YRM's page

How about something like this:

I gave him one level of Barbarian so he could use a Helm of Fearsome Mein too. This is built as a PC with PC traits and wealth.

Sandor Clegane
Human Barbarian 1/Fighter 11
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 12, flat-footed 26 (+10 armor, +6 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 131 (1d12+11d10+59)
Fort +15, Ref +7, Will +6 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3, fortification 50%
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +20/+15/+10 (1d8+8/×2) and
+2 heavy mace +23/+18/+13 (1d8+10/×2) and
+2 keen longsword +25/+20/+15 (1d8+13/17-20/×2)
Special Attacks rage, weapon training abilities (heavy blades +2, hammers +1)
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +19 (+23 bull rush, +23 sunder); CMD 31 (33 vs. bull rush, 33 vs. sunder)
Feats Alertness, Greater Bull Rush, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Sunder, Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword)
Traits steel skin, suspicious
Skills Climb +9, Handle Animal +9, Intimidate +13, Perception +7, Ride +11, Sense Motive +8, Survival +12, Swim +9
Languages Common
Other Gear +1 Fortification (moderate) Full plate, +2 Bashing Heavy steel shield, +2 Heavy mace, +2 Keen Longsword, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +4), Cloak of resistance +2, Helm of fearsome mien, 570 PP, 3 GP
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Special Abilities
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Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Fortification 50% You have a chance to negate critical hits on attacks.
Greater Bull Rush When bull rushing, foe's movement provokes AoO from your allies.
Greater Sunder When destroying an item, extra damage is transferred to the wielder.
Helm of fearsome mien Can use intimidating glare rage power when raging.
Improved Bull Rush You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when bull rushing.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (8 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Hammers) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Hammers

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I might pin him as neutral.

Sure, he's a killer, and he killed the butcher boy, but, he helped both Sansa and Arya, didn't try to rape them or hurt them.

He killed on Joffrey's orders but didn't seem to like it and eventually left Joffrey's service.

He defended Loras from his brother at the tournament.

I might give him the "bullied" trait due to his treatment from Gregor growing up.

He doesn't seem to have a lust for gold or power beyond what he needs not to starve. He was going to get a reward for Arya, but, enough to take it easy, not looking to rise to power at the expense of others or whatnot.

In Game of Thrones spectrum... he's not as "good" as say Ned or Tyrion, but he's not in the evil class of Littlefinger, Joffrey, Janos Slynt, Gregor, Crastor or Cersei.

The Hound probably wouldn't hurt someone who doesn't get in his way, and he's cynical but mostly honorable.

I see him as the kind of guy who, if he'd grown up in a better environment, would probably tilt towards "good".

Actually... if you watch the Hound's fights in Game of Thrones, at Joffrey's name-day tournament he fights with a mace & shield. When fighting Beric Dondarion, he fights with a sword and shield.

He seems to regularly carry a shield. It's The Mountain who uses the two handed greatsword most often.

I'd make him a full or partial plate armor... weapon and shield fighter.

He's large with high STR and fairly good DEX.

He knocked the hell out of both guys and sundered Beric's weapon.

I'd give him shield related feats, power attack, bull rush, sunder, and weapon feats around a longsword and mace.

The first major magic item I'd give him would be the iconic hound shaped helm. Possibly some kind of ability to cause foes to become shaken unless they make a will save.

I'd give him extra HP but give him a "vulnerability to fire" or give him a Will save (ever increasing) to avoid being shaken when he takes fire damage.

I mean, I guess he can shine elsewhere, but that place wasn't really named.

I've tried to name a lot of places besides a BBEG fight vs a single dragon or pit fiend where the Monk can shine.

Here are several.

- When the enemy features a battlefield controller caster. (pit spells, slow, entangle, web, etc.)

- When the enemy features a protected, hard to reach, area damage dealer (fireballs, lightning bolts, chain lightning, etc)

- When the environment in a fight is challenging. (slippery, water hazards, pits, jumps, difficult terrain, hazardous poisons)

- When the BBEG features henchmen, especially casting henchmen.

- Reaching and destroying the line of ranged foes peppering the party from across the chasm.

- VS any Enemy who is disabling the party or dominating/holding them by targeting WILL

- Any BBEG encounter where the room is actively trapped, and you need to deal with and constantly make checks to stay active in the fight.

- Any large area encounter (outdoor encounters on a 3'x3' table map - we have and use one, etc)

- Simply running down a trapped hallway, setting them all off, and taking 0 damage (don't do often enough that the GM metagames the traps just for you, lol)

FYI at Level 16, the Monk, with just these few buffs, is (+32 Grapple/+30 Trip) with CMDs of 55 vs Grapple or Trip.

