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I used the spell point system at one point (doh, cheap pun not intended). It pretty much hits the fan when metamagic comes into play.
I was a great opponent of vancian magic in the past, considering it too rigid and silly. Years have passed, and now I consider Jack Vance's way to be the one and only true one, so much as to consider spontaneous casters a "blasphemy" :-)
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Hi all
My friends and I have just started a PF game, and it's going good so far.
However, one of my friends is a little annoyed with the "Spells Per Day" system, and wants to move over to a "Spell Point" system. Now, I have the Unearthed Arcana, so I have the basic system, but I know a few of the classes have changed a little with their spells per day (I'm looking at the Bard mainly) so I have tried doing a straight conversion of spells per day to spell points.
The first question I have to ask is has anyone else done this for PF? And if so, how did it work?
The Second question is how have people found the spell points in the past, before pathfinder, and do you have any advice?
Thanks in advance, and good gaming all!
Well, first of all you will want to carefully rethink cure X wounds.
Suppose your cleric has 50 spell points. How much does cure light wounds cost to heal 1d8+lvl? Versus how many points does cure moderate wounds cost to heal double that? Does the L2 spell cost double the L1 spell, or more than double, making clw the most efficient healing spell at all levels?
Another problem that was identified with the (point-based) psionics system was the ability to "nova" -- for the caster to blow all his points on his high-level abilities, draining him quickly for the day while briefly outperforming other classes. With spell level slots, casters are more restricted in their ability to use their highest level spells each day.
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I'm using the spell point system in my game, I used the following to convert :
I just multiplied the number of spells at a level * the point cost to cast it for all classes for all levels. That gave me a total points per level for each class. Mostly it matches the values given in UA, but a few are different (bard for example). Domain spells, bloodline spells, and school spells don't use spell points, they are just castable X times per day.
I use the table from UA for the stat bonus points since that doesn't change.
I've had no problems with this approach, and the players really like the flexibility it gives. There was some grumbling about the wizard vs sorcerer under this approach in 3.5, since the wizard got to be a sorcerer that could change his spells known every day. But, under PF that went away with bloodline powers, so all that works better.
As to the argument against the Cure X Wounds, I've not had a problem with it. Out of combat, yeah, they use the most efficient spell (Vigor in our case, since a vigor spell is always better than Cure X since it's a fixed healing amount out of combat). In combat, you need that huge boost of HP not a dink this round and a dink next. So it hasn't been an issue.
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I'm using the spell point system in my game, I used the following to convert :
I just multiplied the number of spells at a level * the point cost to cast it for all classes for all levels. That gave me a total points per level for each class. Mostly it matches the values given in UA, but a few are different (bard for example). Domain spells, bloodline spells, and school spells don't use spell points, they are just castable X times per day.
So it sounds like you also left creatures with spell-like abilities exactly as written -- no spell points, just N/day.
So it sounds like you also left creatures with spell-like abilities exactly as written -- no spell points, just N/day.I'm using the spell point system in my game, I used the following to convert :
I just multiplied the number of spells at a level * the point cost to cast it for all classes for all levels. That gave me a total points per level for each class. Mostly it matches the values given in UA, but a few are different (bard for example). Domain spells, bloodline spells, and school spells don't use spell points, they are just castable X times per day.
Yep. Now, dragons who cast as sorcerers have spell points, because they cast as a sorcerer (meaning spells per day, not spell like abilities). Any bestiary entry that has 'casts as sorcerer' or 'casts as druid' that get's spells per day uses spell points, but any spell like abilities are just x per day.
I'm pretty sure you only have to pay extra when you add dice to a spell
so fireball costs a wizard 5 points to cast at a base caster level of 5, but for every die they want to add, they spend 1 additional point, up to their caster level, and of course the cap on the spell
Spells that have variable effects based on caster level that are not extra dice are unaffected, so a cure moderate wounds is 3 points, whether your rolling 2d8+3 or 2d8+10
also, I have no problem with players going Nova, then being all spent, as it will eventually teach them moderation, or they'll die, lol
Actually, I don't even use that. I just charge the points for the spell level. Now, that's probably because the way I run my games my players always hold something back unless it's looking grim (someone's down and someone else is close). I don't pull punches and it's not at all uncommon to go from one fight to another immediately.
