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Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

okpokalypse wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Hmmm...looks like your argument got away from you there.

Not at all - you understood it fine, despite your need to reiterate it.

I think refute is the correct term, since your argument did not actually make the point for which it was presented.

As for immaturity, I suppose I'll have to take your word on that. All I know is that my purchasing decisions are influenced by the "free" webcomic. If I am disatisfied by the webcomic, I am less likely to purchase future products. I admire your stance that quality is distinct and unrelated to customer service, but for me they're related.

Also, your state tax analogy is incorrect. The state sales tax funds many different programs. If a large number of people were to cease paying state sales tax, that would reduce the state revenues and cause a reduction in the services provided. Similarly, if a large number of people quit purchasing his products because they are disatisfied with his customer service, his revenue will be reduced. He may well continue offering OotS, but then again, he may not be able to afford the server now that the comic has outgrown its humble origins. Or he might decide that if he's not getting paid, it's no longer worth his while. In any event, whether or not people purchase his products has a direct effect on whether he can continue to publish a "free" web comic. So, if you like his work, by all means purchase his products. But don't pretend as if there is not a link between the products you purchase and the free web strip.

The Exchange

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
If it's free we should be simply grateful to have it.
Sebastian wrote:

Except, as pointed out above, I do pay for it, and, if you're not purchasing Rich's products, I'm paying for you too. Once Rich quits taking my money for his work, I'll quit complaining about the timeliness of his delivery.* Alternately, I'll quit purchasing his work once my irritation at his failure to meet deadlines exceeds my enjoyment of his product.

*Yes, yes, I am purchasing the completed book, not the right to the thrice weekly strip. Ponder for a moment though whether, as suggested above, there may be a link between the free comics and the purchase.

There's a link, but complaining about non-delivery of a book you have paid for (very unprofessional) and non-delivery of a free webcomic (maybe upsetting) are not the same thing.

By the way, harking back to your comment above, TV isn't free in the UK. We have the licence fee.

Sorry to interrupt, Aubry, your presence is requested at the Paizonian Arena.

Thanks.

FH

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

okpokalypse wrote:


You paid for a product. A specific comic book which you received. Thus, the commitment ended with you getting your materials. You do not pay for the web comic. You cannot infer that the money you pay for another material goes towards the web material any more than you can say you paid your state taxes by shelling out 7-cents on a $1 candy bar at a conveinence store.

Actually, you don't need to infer it - Rich said it. Rich said that if enough people bought his books, he'd move to 3 updates a week. There's your connection.

Edit: link added
Check 2/17/2005

Scarab Sages

FREE comic.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Aberzombie wrote:
FREE comic.

free COMIC.

The Exchange

Sebastian wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
FREE comic.
free COMIC.

freE COmic.

ECO.....coincidence?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Fake Healer wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
FREE comic.
free COMIC.

freE COmic.

ECO.....coincidence?

Cimoc Eerf?

Eerf = Erf?

Erfworld!

Now if only we could track down this Cimoc person...


I'm just going to point out that those of you who are disappointed in the OotS erratic updates, try reading VG Cats. It claims it updates every Monday, and yet it might update once every two or three weeks on whatever day.

And no explanation is given.

And let's say you are one of the people who think that just because the comic is free doesn't mean that Rich Burlew can't be sick or be erratic in posting. Stop reading the f@$$ing comic. If you can't stand waiting for a comic, don't read it any more. If it's that important to you, you can wait.

I still read VG Cats even though it rarely ever updates. It's because when I finally do get a comic, it's usually a good one. And since I have all sorts of things to do in my life besides read webcomics, it's not that big of a deal if a comic is pretty late. No comic? Okay. I'll read a book! I'll watch TV! I'll post on these boards!

You make it sound like some of your lives revolve around Order of the Stick!

The Exchange

Sebastian wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
FREE comic.
free COMIC.

freE COmic.

ECO.....coincidence?

Cimoc Eerf?

Eerf = Erf?

Erfworld!

Now if only we could track down this Cimoc person...

Micco?

Mocci?
McCio?

I got nothing.....

Sovereign Court

Russ Taylor wrote:


Actually, you don't need to infer it - Rich said it. Rich said that if enough people bought his books, he'd move to 3 updates a week. There's your connection.

Edit: link added
Check 2/17/2005

Again, I'll ask the question: How long is Rich required to update his site 3 times a week for a book that sold in 2005?

His exact quote is: "That also means that OOTS will be shifting to a three-times-a-week schedule. Thanks to all the fans who made this possible; we'll see how far I can stretch the money until I'm flipping burgers to pay for server costs."

I don't think this equates to a contract that guarantees on time service three times a week for his online comic.

Scarab Sages

Fake Healer wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
FREE comic.
free COMIC.

freE COmic.

ECO.....coincidence?

Cimoc Eerf?

Eerf = Erf?

Erfworld!

Now if only we could track down this Cimoc person...

Micco?

Mocci?
McCio?

I got nothing.....

C.I.M.O.C.


OK, here's my take (probably redundant, but hell,this is the internet).
It seems to me like there is a certain sense of entitlement out there for a "service" that isn't being delivered promptly. This seems based on people looking at OotS as something it isn't. This isn't a TV show. It isn't a comic book. It isn't a law firm. This is somebody's (Rich Berlew's, to be precise) hobby-turned-career.