A CR 20 Pit Fiend, is (+38 Grapple with a CMD of 53)

Neither a Pit Fiend nor this Monk can reliably grapple each other.

But a Horned Devil, CR 16, is (+26 and CMD 44)

You only need a 12, and you have two checks to maintain the grapple.

Now again... going into a BBEG type fight, I honestly have never seen a group not even try to "buff up" with spells. Even if the players don't normally help each other, they tend to plan for a BBEG fight.

You could easily have 5-6 more spell bonuses over the ones I've listed, as I only listed the bare minimum of what the Monk could easily provide for himself by that level.

And if your Level 16 party is going up against a Pit Fiend, the monk has a chance to hit (50% first three attacks, 25% next, then crit) which goes up if he flanks or has ANY other spells.

So while you can't count on every hit to hit a BBEG solo foe, you also can't count on spells working against his SR 31.

Are you assuming the fighter or barbarian has Resist Fire or Protection from Fire before facing a Pit Fiend? Then why not assume the entire party has buffs?

Pit Fiends also have TRAP THE SOUL, which takes someone out with a high DC will save.

If the Pit Fiend targets the monk with this spell, it's likely to fail. There's SR + a very high WIS modifier and WILL save.

If the Pit Fiend targets that barbarian with the spell, it's much more likely to work, and you've lost that damage dealer for the whole encounter.

I GM a lot, and when I run tough BBEG type foes, I look at their nasty abilities and put them to use... not to be a dick, but, the ability is there for a reason and it's part of the CR.

I'd use Trap the Soul vs a rogue or fighter, and throw a quickened fireball at the rest of the party.

Maybe you're fighting a BBEG with a super high DC poison as part of their attack? Monks = Immune Poison... just go tank it while the party helps you finish it off.

Since I have spent skill ranks, even though it's not supported by a high CHA, in Use Magic Device, the Monk can even buy and apply wands/scrolls to give himself things like Mirror Image (low level), Blur (low level), or even Stone Skin. All easily usable with his ranks by high levels, and the spells scale well into higher levels.

---

The ability to be "good" in almost any type of varied, unique encounter... is why a person would play a Monk.

You don't have to be the best in every situation, you just have to be able to excel in role in the party where you can make a GM's life tough and help lead the direction of the fight and pick a key target to reach and disable or engage.

In response to a few other things.

I did play this build for about 3 years in a long running campaign, so, I can answer some of those other questions.

The build assumes that you'll sometimes need to refresh Enlarge or Greater Magic Fang. I'd kept potions handy and lost one of my Permanency spells once, which I had to replace.

To be fair, several other PCs lost expensive weapons to things like Rust Monsters or Sunder, and the Wizard lost a spell book.

Inside an anti-magic field... I did fight inside one, thankfully not against a dragon. Monks keep a lot more benefits than most classes inside an Anti-Magic Field. Yes, I'd lose a lot of damage, and reach, but was still better off than the pure casters. Fighters also draw a lot of damage and AC from enhancements that go away inside an AMF.

I believe that I just grappled an enemy cleric and beat the hell out of him during the time stuck in the anti-magic field. I did take more damage than usual though.

As to what does a monk do better than any other class?

What this build did on a regular basis was...
- No matter what the situation, the monk never got completely shut down. AMF reduces a wizard to nothing, and falling in a lake or being dominated can end a fighter or rogue's encounter. But even if I did eat a target dispel magic, that just let the rest of the party not eat a worse spell, and the build still functioned at a more standard "monk level".

- In that campaign, I'd adjusted the build slightly and had a very high initiative. Between that and very high perception, we often had surprise rounds or initiative advantage.

The monk is the best melee class for closing the distance in any number of ways on his target of choice, and disabling that target.

In the campaign, there were many instances where I'd charge through traps to get to an enemy caster, or jump a chasm, or tumble through foes.

There were sessions where I had a starring role, and sessions where the monk performed very well, but maybe the Druid edged him out. But he never had a bad session.

When I run campaigns, I regularly see players who build very strong builds, end up having that "bad session" where they fell victim to Hold Person, or a bad Poison, or Blindness, or the Wizard got stunned, or whatever.

And for the next few rounds, the party is bailing the normally effective PC out of a jam.

The monk can pick his spots, start off the combat, set up great flanks for any rogues in the party, disable enemy casters in many cases, and is just far more difficult to completely disable than most classes.