I also a spell point system in my game.
Mine is simple.
A 5th level wizard with an 18 int has the following spell slots per the RAW.
1st= 4
2nd = 3
3rd = 2
In my game the wizard would have 16 spell points.
4 x 1 = 4
3 x 2 = 6
2 x 3 = 6
The wizard cast no more levels of spells than he could under RAw, he now has a little more flexibility.
He still has to prepare what spells he knows for the day just like before.
As for 0 level spells: You get 4 until 5th level at which point it becomes 1 per level. I don't use the unlimited cantrip rule.
Cantrips have their own tracking.
As for metamagic effects: the affected spell cost what ever spell points that its slot would be and the max spell level would be just the same.
Example: the above wizard has still spell which would cost him 1 extra spell point and he would be limited to 2nd level or lower spells.
The system works quite well and the players like it.
Thanx!
Hawk
Years have passed, and now I consider Jack Vance's way to be the one and only true one, so much as to consider spontaneous casters a "blasphemy" :-)Can I play a sorcerer using the psionic rules in your campaign? :)
Beats TOZ with a set of XPH on a chain
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Beats TOZ with a set of XPH on a chain
Thank you sir, may I have another?
@Hawk
I ask about the sorcerers in your game because a 5th level sorcerer with an 18 CHA in that party would have the following.
1st = 7
2nd = 5
This would give him 17 spell points.
1 X 7 = 7
2 X 5 = 10
Your wizard can now cast just as many spells as the sorcerer, and can swap his spells known every day, while the sorcerer is stuck with the same six spells until his next level.
I would not allow it myself. But I do not use spell points, and if I did I still would not allow it. You can play the sorcerer with points but a psion is not the same thing and to much of a change...but you may use the psion class to play a psion if ya like.
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I would not allow it myself. But I do not use spell points, and if I did I still would not allow it. You can play the sorcerer with points but a psion is not the same thing and to much of a change...but you may use the psion class to play a psion if ya like.
Yeah, I'm totally cool with it seeker. I like this guys system, but it does remove the need for a sorcerer class, and if you don't cut them out, it totally needs something more for it not to feel completely outclassed by the wizard. Getting rid of the delayed spell progression would help.
1st = 7
2nd= 6
3rd = 4
That's 31 points.
1 X 7 = 7
2 X 6 = 12
3 X 4 = 12
Suddenly the sorcerer actually DOES cast more spells than the wizard, instead of just claiming to.
If you are going to include spell points you should give sorcerors (and any other spontaneous casters such as the oracle) a boost in sp over just a direct translation of spells per day to sp. My group agreed on 50% over the sorceror standard sorceror total. After all you are giving the only really good aspect of a sorceror to the wizard with spell points. It really tips the balance in favor of the wizard. Now if no one in the group cares to play a sorceror i guess it doesnt matter, but if someone wants to play a spontaneous caster you should strongly consider increasing the sp for them.
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First of all, there is no reason why a SP based system has to change the dynamic between the sorc and the wiz -- the wiz could still prep spells every morning but now allocates his points when he preps, while the sorc gets the benefit of a spontaneous spell repertoire and an unslotted pool of energy to play with.
What is questionable is the role of the sorc if you go to a system where all casters become spontaneous (which is different). I considered this when sketching out such a system, and my take was that the sorc would become based on bloodline spell-like abilities (ie he beats up the CmpArc warlock and takes his stuff).
First of all, there is no reason why a SP based system has to change the dynamic between the sorc and the wiz -- the wiz could still prep spells every morning but now allocates his points when he preps, while the sorc gets the benefit of a spontaneous spell repertoire and an unslotted pool of energy to play with.
What is questionable is the role of the sorc if you go to a system where all casters become spontaneous (which is different). I considered this when sketching out such a system, and my take was that the sorc would become based on bloodline spell-like abilities (ie he beats up the CmpArc warlock and takes his stuff).
well i believe the OP was talking about the version in unearthed arcana, which does indeed make all casters spontaneous. And honestly, prepared spell point is just vancian light. It doesnt do much for those who simple just dislike the flavor of spell slots.