As far as I can tell, the strip started long before there was a book deal in the works. Perhaps at the beginning there was a hope that this would someday pay the bills, but at the time was a side project - separate from his job.

Let me plug in my analogy (everyone on the web has an analogy to contribute, and everyone else is just waiting to poke holes in everyone elses analogies it seems, myself included). OotS seems more akin to a hobbyist craft, like, say, knitting. My wife knits. She has lots of friends who knit. Many have blogs and podcasts. They do this for fun, as a part of their hobby. Some of them have discovered they have huge fanbases. This is generally due to the quality of their blog or podcast, either because of their personalities or their unique talents at knitting. Some of these people have gotten to the point where they can make a living off of doing something that was their hobby (selling official books of their patterns, cds of podcasts, books of their essays taken right from their blogs). The internet is in many ways a big craft fair. These crafts they do for fun, but there is this outlet for them to make money on it. The really good ones can live off of that.

If that doesn't work, how about Homestarrunner?

OotS is NOT a professional work. The book compiliations are more so. One would have every right to be upset that a preorder of that product is late.

Rich Berlew is NOT a corporation. He shouldn't be held to the standards of professionalism that "Heroes" is. Why? "Heroes" is a product, made to sell ad space. OotS is a labor of love. That the web comic sells books is just gravy. Hell, even in Rich's own quote above he (jokingly) suggests that he will keep up the pace as long as it supports itself, then he will resort to flipping burgers to bring us the strip.

As for the assertion that Rich has an abrasive personality, well, I don't know. I have not experienced it personallly, having never interacted with him personally. It seems to me, this is peoples biggest problem, being couched in terms of "unproffessionality" and "bad customer service". I think the recommendation he get someone else to do the PR sounds pretty good, if it is worth the cost.

Ultimately Rich is an artist, and an author. Both groups have many examples of irascible geniuses. It doesn't make their work any less worth while. No one would suggest not going to a free exhibit of Picasso's work because he was an ass (was he?). But it may have kept contemporary patrons from buying his work (this is all speculative, I have no reason to believe this was the case with Picasso. Please don't hang me art-historians!). However, the quality of his work merited its sale to support him.

Rich writes and draws the best gaming related comic out there. There are others: Nodwick, Dork Tower, Goblins, Erfworld, etc. Some of them are pretty damn good too. OotS, however, is in another league altogether. Whether OotS's fan's like Rich or not is irrelevant. His work is worth supporting. But he gives it away for free. Sometimes later than he promises.

I guess that's enough for now. I need a break to work up some more analogies.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Guy Humual wrote:

Again, I'll ask the question: How long is Rich required to update his site 3 times a week for a book that sold in 2005?

His exact quote is: "That also means that OOTS will be shifting to a three-times-a-week schedule. Thanks to all the fans who made this possible; we'll see how far I can stretch the money until I'm flipping burgers to pay for server costs."

I don't think this equates to a contract that guarantees on time service three times a week for his online comic.

I'll explain it in short words, so you you will understand it: it was said there was "no connection" between the free webcomic's updates and book sales. I showed the connection, one that Rich himself made.

Got it? Good.

Edit: since this was peevish, I'll explain what I mean:
I didn't say anything about any sort of contract or if it still applied, so put your strawman away. I said that Rich himself acknowledge that book sales have an impact on the updates for the free web comic - i.e. they are related.

Scarab Sages

I like short words to: free comic.


Something might also be affecting his site and his temper a lot more than most people realize. He has health problems. That can screw up a lot of things. He has finally admited that his health problems are affecting his life and his work. Try putting yourself into his shoes. ~sighs~ To Sebastian and the rest... I do understand and to a degree agree with you. But only to a degree. Having lived with someone who was ill for an extended period and having known 3 others in a similar position, I simpatise with Rich. I just guess that maybe he needs to realize his limitations sooner. But perhaps there was some serious denial in there. No one likes facing an unpleasant situation. No one.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Sharoth wrote:
Something might also be affecting his site and his temper a lot more than most people realize. He has health problems. That can screw up a lot of things. He has finally admited that his health problems are affecting his life and his work. Try putting yourself into his shoes. ~sighs~ To Sebastian and the rest... I do understand and to a degree agree with you. But only to a degree. Having lived with someone who was ill for an extended period and having known 3 others in a similar position, I simpatise with Rich. I just guess that maybe he needs to realize his limitations sooner. But perhaps there was some serious denial in there. No one likes facing an unpleasant situation. No one.

You're attempt at reaching my human decency has failed. Mha ha ha.

Sharoth, I'm mostly just pissed off at the "don't no one talk smack about Rich" crap that gets thrown around whenever someone questions him or his actions. I am irritated at the irregularity of his updates, but I'm not going to be soothed just by having "it's free" repeated over and over again.

Like I said, the guy is massively talented, OotS is stupidly, eye ball-bleedingly good, but his faq, his posts, and his domain name display a volume of ego and arrogance that rubs even me, self-professed a~$~&$&, the wrong way. Maybe I expect too much from Rich in our little fan/creator relationship, but I'd really like to have the guy say "shucks guys, I know I said I'd post three times a week, but I can't. I'm sorry about that and I hope you understand." rather than "I'll post when I want and screw you all for asking me to post three times a week. I'm sick for Christ's sake. You ungrateful knuckle draggers. I shouldn't even have to tell you why I'm not posting regularly because I don't owe you a damn thing."