I used to love D&D Minis... those tactical battles... and the Monk in D&D or Pathfinder was the "mini" who set the tone of the whole fight.

Our party performed largely like a swat team or special forces squad, moving quickly, (I'd kick in doors even if they were trapped and just make the save).

Honestly it was a lot of fun.

If the build isn't your taste, that's totally cool, but it did actually work very well.

If you're on the fence, take a Monk like this and use him as an NPC against your party. Mix him in with an enemy Druid so you can Enlarge, Barkskin, and GMF the Monk (and not give away as much treasure if they do manage to take him out).

Even if the PC Wizard does use a target dispel on the monk, that's normally a round of combat on a single target de-buff that the caster can't afford to lose.

Also keep in mind that these builds don't list many other buff spells that are quite possible to have. (Bless or Aid, Heroism, higher bonus Bull's STR or Barkskin at low levels, etc.)

Hmm considering you are pointing out how hard you're monk is to kill the following numbers at level 8 seem a bit worrisome:

AC:22 HP:63

Critcal hit with a Great Axe from an 18 STR level 8 warrior with power attack is gonna be around 60 damage.

Not saying it's a bad build but in my book with those numbers you don't qualify as a front liner. Still there is some solid advice here.

Yeah, I can order some of the items differently to build more AC or HP at that level. It lower HP and AC than the comparative fighter at this level, but about 2x the save.

At level 16, the AC and HP matched the fighter, but still with 2x the save. I did pump the fighter full of alternate defensive items though.

Most classes at L8 are vulnerable to a crit from a Great Axe fighter though right?

Everyone knows that debates over the value of the Monk class have raged across forums since D&D 3.5 and even earlier. I hope that whether you love or hate the Monk, you can put that aside for a second and enjoy a read from a GM & Player who has played a pure Monk to Level 20 with a high level of effectiveness.

I'll post a few Monk Builds copied out of Hero Lab and if you're interested, I have comparison builds of Fighters with the same money at the same levels. (and the Fighter Builds, IMO, are solid Fighters that I'd be happy to play as well)

Multi-Ability-Dependent
When you are using a Point Buy system, it costs more to buy points as you go higher. Your total bonus across all stats is higher if you spread them out with several good abilities. A class that takes advantage of several good abilities is hurt less in a Point Buy system.

Additionally, a character that uses less weapons and armor can sink their gold into multi-ability belts and headbands. This'll benefit your other skills and saves as well.

Monk's key score is STR, then WIS, then DEX, then CON, then INT, and CHA is a dump stat.

With a 20 point buy system, I recommend STR 16, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 14, and CHA 7.

A Human with "Versatile Human" or an Oread will boost STR and WIS, which are the two things you want to boost.

Add all Ability Boosts to STR going forward, and focus on getting the best Headband to boost WIS and the best Belt to boost ALL attributes or at least STR and DEX.

You want DEX for things like when you have to throw a javelin and Combat Reflexes for Attacks of Opportunity which you will constantly get.

Enlarge
Monks benefit from the Enlarge Person spell more than any other class that I'm aware of because Monk's damage progression for unarmed strikes. In most campaigns, there are multiple ways to get low level potions, either buying them or having an alchemist or wizard in the party.

Always have a way handy to enlarge the monk. This gives you free attacks of opportunity when medium or smaller creatures rush in (unless they tumble), and it significantly boosts the monk's damage far above and beyond the benefit to most weapons.

This gets better and better as you increase in level.

Greater Magic Fang
Paizo has confirmed that Greater Magic Fang applying to one weapon applies to "unarmed strike" and therefore to all of a monk's attacks.

Greater Magic Fang is a very long lasting spell. If you don't have a Druid in the party, buy or pay for the crafting of partially charged wands.

There are multiple ways to make Greater Magic Fang available, so if you're playing a Monk, work with your GM. Tell him you will be, long term, looking for a high level wizard to make Enlarge and GMF permanent, but you're in no huge rush and respect his process. Tell the GM to think of it as the same kind of quest a Fighter might make to get a specific type of enchantment on a specific weapon.

You'll also be looking for the best ALL PHYSICAL STAT belt and the best WIS headband... building towards the best available at least.

A monk's robe is nice too, as it advances the damage by huge amounts.

Stunning Fist
Stunning Fist is underestimated because it's a free add on to an attack that doesn't always have to work. You have a lot of them. Monks are best suited to using their extreme mobility to engage Wizards, Sorcerers, Rogues, large or smaller monsters, Bards, Witches, etc.

