Does anyone have a good alternative cost system for metamagic feats?
During the Beta playtest it was proposed that perhaps specialists should be able to prepare spells of prohibited schools as though they were metamagics — what we ended up with is a new (and largely untested) system where it costs additional slots of the same level.
Does this system (which I like on first inspection) hold the potential to "fix" metamagic costs? If you've run the numbers, you know that most metamagic feats need serious help to justify their expense, both the feat and the spell slots they suck up for little or no benefit. There are glaring exceptions (quicken).
So let's indulge my idle notion. What if, instead of a higher level spell slot, metamagic feats consumed an additional spell slot of the same level. For example, a quickened spell would take up four slots of its level.
One nice thing we can say about this right away is that there is no need to include a caveat about the maximum spell level you can use in this manner... most metamagic rules need such a caveat.
But I have no real head for this kind of thing. What do you all think?
Well, I ran some examples just now, and it looks promising. If there's a gaping hole in this, can someone shoot it down now before I get my hopes up?
What then becomes of Heighten Spell? Is sacrificing a spell slot to cast an effectively higher level spell fair? Since I have a Spell DC houserule, it might create different implications for folks using the rules as written...
Let me know what your powerful minds come up with.
Well, I ran some examples just now, and it looks promising. If there's a gaping hole in this, can someone shoot it down now before I get my hopes up?
I don't think it needs shooting down. I did the same thing with this feat
It basically works like Heighten Spell, but without giving you any other level dependent effects besides the higher save DC, which is usually what higher level casters are after.
I'd say write up different versions of all of those feats and send 'em to the Pathfinder Database! :)
So let's indulge my idle notion. What if, instead of a higher level spell slot, metamagic feats consumed an additional[i] spell slot of the same level. For example, a quickened spell would take up [i]four slots of its level.
One nice thing we can say about this right away is that there is no need to include a caveat about the maximum spell level you can use in this manner... most metamagic rules need such a caveat.
But I have no real head for this kind of thing. What do you all think?
Note that that's an alternate system from Unearthed Arcana, so you're not alone in thinking it's an interesting idea.
I like the metamagic system Monte Cook used in Arcana Evolved (although I've never used it):
- Enlarge, Extend, Empower, Widen, Silent, and Still Spell are combined into one feat -- Modify Spell. You can apply one of those effects (at casting time) if you spend two spell slots instead of one.
- Quicken Spell can only be taken at level 10+. You can use it three times per day, and it takes two spell slots (as above).
- There's no Heighten Spell; if you cast a 1st level spell with a 2nd level slot, it's automatically heightened, so to speak.
- There are also spell templates. Some of those add an expensive component, and some cost two spell slots (as above). A few (War, Permanent, Programmed) increase the spell's slot level (like 3.5 metamagic), so that you can turn Charm Person to Mass Charm Person, or Silent Image to Permanent Illusion.
Of course, Arcana Evolved also changes spellcasting in other ways (there's no 3.5-style prepared spellcasting), so take it with a grain of salt.
Negative Implication #1: Quicken Spell takes 5 slots of a given level, and so becomes available for 1st level spells at Caster level 7. Normally, Quicken is available for 1st level spells at Caster Level 9.
That said, at CL 9, a wizard can typically prepare 2 quickened 1st level spells. Under the proposed rule, at CL 9 he is still limited to one.
On the other hand, this system sure does chew through lower level spell slots at an alarming rate, which makes high level casters easier to prepare.
Does anyone have a good alternative cost system for metamagic feats?
During the Beta playtest it was proposed that perhaps specialists should be able to prepare spells of prohibited schools as though they were metamagics — what we ended up with is a new (and largely untested) system where it costs additional slots of the same level.
Does this system (which I like on first inspection) hold the potential to "fix" metamagic costs? If you've run the numbers, you know that most metamagic feats need serious help to justify their expense, both the feat and the spell slots they suck up for little or no benefit. There are glaring exceptions (quicken).
So let's indulge my idle notion. What if, instead of a higher level spell slot, metamagic feats consumed an additional spell slot of the same level. For example, a quickened spell would take up four slots of its level.
One nice thing we can say about this right away is that there is no need to include a caveat about the maximum spell level you can use in this manner... most metamagic rules need such a caveat.
But I have no real head for this kind of thing. What do you all think?
Arcana Evolved handles most 'metamagic' effects in this way (it's called "ladening: using two slots of the same level for some extra effect).
Partially as a result of this, AE casters have one hell of a nova. Something like this allows you to cast one or two very powerful versions of your very best spells, rape one encounter, and then you're done.
However, if you keep the limitations of the old system in terms of how powerful you have to be to metamagic something (i.e, you can only empower your third-best spell level and lower), I think you'd have a clean and effective systems. Not only would lower level spells see more use, but it would actually reduce bookeeping, as a high-level wizard doesn't have to pick five 1st level spells, five 2nd level spells etc. He can consolidate.
I might reduce the total spells known for all (high-level) spellcasters if I did this, as it allows you to get a real payoff out of low-level slots that normally go uncast. This is not, by any means, a bad thing.
An obvious implication here, which apparently wasn't so obvious to me 12 hours ago, is that you can metamagic cantrips for free. You could end up seeing quickened cantrips cast ever round.
That might not be a big deal, if Quicken isn't available until higher levels anyway.
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We allow spell casters to use metamagic without using feats. It's as if they had all of the metamagic feats as bonus feats at 1st level. Metamagic'ed spells still use up higher level spell slots and spontaneous casters still pay the penalty in casting time.
Why in the heck would I want to use both of my 2 feats (1st and 3rd lvl) on Silent Spell and Still Spell so that I can cast a silent, still magic missile (but only if I prepare it that way) by the time I reach 5th level Wizard?
A silent, still magic missile I can understand. Using all my feats to do it (but only if I am psychic, foresee that particular need and prepare it that way) I definitely do not understand.
Would it be fair and make sense then if a Fighter had to prepare his Power Attacks, etc. at the beginning of the day?
@Hydro: Actually no you wouldn't. You still have slots for 0-lvl spells. You would only have a few modified cantrips instead. For example a pair of silented spells.
But then the issue would still exist for spontaneous casters though.