(And no, I'm not going to engage in a ridiculous argument where someone responds and says "he's not a jerk, he loves puppies, if you did what he did, you'd be a jerk too.")

Rich should take care of himself, take some time off, and maybe recognize that part of the problem is that he is actually posting double what he used to when he started (his comics are almost always two pages now instead of one).

And yeah, maybe it's irrational to get angry at the artist, but it's not as if such things don't happen in other venues (e.g., hating a movie because it has an actor/actress that you don't "like" because they party too much/are a raging liberal/steal children from Africa/etc.)

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Aberzombie wrote:
I like short words to: free comic.

Too bad you don't like spelling them correctly as well.

Scarab Sages

Sebastian wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
I like short words to: free comic.
Too bad you don't like spelling them correctly as well.

Where did I spell "them" wrong?

Scarab Sages

Sebastian wrote:

You're attempt at reaching my human decency has failed. Mha ha ha.

Did you really think that any of us would think you had human decency?


I want to preface this by saying that I have an evil debilitating disease.... and it's not just that I'm a bad speller. I have bi-polar disorder, and as a result I spend many days in bed unable to get up - actually incapable from the depression of even sitting up in bed, while others I have to be (sometimes forcibly) restrained from doing any stupid things that my whim suggests to me... anything from jumping off buildings to stabbing myself to spending thousands of dollars I don't have. I'm fortunate that over the course of my twenty plus years with this illness I've developed coping mechanisms that USUALLY prevent anyone from knowing that anything is wrong with me at all.

This provides me with some perspective here. I have to think that Rich, in his outburst (that he apparently quickly removed) and in the tone of his post is reacting to something. Most likely to emails with the tone of the folks who are accusing Rich of acting unprofessionally. Give the guy a break. He posts a free webcomic. While he may sometimes be inconsistent about it, he is not charging for the webcomic. A post years ago saying that people buying the book would help him (for a time) be able to post more regularly is just that - a statement that he'd TRY to post more regularly.

If I wrote a novel made up of regular weekly posts that I posted, for FREE, on a website and then got the internet equivalent of being SCREAMED at for getting sick and being unable to maintain the previous posting level for a while... well frankly I'd do a whole lot more than make a peevish post.

The guy is sick. He's a one man show trying to do too much while he's sick, and people are ragging on him for it. Have you ever heard of compassion? No. I thought not.

Sovereign Court

Russ Taylor wrote:

I'll explain it in short words, so you you will understand it: it was said there was "no connection" between the free webcomic's updates and book sales. I showed the connection, one that Rich himself made.

Got it? Good.

Edit: since this was peevish, I'll explain what I mean:
I didn't say anything about any sort of contract or if it still applied, so put your strawman away. I said that Rich himself acknowledge that book sales have an impact on the updates for the free web comic - i.e. they are related.

Well if this wasn't a contract then how can you complain that Rich is being unprofessional?

Sovereign Court

Carl Meyer wrote:
OK, here's my take <snip>

I agree with everything you said Carl

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Guy Humual wrote:


Well if this wasn't a contract then how can you complain that Rich is being unprofessional?

You don't have to keep a store clean. Leaving it dirty is unprofessional. Unprofessional is not synonymous with breaking a contract.

Strawmen everywhere.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Koldoon wrote:

This provides me with some perspective here. I have to think that Rich, in his outburst (that he apparently quickly removed) and in the tone of his post is reacting to something. Most likely to emails with the tone of the folks who are accusing Rich of acting unprofessionally. Give the guy a break. He posts a free webcomic. While he may sometimes be inconsistent about it, he is not charging for the webcomic. A post years ago saying that people buying the book would help him (for a time) be able to post more regularly is just that - a statement that he'd TRY to post more regularly.

Koldoon, I hardly recognized you since you've been polymorphed from a dire badger into a kobold.

Which post are you referring to? Did he post here and then delete it?

Sovereign Court

Russ Taylor wrote:


You don't have to keep a store clean. Leaving it dirty is unprofessional. Unprofessional is not synonymous with breaking a contract.

Strawmen everywhere.

A Professional is someone who get's paid for his work. If he's not directly being paid for his comic strip then his OotS work is not professional work by definition.

If I write for a living (doesn't really matter what), and I also keep a blog, am I unprofessional if I don't update said blog hourly? What about daily? People presumably buy my work if I do it for a living . . .

Let's say I put "updated 3 times a week" somewhere on my site and then I fail to sometimes update 3 times a week. Now I must be unprofessional right?

What of this promise Rich made to his fans? Well let's say I drive a Taxi for a living and a friend of mine asks me if I'm not doing anything Wednesday if I could give him a lift to the airport. I say "sure, I get off work at 11, I should be there by 12" I pull into is driveway at 12:15. Am I being unprofessional? Presumably I'm not taking money to drive a friend . . .


Russ Taylor wrote:
I didn't say anything about any sort of contract or if it still applied, so put your strawman away. I said that Rich himself acknowledge that book sales have an impact on the updates for the free web comic - i.e. they are related.

Certainly, they're realted... They're as related as one saying their company payed for one's vacation to the Mayan Riveria. Since one's company pays one for work, and since one's income pays for the vacation - it related to the company. After all, if one worked in McDonalds instead of, say, Microsoft, one's company likely wouldn't be paying enough for one to take such a vacation.