But a Monk's stunning fist still has a good shot against most Clerics and Fighters, even with their high FORT save because CONSTITUTION is generally not someone's primary ability score.

When it does work, a stunned opponent drops all their stuff, so STUN is better than Disarm.

Your attitude about Stunning Fist should be "don't count on it, but when it works, the fight will be a lot easier"

It should work roughly once per fight though. But it doesn't cost you anything to "cast" it. You're not wasting an action, which is why it's better than people give it credit for being.

Flurry
Between Flurry and Haste and Ki bonus... Monks may have a slightly lower first attack than a Fighter, but they'll have more attacks at that highest bonus. They also don't need to waste points in Power Attack.

The crit on an Unarmed Strike can only be improved to 19-20 x2, but, at 8 attacks per round, it's still quite solid.

Defenses
Eventually, a Monk can run down a hallway in a dungeon full of traps, and literally set them all off and avoid any damage. (other than high level death traps) Poison? no Disease? no Area damage? improved evasion Touch attacks? high touch AC

The Monk isn't as good in a toe to toe fight with a Fighter as another Fighter (at most levels), but he's better vs EVERYTHING ELSE including the dreaded spells like Confusion or Dominate Person that can take a Fighter right out of an entire encounter or even turn him on the party.

Mobility
A Monk's massive mobility and high initiative should be used so that the Monk can get to the right enemy and engage them on his terms.

Get to the enemy caster and grapple.
Get to the enemy archers and stun.
Hop over that chasm of lava and engage that cleric in the back.

Even large, a Monk can often tumble through spaces, leap over foes, or eventually Dimension Door in the surprise round. His high WIS makes him hard to surprise.

Keep a nice large quiver of javelins and a few ways to fly handy as part of your build.

How is your GM?
If your GM is the type to put a big, single, heavily armored foe in each of the next 30x30 rooms that make up his dungeon, then, a Monk isn't a great choice.

If your GM is the type to mix it up with large, mapped combat environments, a variety of difficult terrain and hazards, traps, various cunning foes, etc. A Monk is almost always effective. There aren't many things that easily disable a monk.

You want to watch out for:
- Standing toe to toe with a superior level and equipped fighter.
- Grappling a larger, stronger enemy with spiked armor.
- Fighting a highly defensive caster with Fire Shield or other no save retributive spells.
- Bigger, stronger things that JUST go after your AC, and have an extremely high AC and FORT save.

You don't need to fear, other than really bad rolls:
- Hold Person
- Charm/Dominate/Confusion
- Disarm or Stun
- Pit spells or traps
- Reflex Area damage spells or traps
- Poison
- Falling off a ledge
- Just about anything else.

Level 8 Monk - Hasted, Enlarged, GMF+2
Test Monk 8 CR 7
XP 3200
Versatile Human (Keleshite) Monk 8
LG Large humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 19, flat-footed 18 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, -1 size, +1 natural, +2 dodge, +6 untyped)
hp 63 (8d8+24)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +11; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +16/+16/+11 (2d8+9/×2)
Flurry w Ki bonus +16/+16/+16/+11/+11 (2d8+9/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks flurry of blows, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, magic, stunning fist (8/day, DC 18)
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +17 (+19 trip); CMD 34 (36 vs. trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Skills Acrobatics +13 (+18 to jump, +25 jump, +21 to jump), Climb +11, Diplomacy -1, Disable Device +1, Escape Artist +6, Intimidate +2, Perception +15, Ride +6, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +3, Spellcraft +2, Stealth +7, Swim +11, Use Magic Device +6
Languages Celestial, Common, Kelish
SQ ac bonus, fast movement, high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, slow fall, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike, versatile human, wholeness of body
Combat Gear Potion of enlarge person (5), Wand of Magic Fang, Greater (CL 8); Other Gear Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical perfection +2, Boots of striding and springing, Bracers of armor +2, Cloak of resistance +1, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, 45 PP

