Guide: The Hulk Monk - Excelling in Every Session


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Everyone knows that debates over the value of the Monk class have raged across forums since D&D 3.5 and even earlier. I hope that whether you love or hate the Monk, you can put that aside for a second and enjoy a read from a GM & Player who has played a pure Monk to Level 20 with a high level of effectiveness.

I'll post a few Monk Builds copied out of Hero Lab and if you're interested, I have comparison builds of Fighters with the same money at the same levels. (and the Fighter Builds, IMO, are solid Fighters that I'd be happy to play as well)

Multi-Ability-Dependent
When you are using a Point Buy system, it costs more to buy points as you go higher. Your total bonus across all stats is higher if you spread them out with several good abilities. A class that takes advantage of several good abilities is hurt less in a Point Buy system.

Additionally, a character that uses less weapons and armor can sink their gold into multi-ability belts and headbands. This'll benefit your other skills and saves as well.

Monk's key score is STR, then WIS, then DEX, then CON, then INT, and CHA is a dump stat.

With a 20 point buy system, I recommend STR 16, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 14, and CHA 7.

A Human with "Versatile Human" or an Oread will boost STR and WIS, which are the two things you want to boost.

Add all Ability Boosts to STR going forward, and focus on getting the best Headband to boost WIS and the best Belt to boost ALL attributes or at least STR and DEX.

You want DEX for things like when you have to throw a javelin and Combat Reflexes for Attacks of Opportunity which you will constantly get.

Enlarge
Monks benefit from the Enlarge Person spell more than any other class that I'm aware of because Monk's damage progression for unarmed strikes. In most campaigns, there are multiple ways to get low level potions, either buying them or having an alchemist or wizard in the party.

Always have a way handy to enlarge the monk. This gives you free attacks of opportunity when medium or smaller creatures rush in (unless they tumble), and it significantly boosts the monk's damage far above and beyond the benefit to most weapons.

This gets better and better as you increase in level.

Greater Magic Fang
Paizo has confirmed that Greater Magic Fang applying to one weapon applies to "unarmed strike" and therefore to all of a monk's attacks.

Greater Magic Fang is a very long lasting spell. If you don't have a Druid in the party, buy or pay for the crafting of partially charged wands.

There are multiple ways to make Greater Magic Fang available, so if you're playing a Monk, work with your GM. Tell him you will be, long term, looking for a high level wizard to make Enlarge and GMF permanent, but you're in no huge rush and respect his process. Tell the GM to think of it as the same kind of quest a Fighter might make to get a specific type of enchantment on a specific weapon.

You'll also be looking for the best ALL PHYSICAL STAT belt and the best WIS headband... building towards the best available at least.

A monk's robe is nice too, as it advances the damage by huge amounts.

Stunning Fist
Stunning Fist is underestimated because it's a free add on to an attack that doesn't always have to work. You have a lot of them. Monks are best suited to using their extreme mobility to engage Wizards, Sorcerers, Rogues, large or smaller monsters, Bards, Witches, etc.

But a Monk's stunning fist still has a good shot against most Clerics and Fighters, even with their high FORT save because CONSTITUTION is generally not someone's primary ability score.

When it does work, a stunned opponent drops all their stuff, so STUN is better than Disarm.

Your attitude about Stunning Fist should be "don't count on it, but when it works, the fight will be a lot easier"

It should work roughly once per fight though. But it doesn't cost you anything to "cast" it. You're not wasting an action, which is why it's better than people give it credit for being.

Flurry
Between Flurry and Haste and Ki bonus... Monks may have a slightly lower first attack than a Fighter, but they'll have more attacks at that highest bonus. They also don't need to waste points in Power Attack.

The crit on an Unarmed Strike can only be improved to 19-20 x2, but, at 8 attacks per round, it's still quite solid.

Defenses
Eventually, a Monk can run down a hallway in a dungeon full of traps, and literally set them all off and avoid any damage. (other than high level death traps) Poison? no Disease? no Area damage? improved evasion Touch attacks? high touch AC

The Monk isn't as good in a toe to toe fight with a Fighter as another Fighter (at most levels), but he's better vs EVERYTHING ELSE including the dreaded spells like Confusion or Dominate Person that can take a Fighter right out of an entire encounter or even turn him on the party.

Mobility
A Monk's massive mobility and high initiative should be used so that the Monk can get to the right enemy and engage them on his terms.

Get to the enemy caster and grapple.
Get to the enemy archers and stun.
Hop over that chasm of lava and engage that cleric in the back.