The point is people do not pay for the web comic. Because things were going well and Rich earned more money off the book comic in pre-orders than he'd anticipated, he was able to quit his job and start being a full-time OoTS artist, and bring us one more strip a week. We did not pay for one more strip a week. It was a damned thank you to us, from him.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Guy Humual wrote:
A Professional is someone who get's paid for his work. If he's not directly being paid for his comic strip then his OotS work is not professional work by definition.

Oddly enough, the dictionary does not have a definition even approaching what you have described (receipt of money makes someone a professional). What it does have is the following:

1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
–noun 10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.
11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

Rich could easily be described by any of the bolded definition.

A better analogy than the ones you presented would be a sports star signing autographs. Tiger Woods is a professional golfer, not a professional autographer. The autographing is a sort of fan service to increase his reputation and interest in him as a player. Suppose Tiger has routine autographing sessions. He frequently shows up late, sometimes skipping them altogether. When confronted about his lateness, he blows his top and says he doesn't have to sign autographs, so who cares if he is late. Such behavior would be, rightly, viewed as unprofessional.


Sebastian wrote:
A better analogy than the ones you presented would be a sports star signing autographs. Tiger Woods is a professional golfer, not a professional autographer. The autographing is a sort of fan service to increase his reputation and interest in him as a player. ...

Interesting view. However, is it considered unprofessional (using another sports analogy) when a marquee player, such as Shaquille O'Neal - who is responsible for a large ticket draw, doesn't dress for the game because of illness? Notifications are rarely given for such, and no refunds are offered. Yet, this is considered an industry standard for all sports as they pay to see the team, not specified players.

One could view the web comic vs. that of the book comic the exact same way. You pay for the book comic. The web comics are bonuses. Rich stated his desire to get 3 comics out a week over 2 years ago, and he met with that for a very long time until his illness made that difficult to impossible. In parallel, athletes often say they're anticipating playing every game, and look forward to certain acehivements (3,000 Yds Passing, 1,500 Yds Rushing, 40 HRs, etc..) but often fall short due to health reasons impacting performance. Is this unprofessional?

I agree that Rich's outbursts are sometimes inappropriate, and unprofessional. Just as with any public figure with a fan base, insulting one's fans verbally by lashing out at them is poor behavior. And just like those public figures, he apologizes afterward. However, late or even non-existant updates to a free web comic are in no way unprofessional. It is not a paid-for service and he is therefore not indebted to us to give us the web comic - and just like anyone else, he's entitled to sick time.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

okpokalypse wrote:


One could view the web comic vs. that of the book comic the exact same way. You pay for the book comic. The web comics are bonuses. Rich stated his desire to get 3 comics out a week over 2 years ago, and he met with that for a very long time until his illness made that difficult to impossible. In parallel, athletes often say they're anticipating playing every game, and look forward to certain acehivements (3,000 Yds Passing, 1,500 Yds Rushing, 40 HRs, etc..) but often fall short due to health reasons impacting performance. Is this unprofessional?

This shows you haven't been following the thread. Rich has had a problem with late and missing updates for years, not just recently. Last summer he dropped back to two updates due to not being able to keep up (first on specified days, then random days), and actually failed on that too. He fell back into that pattern again this summer - first late, then missing. Eventually, after enough of them, he alters his schedule.

A professional posts promptly about why the comic is late, or isn't late in the first place. Posting months after you start slipping isn't professional.

I'd probably expect an athlete to explain promptly why he or she missed a game, assuming a starter was involved.


Russ Taylor wrote:


A professional posts promptly about why the comic is late, or isn't late in the first place. Posting months after you start slipping isn't professional.

What, in small-press publishing?? This has got to be a joke, right?

Anyone who's ever had anything to do with publishing, especially on the indy end of the spectrum, knows what kind of standards exist, and don't exist, in the business. When someone comes along and complains that a one-man publishing outfit should be singled out and taken to task for being quirky, arbitrary, uncommunicative about delays, or what have you, I have to laugh.

I mean, come on. Burlew could be an alcoholic pretending to be sick -- he could have no reason at all and just be making the whole thing up -- and it still wouldn't matter, because in the business he's in there is nothing whatsoever out of the ordinary about that.

If it burns you up that artists don't share your standards of "professionalism," then Giant In The Playground is the least of your troubles, my friend.

Sovereign Court

Sebastian wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
A Professional is someone who get's paid for his work. If he's not directly being paid for his comic strip then his OotS work is not professional work by definition.

Oddly enough, the dictionary does not have a definition even approaching what you have described (receipt of money makes someone a professional). What it does have is the following:

1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

Rich could easily be described by any of the bolded definition.

I agree that Rich could easily fit the selections you have highlighted. But come on, it's near impossible to have an Occupation or earn a Livelihood without money; this isn't communist Russia (where web comic reads you!). Suggesting that you don't need to get paid to fit any of the highlighted selections is a bit crazy don't you think?


Russ Taylor wrote:
This shows you haven't been following the thread. Rich has had a problem with late and missing updates for years, not just recently. Last summer he dropped back to two updates due to not being able to keep up (first on specified days, then random days), and actually failed on that too. He fell back into that pattern again this summer - first late, then missing. Eventually, after enough of them, he alters his schedule.

Actually, until this recent episode, he was largely on time going back to August of 2006. In July / August 2006 he had some health issues that caused him to roll back on the releases, and he more than made up for it in the fall with extended length strips in Spetember. He also posted ahead of time that the web comic schedule would be affected by the Holidays and Conventions. It's literally been about 10 months since he last was unexplicably late with consecutive comics.