Level 12 Monk - Hasted, Enlarged, GMF+3
Test Monk 12 CR 11
XP 12800
Male Versatile Human (Keleshite) Monk 12
LG Large humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 23, flat-footed 23 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, -1 size, +2 natural, +1 deflection, +2 dodge, +9 untyped)
hp 93 (12d8+36)
Fort +14, Ref +15, Will +18; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease, poison
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Offense
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Speed 70 ft.
Melee masterwork javelin +13/+13/+8 (1d8+7/×2) and
masterwork javelin +13/+13/+8 (1d8+7/×2) and
masterwork javelin +13/+13/+8 (1d8+7/×2) and

unarmed strike +20/+20/+15 (3d6+10/×2)
flurry + Ki +21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 (3d6+10/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks flurry of blows, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic, stunning fist (12/day, DC 22)
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Statistics
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Str 25, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +21 (+25 grapple, +23 trip); CMD 41 (43 vs. grapple, 43 vs. trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Extra Ki, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+31 jump, +27 to jump), Climb +11, Diplomacy -1, Disable Device +1, Escape Artist +6, Intimidate +2, Perception +21, Ride +6, Sense Motive +16, Sleight of Hand +4, Spellcraft +3, Stealth +11, Swim +13, Use Magic Device +6
Languages Celestial, Common, Kelish
SQ abundant step, ac bonus, diamond body, fast movement, high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, slow fall, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike, versatile human, wholeness of body
Combat Gear Potion of enlarge person (5), Wand of Magic Fang, Greater (CL 12); Other Gear Masterwork Javelin, Masterwork Javelin, Masterwork Javelin, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of physical perfection +2, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of armor +2, Cloak of resistance +4, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ring of protection +1, 95 PP

Level 16 Monk - Hasted, Enlarged, GMF+3
Test Monk 16 CR 15
XP 51200
Male Versatile Human (Keleshite) Monk 16
LG Large humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +25
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Defense
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AC 38, touch 29, flat-footed 32 (+5 armor, +2 shield, +4 Dex, -1 size, +2 natural, +3 deflection, +2 dodge, +11 untyped)
hp 171 (16d8+96)
Fort +18, Ref +19, Will +20; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease, poison; SR 26
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 80 ft.
Melee masterwork javelin +20/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+10/×2) and
masterwork javelin +20/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+10/×2) and
masterwork javelin +20/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+10/×2) and
masterwork javelin +20/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+10/×2) and

unarmed strike +26/+26/+21/+16 (4d8+13/19-20/×2)

flurry + ki +28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 for (4d8+13/19-20/x2)

Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks flurry of blows, ki strike, adamantine, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic, quivering palm, stunning fist (17/day, DC 24)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 30, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +28 (+32 grapple, +30 trip); CMD 53 (55 vs. grapple, 55 vs. trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Extra Ki, Greater Grapple, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Weapon Focus (javelin), Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Skills Acrobatics +23 (+43 jump, +39 to jump), Climb +14, Diplomacy -1, Disable Device +3, Escape Artist +8, Intimidate +2, Perception +25, Ride +8, Sense Motive +18, Sleight of Hand +6, Spellcraft +3, Stealth +13, Swim +16, Use Magic Device +14
Languages Celestial, Common, Kelish
SQ abundant step, ac bonus, diamond body, fast movement, high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, slow fall, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike, versatile human, wholeness of body
Combat Gear Potion of enlarge person (5), Potion of fly (2), Potion of haste, Potion of invisibility, Potion of water breathing, Wand of Magic Fang, Greater (CL 12); Other Gear Masterwork Javelin, Masterwork Javelin, Masterwork Javelin, Masterwork Javelin, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of physical perfection +6, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of armor +5, Cloak of resistance +4, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Monk's robe, Ring of force shield, Ring of protection +3, 615 PP

It's hard to get your head around how good the Monk is in his sweet spot of Levels 12-16... he will start to get passed up by Clerics, Druids, and Wizards in the very high levels.

They confirmed a while back that the unarmed strike of a Monk counts as one natural weapon, so, it's pretty cost effective to find ways to add Greater Magic Fang to your "body" (applies to all attacks).

This lasts 1 hour per level and grows in power.

Enlarge and Greater Magic Fang are excellent spells to look to make permanent on a Monk. It is possible that they can be dispelled, but only if the wizard dispelling is higher level than the wizard making it permanent (if memory serves).

Greater Magic Fang is an hour per caster level, and even if you have to buy a Wand with 10 charges at CL 8, it's only 3600. That gives you +2 attack and damage on your flurry of blows, just about every session, for 10 sessions. Most likely, you'll use 2-3 charges per session, and by the time you run out, you'll have leveled up a few times anyway, and buy a more powerful wand.

As both a player and DM, I know that players seek very special items. Wizards seek Metamagic Rods, all classes seek the right headband or girdle to improve their stats, and Fighters seek the exact right enchantments for their sword or shield to fit their style.

All of this stuff is accepted as normal.