I use my own homebrewed spellpoints system for my high-magic high-powered 3.5 campaign. Not sure how it would convert to PF. I've considered switching over, but it would take a lot of work, so I'm going to wait. My idea is a "spellpoints per spell level" system; caster has a certain amount of access to each level of spell power. Metamagic feat usage is resolved using spellpoints (Enlarge costs 1 additional point, Empower costs 2, etc.). A 5th level wizard with a 16 INT has 7 0-level spells, 6 1st-level spells, 5 2nd-level spells, and 4 3rd-level spells each day as an example. I'll post it if there's interest or email it if you want more info, but the full explanation is about 3 pages long with examples and charts. My players absolutely love this system. It tends to keep the play going longer with fewer rest-and-regain-spell breaks and hasn't proven to be unbalancing. I think if I converted it to PF I'd have to disallow the sorcerer bloodlines (or lessen them, anyway) at least. I'm not sure what else I'd have to change...
what about this: spell points = ability modifier x caster level (sorta based on paladin's lay on hands).
1st level spell costs 1 spell point, 2nd level spell costs 2 spell points, etc.
would that work?
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what about this: spell points = ability modifier x caster level (sorta based on paladin's lay on hands).
1st level spell costs 1 spell point, 2nd level spell costs 2 spell points, etc.
would that work?
15th level wizard w/ 20 Int -> 75 SP
Said wizard could cast 10d6 fireball or lightning bolt 25 times per day.
what about this: spell points = ability modifier x caster level (sorta based on paladin's lay on hands).
1st level spell costs 1 spell point, 2nd level spell costs 2 spell points, etc.
would that work?
15th level wizard w/ 20 Int -> 75 SP
Said wizard could cast 10d6 fireball or lightning bolt 25 times per day.
your point being...? :-)
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Our group has used them as the magic system in our games. What we do is pretty similar to mbt actually. Though we did tweak the classes some. By doing this casters get a bit stronger. So for us we gave clerics and druids a very slight reduction in spell points, wizards we dropped the hd back down to a d4(this is for PFRPG). Sorc we actually boosted them a little since using spell points, takes their best bonus over other casters. So we gave them a medium BaB, ability to wear light armor(with no spell failure) and choice of a few martial weapons.
So far this has worked for us and our play style. Also we did the same with bloodline powers, domain spells etc as well. They stayed cast x number of times a day.
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your point being...? :-)what about this: spell points = ability modifier x caster level (sorta based on paladin's lay on hands).
1st level spell costs 1 spell point, 2nd level spell costs 2 spell points, etc.
would that work?
15th level wizard w/ 20 Int -> 75 SP
Said wizard could cast 10d6 fireball or lightning bolt 25 times per day.
What about Lesser Planar Binding 15 times a day?
Prismatic Spray 10 times?
In my games, the dynamic between Wizard and Sorcerer hasn't been affected by the spell point system. The reason why being...
A) Sorcerers get more spell points.
B) Wizards still are strong in they can change their spells.
C) Sorcerers don't change spells often, but can't lose their spellbook.:)
D) Sorcerers don't have to prepare the spells, so can cast as soon as they wake up.
Since switching to PF, there's another differentiator thrown into the mix.
E) Sorcerer bloodlines tend, on average, to be better than wizard schools.
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I'm going from memory, but don't spell levels equate to spell points using (Spell Level x 2)-1 instead of just the spell level?
That helps with the problem of high level spells being much more affordable. With that system, it would be:
1st level spell is 1 point
2nd level spell is 3 points
3nd level spell is 5 points
4nd level spell is 7 points
5nd level spell is 9 points
6nd level spell is 11 points
7nd level spell is 13 points
8nd level spell is 15 points
9nd level spell is 17 points
Again, I'm going from memory and accept that that could be totally just my hallucination.
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I'm just confused as to what system people are going by. The Unearthed Arcana version or Hawk's suggestion I was responding to.
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I'm going from memory, but don't spell levels equate to spell points using (Spell Level x 2)-1 instead of just the spell level?
