is turning ugly. Either I change into an eagle or something and fly away, or into a huge creature of some kind, but not both.
Having more changes per day allows the druid to adapt to rapid changes in his surroundings, allowing him to keep going even after spending several wild shape uses per encounter. I can totally see a 16th level druid on a regular D&D day (4 encounters) needing one shape change to travel efficiently and two or three changes to adapt to each encounter (for instance: gets flying to cast away, goes down as a bear to finishes the baddies, morphs into a large cat to run after the ones fleeing away).
But, as I always say: to each his own.
Lets say 4 encounters for the day.
As for travel time... you would generally desire to travel WITH your party, not without them.. SO I'm assuming that you're speaking of scouting.
But fair enough
2 Shapes per encounter, that's 8 Shapes
You have 8 Left.
Lets use two for movement/scouting, that leaves 6 left.
As I said, that's a lot, so lets take 4, and add those to encounters, that's now 3 shapes per encounter for 4 encounters per day, and 2 shapes for scouting/movement.
So that's 12+2 = 14... 2 Shapes left for whatever the hell else you need.
All I'm saying is that having the ability to go unlimited at lvl 17 seems just like a pointless rule, and I'd merge it into 16, as at 16 it seems like you already have enough shapes as is to deal with any situation period.
And Unless you're Scouting, traveling long distances, fighting at least 4 heavy encounters, robbing a high security location, and possibly more.
I doubt you'd need more than 16 shapes, or EVEN 16 shapes. Plus you're not the main focus of the group, the group can do some of those things as well.
So once again for the sake of simplicity, and taking out an unrequired function of your option. I suggest that you merge lvl 17 unlimited shapes into lvl 16, thus eliminating some text from your option.
However, just my opinion, but I think that I make a damn good point, but do what you wish.
Thanks for your continued interest in this. I'm not sure I'll follow your advice, though, even if I understand your point. When I think of class abilities, I think it's better when they are spread out over the class levels (you can see from all my suggestions in this forum that it's a recurrent theme for me). Here, you gain an impressive ability at level 16 (all day long) and another one a level later (as many changes as you want). And level 17 is a psychological barrier too: several classes have semi-capstones abilities at that level.