And yes, I don't consider posting at 1:30 AM Eastern Time Late. He's said more than once (jokingly) that it's still before midnight in the US as a whole, and he doesn't cater to Eastern Time.

Russ Taylor wrote:
A professional posts promptly about why the comic is late, or isn't late in the first place. Posting months after you start slipping isn't professional.

You would think that if the man is ill enough that he cannot sit at a computer - he's also sick enough that he can't, ummm, sit at a computer to post about being too sick to sit at a computer.

Being in a similar situtation, I lost power for 2 days after a hurricane (Floyd), and I was flooded in. No phones, cell service was dead, etc... How do I tell my company that I can't get to work? Can't drive there. Can't call. Can't drive to a phone that works. It happens.

Russ Taylor wrote:
I'd probably expect an athlete to explain promptly why he or she missed a game, assuming a starter was involved.

Actually, athletes almost never explain why they missed the game. The Coaches and GMs do, and often in a post-game conference. As in after the fact, not before. As someone who plays a lot of Fantasy Sports, football is especially bad because it's not uncommon at all to have a player active who doesn't play and isn't on an injury report until after the game has started / been played. It winds up screwing fantasy owners who, ironically, pay for a service to play - and get little in the way of updates as to the status of their players. At least not before it's too late.

Considering we pay for these games which in turn pay to get licenses from the Player's Association which in turn goes towards the player's union, you'd think it'd be "professional" for them to provide injury reports in a timely manner for fantasy gamers. An industry that's now generating over $1 Billion in revenue.

But they don't - and ironically no one complains half as much as I see people b*#&+ out Rich for posting a comic 45 minutes after EST or being ill and missing a strip or two (which he always makes up for later).

Sovereign Court

Sebastian wrote:


A better analogy than the ones you presented would be a sports star signing autographs. Tiger Woods is a professional golfer, not a professional autographer. The autographing is a sort of fan service to increase his reputation and interest in him as a player. ...

Actually this might be a good analogy for how he runs his online store. Although signing autographs is a business these days as well. All sorts of famous people make money signing autographs.

Now Rich may be unprofessional with how he handles his online store, that's nothing I can attest to, all I'm arguing is that how he runs his online comic is not related to his professional comic book artist status.


Guy Humual wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
A Professional is someone who get's paid for his work. If he's not directly being paid for his comic strip then his OotS work is not professional work by definition.

Oddly enough, the dictionary does not have a definition even approaching what you have described (receipt of money makes someone a professional). What it does have is the following:

1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

Rich could easily be described by any of the bolded definition.

I agree that Rich could easily fit the selections you have highlighted. But come on, it's near impossible to have an Occupation or earn a Livelihood without money; this isn't communist Russia (where web comic reads you!). Suggesting that you don't need to get paid to fit any of the highlighted selections is a bit crazy don't you think?

Not only that, but looking at the examples...

1. Does that mean a carpenter who goes over to a friends house to put up some drywall as a neighborly gesture (free) is being unprofessional when he takes 90 minutes for lunch? Or if he has to ditch out before it's complete and come back later in the day for some personal reason? No. Why? Cause he's not on the clock.

5. Does that mean that if Barry Bonds wanted to hit some baseballs around with his Son that it's unprofessional cause he's letting him do well? Cause he's not hitting towering HRs out of the yard? Cause he doesn't take a 'roids test before swinging the bat? No. Why? Cause he's not on the clock.

13. If an editor is reading the new Harry Potter and comes across a grammatical error, is he professionally bound to correct it? Does he insist his Kid's work in school be downgraded because he spots errors the teacher may have missed? No. Why? Cause he's not on the clock.

The whole point is that just because someone is a professional, does not mean they have to persue professional behavior when they are not working for monetary gain. An Editor who reads leisurely is not professionally bound to correct. A carpenter who does a friend a favor should not be compelled to show up at 8 am and not leave until 5 pm with only an hour for lunch. This is just common sense people.

What Rich does in giving us the web comic is essentially a favor. Sure, it helps the promotion of his stuff through the quality of the work (just as someone looking for a carpenter might see some work he did at a friends and be impressed - asking for contact info) - but it is not directly earning him anything.

How hard is this to understand?

PS. I liked the Yakov ref ;)

Liberty's Edge

My opinion: Most of the fuss being raised about Rich's "professionalism" is based on an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. His customers are entitled to receive what they paid for, so those taking issue with the delays over the "Start of Darkness" book have a legitimate complaint if they preordered. (Not really Rich's fault, from what I understand, but it happens.) Complaints about the posting schedule of the webcomic are not supported by any legitimate entitlement, however, so they come off sounding "shrill" (as others have put it). People still have a right to do it, of course, but it makes them look pretty rude and callous, especially in light of Rich's health concerns. And others have a right to speak up in defense of Rich; calling their counter-arguments asinine (or whatever) is almost as rude as assailing a sick man for not giving you free stuff when you expect it.

Rich is not required to give his fans any explanation for missed posting deadlines, etc. He's not required to post his webcomic at all. So we have no basis for reasonable complaint regarding it. Is it unprofessional? Maybe. But it's his prerogative to handle it however he wishes/is able.

One point that I think has not been made yet regarding the webcomic and the occasions that Rich has been 'late' in posting it: he almost always makes up for it by adding extra pages to the following strips. That's something else he is not required to do, because he--again--isn't required to post it at all.