So why would it be unreasonable for a Monk to seek out spellcasters in a big city to permanently enlarge and GMF the Monk?

If it does get Dispelled in 5-6 sessions, then, do the same kind of work that a Wizard does to replace a familiar or bonded object and get the spells put back on you.

And with Monks not needing to spend as much money on a magic sword, or shield, or armor, they can spend the money on Multi Ability boosting belts and headbands.

In other words, I don't think you need to skimp on STR or need enchanted brass knux to get the end result you want as a Monk.

Additionally, a super fast, enchanged, enlarged monk is the best non-spellcasting class for getting to and disabling enemy casters of any kind.

There are defenses that work against a Monk, but, a caster is much more at a disadvantage vs a Monk than a Fighter.

These things offset the other Fighter advantages... so while the Fighter is holding off the enemy linemen, the Monk is sacking the enemy quarterback with a safety blitz.

It's much harder to turn the Monk against the party or make him useless too, such as with a confusion or charm or dominate or hold spell.

All the best man, and enjoy it... a well built Monk is extremely fun to play and effective if approached correctly.

I personally like players to be both effective in their builds and care about the story.

I will say that the younger players in my group care less about the story and their character motivation than the older players. That may just be my group, or maturity, and not a generational change.

Hey Cosmo.

Good news and bad news.

Good news is, I got my first part of the order today. Came fast once you took care of that.

Bad news is, some of the items on the list in the box weren't in the box. They were on the package list, and there was room in the box for them, so, I assume it just got missed?

Bamboo Thatch & Black Dice Bag - YES
Pathfinder GM Screen - YES
Miniature Drow Gate - YES
Miniature TOtem of Angazhai - YES
Miniature Kyonin Diplomat - YES
Miniature Nexian Bounty Hunter - YES
Miniature Cultist of Abraxus - YES
Paizo Catalog - YES
Condition Card Deck - YES
Buff Card Deck - YES
(photo linked)

http://www.jpoppa.com/paizo_order.jpg

NOT INCLUDED
Set of 7 Dice: Gemini - NO
Set of 7 Dice: Leaf-black/gold/silver - NO
Set of 7 Dice: Ch Pearlescent-Black/White - NO

Without passing judgement on any of them or on GM's who have a problem with this, I just wanted to brain storm some ways to keep the party moving, despite having burned through some resources or being afraid of failure against a BBEG. Adding to the list would be helpful.

1) The Literal Timer.

If the party doesn't finish their task in a certain amount of time, the window for succeeding in it will close. Variations include: Hostage Crisis, Magic Doorway Closing, Ingredient Needed Before Whatever Bad Thing Happens (magic stops working, person dies, buyer leaves), Ritual Completion at X Hour

2) The Threat of Increasing Difficulty

Once the party starts doing damage to the enemy, word will travel that they are coming. If a minion fails to check in, the enemy will go on alert. Therefore, once contact with the enemy is made, the party has invested interest in hurrying. This requires a balance on the GM's part: that the increase in difficulty for not getting the job done quickly is significantly worse than doing the job with limited resources.

3) Pointless Attrition

The trail to the enemy is so fraught with peril, including intelligent and bothersome wondering monsters, that staying in the campaign area longer than necessary is unacceptable. The players may believe that each day will be equally difficult and that no advantage will be gained for waiting.

4) Looming Death

Similar to the counter, there is a random daily chance of encountering a superbeing unrelated to the adventure at hand. For example, the goblin dungeon is next to a red dragon the party can't kill, and there is a 10% daily chance of meeting the dragon. Be prepared to wipe the party with the dragon if they drag their feet.

5) Competing Forces

There's a reward for the giant shaman's stone of translation, and another competing adventuring party might get there first. As a DM, have some increasing random chance that another group completes the mission while the PCs screw around.

6) Competing Evil Forces

This is more like Indiana Jones, where, he's racing against the Nazis to find the treasure. There'd be risks and consequences for not getting to it fast enough, including losing it to the enemy forces.

7) Enemies Leave with their Loot

The last battle of the day is easy, the PCs win, most of the enemy soldiers surrender, and the PCs search, but, find empty drawers, square-dust-free-areas, and worse. The prisoner confirms that the shaman and his body-guards cleaned up and took off because they didn't think they could beat the PCs, and they did it while the PCs were camping in the barred off larder 2 levels down. The enemies are planning on spending their treasure to buy more guards and traps.