That helps with the problem of high level spells being much more affordable. With that system, it would be:
1st level spell is 1 point
2nd level spell is 3 points
3nd level spell is 5 points
4nd level spell is 7 points
5nd level spell is 9 points
6nd level spell is 11 points
7nd level spell is 13 points
8nd level spell is 15 points
9nd level spell is 17 pointsAgain, I'm going from memory and accept that that could be totally just my hallucination.
Yep, that's table 5-5 from Unearthed Arcana.
They also proposed a sliding point accumulation, so that low-level casters had relatively few points, but the point acquisition accelerated so that high-level casters had pretty large pools.
I prefer a skill based system over a point based system.
Point based systems break down when you have enough SP to cast 9th level spell. How many 1st level spells can you cast instead of the same 9th level spell?
Metamagic throws a wrench into the works. etc.
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Tri we are using the Unearthed Arcane one. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head but what w0nk posted looks right.
mbt - yeah i hear what you are saying, but the bonuses we gave sorc didn't help their magic, just made them a little tougher(really we weakened Wiz hp back down as most felt they was a bit to good and was leaving melee types behind again), a bit better with touch based magic attacks and in a pinch could melee(due to the medium BaB), Over the wizard. So they was no better caster than before our tweaks.
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You can cast 17 1st level spells and in the long run be more effective, but how many combats last 17 rounds?
The problem is generally the opposite: the caster doesn't have to "waste" any spell points on lower level spells, instead they just pump them into a small number of high level spells.
It really turns the so-called '15-minute adventuring day' even worse, because a caster can easily blow their spell points in one or two combats and then whine that he has nothing to do until the group stops, rests, and he does it all over again.
Metamagic is easy, you just keep the spell level adjustment and figure out how many points a spell of the new level would cost.
I can appreciate skill-based systems, but to me that takes some of the mysticism out of spell casting. It depends on the kind of game I want to run, really.
Usually I'm too busy/lazy to explain houserules or rules variants, so I just stick with spell slots.
Can you explain how they get more spell points mdt? Are you referring to the Unearthed Arcana system?
Under either way of doing it. Under the UA system (which we use a minor modified version of), sorcerer's get more spell points.
By going with 'Spell Level * points' you get more as well. It's rather easy to see if you look at level 20.
Wizard (20th)
1st level spells : 4 x 1pt = 4 pts
2nd level spells : 4 x 3pts= 12 pts
3nd level spells : 4 x 5pts= 20 pts
4nd level spells : 4 x 7pts= 28 pts
5nd level spells : 4 x 9pts= 36 pts
6nd level spells : 4 x 11pts= 44pts
7nd level spells : 4 x 13pts= 52pts
8nd level spells : 4 x 15pts= 60pts
9nd level spells : 4 x 17pts= 68pts
Total Pts : 324 pts
Sorcerer (20th)
1st level spells : 6 x 1pt = 6 pts
2nd level spells : 6 x 3pts= 18 pts
3nd level spells : 6 x 5pts= 30 pts
4nd level spells : 6 x 7pts= 42 pts
5nd level spells : 6 x 9pts= 54 pts
6nd level spells : 6 x 11pts= 66pts
7nd level spells : 6 x 13pts= 78pts
8nd level spells : 6 x 15pts= 90pts
9nd level spells : 6 x 17pts= 102pts
Total Pts : 486 pts
The above is just class spells, not including bonuses for stat.
Yeah, that was the difference. I was going off of Hawk's suggestion where it was Spell Level x Spell Slots, instead of Points per Spell.
Under either way of doing it. Under the UA system (which we use a minor modified version of), sorcerer's get more spell points.
Ah, no, that would not work to well IMNSHO.
Could try this...
Give them max SP of all their two highest spell levels.
Example level 3 level 3 and 2 level 4 = 17 spell points. Now you allow them to have meditate after a battle to regain all their spell points (not including continuing effects, such as bull's strength)
Do you use sorcerers in your games? What do they get different from the wizard?The wizard cast no more levels of spells than he could under RAw, he now has a little more flexibility.