Yes, it is in Rich's best interests, for the sake of his business, to post his comics on a regular schedule and at the times he says he will. Doing so helps sustain interest in his comic and undoubtedly helps him sell his collection books and other merchandise. However, I'm fairly sure he realizes this already, and it seems to me that he is doing his best under difficult circumstances.

I, for one, am willing to cut him all the slack he needs. Best wishes, Rich, if you happen to be reading this!

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

I would like to point out that OOTS has been updated again......

Scarab Sages

Christopher West wrote:

My opinion: Most of the fuss being raised about Rich's "professionalism" is based on an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. His customers are entitled to receive what they paid for, so those taking issue with the delays over the "Start of Darkness" book have a legitimate complaint if they preordered. (Not really Rich's fault, from what I understand, but it happens.) Complaints about the posting schedule of the webcomic are not supported by any legitimate entitlement, however, so they come off sounding "shrill" (as others have put it). People still have a right to do it, of course, but it makes them look pretty rude and callous, especially in light of Rich's health concerns. And others have a right to speak up in defense of Rich; calling their counter-arguments asinine (or whatever) is almost as rude as assailing a sick man for not giving you free stuff when you expect it.

...

I, for one, am willing to cut him all the slack he needs. Best wishes, Rich, if you happen to be reading this!

I couldn't agree more.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

okpokalypse wrote:


I agree that Rich's outbursts are sometimes inappropriate, and unprofessional. Just as with any public figure with a fan base, insulting one's fans verbally by lashing out at them is poor behavior. And just like those public figures, he apologizes afterward. However, late or even non-existant updates to a free web comic are in no way unprofessional. It is not a paid-for service and he is therefore not indebted to us to give us the web comic - and just like anyone else, he's entitled to sick time.

Maybe our point of view is closer than it may seem. I view the late postings as a symptom of the same attitude as his outburts. At the end of the day, I want to like the guy who brings such a wonderful story to my life and it irritates me to no end that he seems to think of his audience as being beneath his dignity. Maybe if his FAQ was a little less snarky or he didn't control his message boards with an iron fist, I would be more understanding of these hiccups.

A good point of comparison would be the very late AoW Overload. That thing took forever to see the light of day. And yet, through it all, there was James posting on these message boards, telling us that it was on the way, addressing irate posts not dissimilar to the ones I've made in this thread, and generally keeping us up to date. He didn't lock down the thread, he didn't post a faq saying that they were very busy and would get to the AoW Overload when they felt like it, he didn't shout "it's free" and that we should be thankful to even have it. He handled the criticism like a true professional. Maybe it's unfair to hold Rich up to the quality of service that Paizo provides, but I think he would be well served to take note.

Sovereign Court

Sebastian wrote:
Maybe it's unfair to hold Rich up to the quality of service that Paizo provides, but I think he would be well served to take note.

I would hope that we can all agree on this. The Paizo community is (for the most part) quite a bit different from those found on other web sites and the folks running the Paizo boards do a fine job maintaining the friendly and mutually respectful atmosphere.

Scarab Sages

Sebastian wrote:
A good point of comparison would be the very late AoW Overload. That thing took forever to see the light of day. And yet, through it all, there was James posting on these message boards, telling us that it was on the way, addressing irate posts not dissimilar to the ones I've made in this thread, and generally keeping us up to date. He didn't lock down the thread, he didn't post a faq saying that they were very busy and would get to the AoW Overload when they felt like it, he didn't shout "it's free" and that we should be thankful to even have it. He handled the criticism like a true professional. Maybe it's unfair to hold Rich up to the quality of service that Paizo provides, but I think he would be well served to take note.

Holy Crap! Sebastian paid someone a compliment! It is yet another sure sign of the coming Apocalypse. So far there have been at least 2 other signs: (1) The Police reunion, (2) The end of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. Now this. We are all doomed! DOOMED, I TELL YOU!

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Aberzombie wrote:
Holy Crap! Sebastian paid someone a compliment! It is yet another sure sign of the coming Apocalypse. So far there have been at least 2 other signs: (1) The Police reunion, (2) The end of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. Now this. We are all doomed! DOOMED, I TELL YOU!

Don't forget the walking dead! Definitely a big clue there.


Christopher West wrote:
My opinion: Most of the fuss being raised about Rich's "professionalism" is based on an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. His customers are entitled to receive what they paid for, so those taking issue with the delays over the "Start of Darkness" book have a legitimate complaint if they preordered. (Not really Rich's fault, from what I understand, but it happens.) Complaints about the posting schedule of the webcomic are not supported by any legitimate entitlement, however, so they come off sounding "shrill" (as others have put it). People still have a right to do it, of course, but it makes them look pretty rude and callous, especially in light of Rich's health concerns. And others have a right to speak up in defense of Rich; calling their counter-arguments asinine (or whatever) is almost as rude as assailing a sick man for not giving you free stuff when you expect it.

QFT.

Christopher West wrote:
Most of the fuss being raised about Rich's "professionalism" is based on an overdeveloped sense of entitlement.

QFT again.

The point has been made quite clearly that there is a link between the OotS free webcomic and the OotS products that Rich Burlew sells. However, it seems clear to me that this link is not as direct as "I paid for some stuff from the store, therefore I am entitled to regular updates of the free webcomic." You have paid for the products you ordered; you have not paid for the free webcomic.