8) Enemies prepare escape spells

Along the same line, the enemy bosses stay to fight, but, they've taken the time of rest to prepare spells like fly, passwall, invisibility, teleport, etc. They'll laughingly point this out as they escape with their magical gear still being weilded by them.

9) Enemies had prisoners, PCs didn't know about

After resting again in the Dungeon of Doom, the PCs run into a haggard NPC who has just escaped a mass execution. "They know you are coming, and when you were camping, they started executing prisoners so that there'd be no chance of escape or freedom for us! Why did you take so long?"

Even after the adventure is over, PCs start to gain a reputation of being "overly cautious" and lose respect among the townfolk.

10) Enemies hear the current battle and start heading for it.

After the battle is over, new enemies will arrive on the scene within minutes, wrecking any chance for camp.

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If you mix stuff like this in sometimes, when it makes sense, they'll feel like they should have a sense of urgency even when they don't have a known timer.

That's very true, YRM. As it stands, the monk is situationally useful, while the fighter is always useful. At the end of the day the monk's big problem is still hitting their target and overcoming DR. In your game you have a friendly druid willing to solve that problem with buffs, but that is not a solution. It just highlights that the class cannot carry itself.

At the end of the day, after all their acrobatics and athletics, to be truly effective the monk has to attack and damage a foe. As it stands, they have real problems doing this as effectively as any other combat class.

A problem that a Monk definitely has to overcome is the lower BaB, and Damage reduction.

However... real time experience has shown me that the fighter isn't always useful and the monk only situationally useful. Since I could act sooner, move faster, reach enemies that were tougher to reach, and pick my battles, I actually found that I was contributing more to our victories than the fighter.

Yes, he was powerful. Yes, he contributed.

But he also was "held", "dominated", "sunk to the bottom of a lake", "stuck on the wrong side of a chasm during a fight", "acted so low in the initiative order that half the battle was over by the time he started (at times)", "forced to double move to reach the foe he hoped would still be standing there fighting him next round".

I was put in a bad situation where I couldn't contribute two times in 19 levels. Both times were against higher level, well armored, well built fighters. (again, I'm not saying fighters suck) I couldn't get away from them in those instances and needed the group to save me.

But, that's no different than when the fighter was bleeding to death after being hit by two high damage touch spells that would have missed me.

Most of the time... just like the Monk has some "overkill" on his saves. Does he really need another +2 vs enchantment? Against most foes, no. Against a key badguy? It could be the difference between winning the fight or not.

So... most of the time... the fighter doesn't NEED all of his "to hit" bonus. If the fighter is hitting most of the enemies on a roll of a 2, then, it's not so bad if the Monk needs a 5.

And just as the fighter might quest to gain various weapons to defeat various types of Damage Reduction... can't a Monk quest to buy a far cheaper potion of Greater Magic Fang? Or buy a potion of Enlarge to do more damage to overcome some DR5?

Sure, some enemies require a +5 Silver weapon to bypass DR, but most don't.

Again this depends on the GM, but, likewise, some enemies have ranged touch attacks or will attacks that really mess up a fighter's day too.

A confused, or dominated, or charmed fighter isn't just "out of the fight", but now he's doing his massive damage to your own team.

That's certainly a situation where a fighter is worse than useless. (and even if the Cleric targets him with a dispel magic, you could potentially lose helpful buffs, and it wastes another key action in the fight)

I guess I'm just saying... having played a monk for years from level 1 to 18, that I didn't have these problems.

And having a Druid around sure helped... but, what class doesn't benefit from having a support caster? Just so happens that Druids synergize better with Monks than Clerics do but, shrug.

Like I said before, there's a big cause and effect here with how the GM runs the game.

When you compare L6 monk and L6 fighter, the fighter hits harder and more accurately by a lot. The monk saves much more often, especially against things that could take him out of the fighting. The monk has more ways to avoid damage and "on hit effects", the fighter has more HP to suffer the damage.

But here's how it depends on the group and the GM.

- Greater Magic Fang: 1/hr per level, scales with the Druid in your party, if he saves two slots for you, you'll ALWAYS have it, even without making permanent. Without spending a dime, you're hitting harder and more accurately and scaling much closer to a fighter.
(sure, it's an assumption, but so is assuming you'll find +4 Mithral Plate Mail of SuperDoopery)

- 30x30 Dungeon rooms vs Large Scale Environments: In a small, map-isn't-so-important battle, where people stand toe to toe and trade damage, the fighter wins, hands down. In a huge room, with chasms and rope bridges and hazards and poison gas, with the enemy wizard hiding up on a dias 80 feet away, the Monk wins, hands down.