He still has to prepare what spells he knows for the day just like before.
Yes I use sorcerers in my game. They don't have to prepare spells just like before.
Thanx!
Hawk
Beats TOZ with a set of XPH on a chainThank you sir, may I have another?
@Hawk
I ask about the sorcerers in your game because a 5th level sorcerer with an 18 CHA in that party would have the following.1st = 7
2nd = 5This would give him 17 spell points.
1 X 7 = 7
2 X 5 = 10Your wizard can now cast just as many spells as the sorcerer, and can swap his spells known every day, while the sorcerer is stuck with the same six spells until his next level.
Sorry for the delay.
Yes that is correct, but sorcerers do wind up getting more spell points as they go up in levels.
This same sorcerer would have 36 points at 7th level while the wizard from my example would have 30 points.
So a sorcerer gets more spell points and can cast all spells he knows while the wizard can only cast the spells he has prepared.
Again in terms of spell levels no one can cast more levels of spells under the system I use than the RAW.
Thanx!
Hawk
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This same sorcerer would have 36 points at 7th level while the wizard from my example would have 30 points.So a sorcerer gets more spell points and can cast all spells he knows while the wizard can only cast the spells he has prepared.
Again in terms of spell levels no one can cast more levels of spells under the system I use than the RAW.
Yeah, that's the problem I have. Sorcerers don't get enough spells over the wizard. Your 7th level example has the sorcerer able to cast 6 more 1st, 3 more 2nd, or 2 more 3rd level spells than the wizard. The wizard can cast 4th level spells. And swap them out as needed, where the sorcerer is stuck with the same spells every encounter.
The wizard can also prepare 8 of his minimum 15 spells known at 7th. The sorcerer knows 10 spells period. So the sorcerer gets two spells known more but can't change any of them, they are of lower level than the wizards, and can cast them at most 6 times and at least 2 times more than a wizard.
This is why I think the sorcerer needs a bump, in RAW and in your system. Just moving their spell progression up to where they get spell levels at the same level as a wizard would satisfy me.
Yeah, that's the problem I have. Sorcerers don't get enough spells over the wizard. Your 7th level example has the sorcerer able to cast 6 more 1st, 3 more 2nd, or 2 more 3rd level spells than the wizard. The wizard can cast 4th level spells. And swap them out as needed, where the sorcerer is stuck with the same spells every encounter.
I see what you are saying but do keep in mind that the wizard is also stuck with the same spells every encounter too unless he stops for 8 hours to rest and then another hour to prepare.
The 7th level wizard still only has 5 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd and 2 4th level spells that he can prepare. There is no change from the RAW. He does not get to cast anything that is in his book.
The wizard can also prepare 8 of his minimum 15 spells known at 7th. The sorcerer knows 10 spells period. So the sorcerer gets two spells known more but can't change any of them, they are of lower level than the wizards, and can cast them at most 6 times and at least 2 times more than a wizard.
But that is more an issue with the RAW than the point system I use.
Being able to get to get 2 more spells per spell level is a nice advantage to the sorcerer.
This is why I think the sorcerer needs a bump, in RAW and in your system. Just moving their spell progression up to where they get spell levels at the same level as a wizard would satisfy me.
I will have to mull this over a bit as I have have had very little issue with the sorcerer / wizard difference per the RAW and the spell point system I use.
Thanx!
Hawk
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I will have to mull this over a bit as I have have had very little issue with the sorcerer / wizard difference per the RAW and the spell point system I use.
Thanx!
Hawk
And your players may not even notice it themselves. Unless you compare it like that, you probably don't even notice, and if there isn't a sorcerer and wizard in the party, you're not likely to compare that way. If the players are conservative with spells, it could go completely unnoticed. Glad it got you thinking, and thank you for the ideas.
And your players may not even notice it themselves. Unless you compare it like that, you probably don't even notice, and if there isn't a sorcerer and wizard in the party, you're not likely to compare that way. If the players are conservative with spells, it could go completely unnoticed. Glad it got you thinking, and thank you for the ideas.
You are right there, nobody really does notice the differences.
Glad I was able to contribute a little something.
Thanx!
Hawk