Callum wrote:


The point has been made quite clearly that there is a link between the OotS free webcomic and the OotS products that Rich Burlew sells. However, it seems clear to me that this link is not as direct as "I paid for some stuff from the store, therefore I am entitled to regular updates of the free webcomic." You have paid for the products you ordered; you have not paid for the free webcomic.

But wait, I pay for Dragon and that has an OotS strip in it, so by Russ' logic am I paying for a free comic?

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Callum wrote:


The point has been made quite clearly that there is a link between the OotS free webcomic and the OotS products that Rich Burlew sells. However, it seems clear to me that this link is not as direct as "I paid for some stuff from the store, therefore I am entitled to regular updates of the free webcomic." You have paid for the products you ordered; you have not paid for the free webcomic.

What entitles anyone to an update on a schedule is that Rich had promised them on a schedule. Note that's changed now, so that only applies if he blows his 3-a-week promise. What makes that an issue of professionalism is that the free strips are part of his business. If Rich didn't fail on his commitments, there would be no issue

Sheesh. Try to follow the debate at least a little bit.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Sebastian wrote:


1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

Rich could easily be described by any of the bolded definition.

In the context of his work/occupation being 'selling books of comics and merchandise' yes. Definitely.

However he is NOT selling the webcomic. The fact that he posts his work-in-progress freely to the web is completely separate from his business of selling his work.

I've read all the arguments about the 'link' and the fact that the webcomic serves to advertise his wares, and that's fine. But that link is subjective and incidental. When you buy the books, nowhere is it written that you are entitled to view future work on the web.

I've read arguments about Rich's promises and how he promised to update three times a week if we bought his book. The thing is, when you ordered that book, nowhere on the contract of sale did it say 'purchaser is entitled to preview future work in progress 3 times per week forthwith'. Did it influence your sale? Maybe, but that hardly makes you entitled to it.

Christopher West wrote:


Most of the fuss being raised about Rich's "professionalism" is based on an overdeveloped sense of entitlement.

Chris summed up what I've been feeling reading all of these posts today. Having an overdeveloped sense of entitlement seems to be a common malady these days. The truth is though, that it does not matter what you FEEL you are entitled to. The only thing that matters is to what you actually ARE, and in this case, it's exactly what you've paid for, be it book, t-shirt, other tangible merchandising object, no more, no less.

Getting back to the heart of the problem, people are upset that something they enjoy isn't available when they expect it. Some take it in stride, but some get angry or feel that something has been taken away from them, despite the fact that it wasn't really theirs to begin with.

I read many references to Rich's promises. As far as I can see those promises were made in good faith. Do you think he doesn't feel bad every time he misses a deadline, self-imposed or otherwise? I am sure that Rich had every intention of fulfilling them and I am equally sure that he was very upset when he was unable to.

Why? because I've been there. I have a long-term condition which can debilitate me to the point where I can do nothing more than pretty much lie still and wait for it to pass. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to not be able to do anything regardless of your willingness to do them? If feels really bad to let people down, to let yourself down, but when it's beyond your control you eventually just have to accept it, and get through it.

Having a horde of angry, annoyed, frustrated, or irritated (for Sebastian ;) ) fans contact you demanding to know where the stuff you promised to provide is just adds insult to injury (quite literally).

I can't argue about your right to vent about this in public forums, to try and find other people who feel the same way, or convince other's that they should feel as you do, as that's pretty much up to the folks who own and moderate these forums.

My view is that if the erratic schedule of the OOTS webcomic bothers you, then it's pretty much your problem and yours alone to deal with. If that makes you stop reading, stop buying, or dislike the author, oh well.

If Rich's illness significantly impacts his ability to post the strips, if people take offence and stop visiting, stop buying his books and merchandise, that's his problem, and it really isn't our business.

But you know, somehow I expect there will be no shortage of people willing to buy his products, for as long as they are made available.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Please note that I describe my feelings as "irritated" not angry. I find the posts screaming "it's free" to be far more annoying than anything Rich has done, and thus the general tone of my posts. I am as irritated as I would be if I was supposed to meet a friend and they were late. Eventually, such irritation can damage a relationship. In the case of a friend, as mentioned, I would discuss the behavior. In the case of someone like Rich, I b!@+! about it here in the hopes that it reaches him in his ivory tower.


I just thought I'd mention a couple things: Burlew's illness is not "just-disclosed". In the beginning strips were "random" but still pretty regular. In the summer of 2005, delays got more frequent, and if we did get an explanation it was that Rich was sick. At some point after that (I'm terrible with timelines, but it was over a year ago, I'm sure) the strip was late and we were told that Burlew passed out after a gaming session but was fine. Since then he's mentioned a chronic illness at least twice, once after the aforementioned incident, and again in his July 7th notice.

When delays started there was usually no notice about it, not even a placeholder "comic is delayed" graphic or anything. In 2005 people who ordered books had months-long delays due to printer problems, and the online strip was delayed without explanation. In 2006 we were told there were delays because of a heavy con schedule. In 2007 we're now told it's his health.

Has it been his health all along? I guess it doesn't matter. It's not that I'm not sympathetic, I just don't know why it took so long for an update like the one we got on July 7. You can keep readership informed while not revealing personal details. There are other moderators on GitP who could be called on to post a note of explanation or post Erfworld if Rich can't.

Mainly though, I'm just slightly amused that most of the arguments here seem to embrace the notion that a promise without an exchange of money can be broken with no consequences. That's pretty cynical, you have to admit.