- Initiative: Does the party excel at team tactics? Does spotting foes, getting the jump on them, and winning initiative make a huge difference? A group that focuses down or debilitates a foe before they can act benefits more from the Monk who is less likely to be surprised, and more likely to act at the top of the initiative order. A monk acting in a surprise round may have time to quaff a key potion to buff him where a fighter didn't get to act.

If you're in slogging battles with relentless undead foes, then, initiative matters a little less, and the fighter wins out.

- Gotcha Spells: If the DM uses foes that present some "gotcha" spells like "Harm", "Hold Person", "Charm Person", "Energy Drain", "Disintegrate", "Flesh to Stone", "Dominate Person"... a Monk is much better at not being touched, evading damage, resisting effects, etc.

- Toughest Enemies: If the DM uses a lot of spell-caster or "sit in the back and shoot arrows" types as the leaders of his enemy forces, a Monk can get to them and disable them more easily.

If the DM uses a lot more "lead from the front in full plate mail and sporting some kind of fire shield" then a Fighter wins. Iron Golems, Giants, Fighters... those things tend to give more trouble to a Monk who can't absorb as much damage when he finally does get hit.

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But our group. We use miniatures, master maze, large outdoor battle maps... we have battles where composite longbows have taken range penalties. The speed and ability of a Monk to get to just about anywhere is huge.

The fighters can kick ass too. Fighters don't suck. But Monks are absolutely useful, absolutely effective under a wide range of circumstances.

The way a Monk and Fighter work well together is... at higher levels, the Druid buffed Monk grabs the fighter early in the battle, dimension doors past the front line grunts, and the Monk-Fighter team up on the squishier casters in the back that would have taken the fighter maybe 2-3 rounds to reach if the DM set it up right.

Currently there are several good threads around discussing the monks weaknesses and really nice monk redesigns. One often mentioned weakness is the monks disadvantage at hitting foes compared to the fighter. While I think that these arguments are valid, I'm wondering how the monk compares to the fighter when not concentrating on this aspect...

Having played a Half-Orc Monk to level 19, I'd have to agree that Monks can really shine, especially when paired with a Druid in the party. The ever improving, and long lasting, Greater Magic Fang spell, along with the potential to make it permanent, is fantastic. Enlarge Person is a Monk's friend too.

Party composition does make a difference here. Shrug. With that done, the Monk can focus on using the neck slot to boost Wisdom and gain those extra benefits.

In my experience, with our DM, we had a lot of fights that could take place across multiple dungeon rooms, or in a large cavern, or with terrain obstacles, hazards, pits, water, and various things blocking the way to the enemy wizard, or cleric, or rogue, or ranger.

I could get past just about any obstacle with my speed and skills, and I could resist just about any attack other than standing toe to toe with a same level, powerful fighter.

When I got to my preferred target, I could trip them, grapple them, stun them, disarm them... as the situation dictated.

An enemy ranger with no bow isn't such a threat.

An enemy wizard who is stunned or grappled isn't such a threat.

An enemy rogue who is stunned and disarmed isn't so bad.

An enemy cleric who is disarmed or tripped or grappled... again.

I could resist their close spell damage, touch attacks, and other defenses better than a fighter. A cleric with a devastating touch attack still had to hit me, and my Touch AC was VERY GOOD.

My saves were over the top in almost all areas and coupled with other resistance defenses like evasion, still mind, diamond body, etc. Most attacks had to get past several levels of defenses.

Only the encounter bosses who were higher level than us could reliably penetrate those defenses, and, those bosses are a risk to anyone.

So, in the end, I could get to foes a round or two before our fighter could reach them, and survive until he got there. I'd prevent insane amounts of spell damage to the party just by disrupting the enemy formations like this.

In another encounter, in a black dragon's lair, we had to deal with a flying, swimming foe, and at one point, our plate armored dwarf fighter fell into the water.

Sure, he survived it, but, in that fight, I was able to get to, and attack, the dragon far more easily. I also evaded it's breath, and had good enough armor to only be hit physically about half the time.

There were dozens and dozens of times that the defense and mobility and skillset of the monk let us prepare for an ambush instead of walking into it, or dodge critical spells or attacks, or get to foes that should have been out of reach.

But, again, it is situational.

I had a great group. The druid and I partnered up a lot with his contingent of buff spells, etc. Getting some permanent buffs on a monk can be a quest just like a fighter might quest for a specific magic sword. Not much different right?

I'd highly suggest, if your party does have a druid, consider playing a monk.