Scarab Sages

Sebastian wrote:
Suppose you have a dm who runs the greatest game ever. There's action, there's roleplaying, the story is incredible. Presumably, you don't pay your dm, right? What he does is free. So, I guess its no big deal if he cancels every other game and shows up an hour late for the rest. Hey, it's free. He doesn't have to dm for you. How dare you be upset!

This analogy isn't quite the same; in the case of a cancelled game, you've presumably lost some of your time getting your books, dice & figures together and driving to the venue, only to find the game's cancelled, or you sit twiddling your thumbs while you wait for the DM, not knowing if you have time to start a boardgame or not.

Maybe you stayed up late the night before, so you could spend time working on your character sheet, painting some figures specially, or working on some tactics? Maybe you rushed to the store to get snacks and drinks? Went out of your way to give a friend a lift? Spent train fare?

Maybe you blew off another invitation to be there? Maybe you've got a list of jobs as long as your arm, that you really should be doing, and for which you just know you'll get earache off your Significant Other, because you went off to play 'that stupid game with your loser friends', etc, etc)?

Either way, this cancellation or delay is costing you time and/or money, and you're left with half an evening to make new plans on the fly.

Pretty Crappy Situation, huh? You probably have a right to bring the subject up with the DM, and voice your feelings.

Now...
deep breath...
think fuzzy warm thoughts...
calm down...
count to 10...

Imagine you're at home, in front of your PC, where you've probably decided to plonk your arse for the night, anyway...

(Thinks) "I wonder if another episode of OOTS has come out?"

(Click on Favourites)
(Click on GITP)
(Click on Last Strip)

2 options follow;

a) "Hey! A new strip! Oh, man, this is funny! To think, he could charge me for reading this, but he doesn't! What a great guy!
Maybe I should buy a collection; I feel a bit of a tight-fisted sh1t, for reading all this stuff for free all these months..."

or,

b) "Oh, I've read this one. Still, it's really funny. I'll read it again, because they're so funny. And free." (That last part added purely to annoy Sebastian and the OP...).

There is no option c).
At least not for anyone this side of a rubber room.
There is no call for SLAMMING the mouse down in SHEER BLOODY RAGE, and SCREAMING, "DAMN YOU!!!! DAMN YOU!!!! BURLEW!!!!DAMN YOU TO HELL!!!!!!! YOU MADE ME CLICK! THREE TIMES YOU MADE ME CLICK!YOU STOLE TEN SECONDS OF MY LIFE!!! MY LIFE!!! MY! LIFE! YOU MADE ME MOVE MY HAND! THREE TIMES! I MOVED MY HAND THREE TIMES FOR YOU! DO YOU WANT MY FINGERS TO BLEED? ARE YOU HAPPY NOW? ARE YOU? HUH? I'M GONNA MAKE YOU PAY! DO YOU HEAR? I'M GONNA MAKE YOU PAY! I'M GONNA TELL EVERYONE TO BOYCOTT YOUR SITE, UNTIL YOU! GIVE ME! FREE STUFF! YOU'LL SEE! YOU'LL SEE!(sob!) I CLICKED THREE TIMES FOR YOU! (sob!) THREE TIMES! I THOUGHT YOU LOVED ME! I THOUGHT YOU WERE SPECIAL! (sob!) YOU'RE JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHERS! WELL! I MADE THEM PAY TOO!(falls to floor, clutching blanket, curls into foetal position with thumb in mouth).

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Snorter wrote:
b) "Oh, I've read this one. Still, it's really funny. I'll read it again, because they're so funny. And free." (That last part added purely to annoy Sebastian and the OP...).

The other day, I was flipping through No Cure for the Paladin Blues, and I came upon the strip with the two displacer beasts, and felt distinctly annoyed at the strip for no good reason. When I thought about it, I realized it was because that strip was up for a long time because of an erratic update and that I read it multiple times as I awaited the new strip to appear.

On a quasi-related note, I finished Start of Darkness. It's a solid book, and really makes the transition from a joke-a-day type strip into something else. The laughs are less frequent, but the story is amazing. Rich's work reminds me of Final Fantasy IV and VI. For you youngsters out there, those are the best games in the series, before it all became eye candy and angst. The emotions those little pixalated person were capable of arousing was always impressive and Rich performs a similar feat with regards to his stick figures.

The other cool think about Start of Darkness is:

Spoiler:

It explains why Xykon spent so long talking to Roy trying to convince him to stand down in their fight. There have been a lot of posts on the GitP forums about how Roy wasn't good for listening to Xykon and accepting the opportunity to talk instead of fight. What SoD shows is that Xykon operates by subversion and charisma (which makes sense for a sorcerer) and that, had Roy stepped down on that occassion, Xykon would have done the same thing in the next encounter and would have owned Roy in the same way he owns Redcloak.


I wasn't aware that Mr. Burlew had health problems. Chronic illness is one of the most "isolating" things imaginable. The only thing certain is that you are sick, which is scary, upsetting, and depressing. My hopes and prayers that Rich and his family may find peace and comfort in such difficult and trying circumstances.

I just read the news posted on 7/7 at GiantITP.com. I'm unable to explain exactly why, but it touches me deeply that Rich specifically states he isn't accepting monetary donations; instead he gives a lists of his favorite charities. Thank you for encouraging me to do my part.

Thank you so much, for many years of fun and entertainment. I am of course looking forward to many years more.

:)

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