Even large, a Monk can often tumble through spaces, leap over foes, or eventually Dimension Door in the surprise round. His high WIS makes him hard to surprise.

Keep a nice large quiver of javelins and a few ways to fly handy as part of your build.

How is your GM?
If your GM is the type to put a big, single, heavily armored foe in each of the next 30x30 rooms that make up his dungeon, then, a Monk isn't a great choice.

If your GM is the type to mix it up with large, mapped combat environments, a variety of difficult terrain and hazards, traps, various cunning foes, etc. A Monk is almost always effective. There aren't many things that easily disable a monk.

You want to watch out for:
- Standing toe to toe with a superior level and equipped fighter.
- Grappling a larger, stronger enemy with spiked armor.
- Fighting a highly defensive caster with Fire Shield or other no save retributive spells.
- Bigger, stronger things that JUST go after your AC, and have an extremely high AC and FORT save.

You don't need to fear, other than really bad rolls:
- Hold Person
- Charm/Dominate/Confusion
- Disarm or Stun
- Pit spells or traps
- Reflex Area damage spells or traps
- Poison
- Falling off a ledge
- Just about anything else.

Level 8 Monk - Hasted, Enlarged, GMF+2
Test Monk 8 CR 7
XP 3200
Versatile Human (Keleshite) Monk 8
LG Large humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 19, flat-footed 18 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, -1 size, +1 natural, +2 dodge, +6 untyped)
hp 63 (8d8+24)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +11; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +16/+16/+11 (2d8+9/×2)
Flurry w Ki bonus +16/+16/+16/+11/+11 (2d8+9/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks flurry of blows, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, magic, stunning fist (8/day, DC 18)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +17 (+19 trip); CMD 34 (36 vs. trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Skills Acrobatics +13 (+18 to jump, +25 jump, +21 to jump), Climb +11, Diplomacy -1, Disable Device +1, Escape Artist +6, Intimidate +2, Perception +15, Ride +6, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +3, Spellcraft +2, Stealth +7, Swim +11, Use Magic Device +6
Languages Celestial, Common, Kelish
SQ ac bonus, fast movement, high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, slow fall, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike, versatile human, wholeness of body
Combat Gear Potion of enlarge person (5), Wand of Magic Fang, Greater (CL 8); Other Gear Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical perfection +2, Boots of striding and springing, Bracers of armor +2, Cloak of resistance +1, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, 45 PP

Level 12 Monk - Hasted, Enlarged, GMF+3
Test Monk 12 CR 11
XP 12800
Male Versatile Human (Keleshite) Monk 12
LG Large humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +21
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Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 23, flat-footed 23 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, -1 size, +2 natural, +1 deflection, +2 dodge, +9 untyped)
hp 93 (12d8+36)
Fort +14, Ref +15, Will +18; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease, poison
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Offense
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Speed 70 ft.
Melee masterwork javelin +13/+13/+8 (1d8+7/×2) and
masterwork javelin +13/+13/+8 (1d8+7/×2) and
masterwork javelin +13/+13/+8 (1d8+7/×2) and

unarmed strike +20/+20/+15 (3d6+10/×2)
flurry + Ki +21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 (3d6+10/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks flurry of blows, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic, stunning fist (12/day, DC 22)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 25, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +21 (+25 grapple, +23 trip); CMD 41 (43 vs. grapple, 43 vs. trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Extra Ki, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+31 jump, +27 to jump), Climb +11, Diplomacy -1, Disable Device +1, Escape Artist +6, Intimidate +2, Perception +21, Ride +6, Sense Motive +16, Sleight of Hand +4, Spellcraft +3, Stealth +11, Swim +13, Use Magic Device +6
Languages Celestial, Common, Kelish
SQ abundant step, ac bonus, diamond body, fast movement, high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, slow fall, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike, versatile human, wholeness of body
Combat Gear Potion of enlarge person (5), Wand of Magic Fang, Greater (CL 12); Other Gear Masterwork Javelin, Masterwork Javelin, Masterwork Javelin, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of physical perfection +2, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of armor +2, Cloak of resistance +4, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ring of protection +1, 95 PP

Level 16 Monk - Hasted, Enlarged, GMF+3
Test Monk 16 CR 15
XP 51200
Male Versatile Human (Keleshite) Monk 16
LG Large humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +25
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Defense
--------------------
AC 38, touch 29, flat-footed 32 (+5 armor, +2 shield, +4 Dex, -1 size, +2 natural, +3 deflection, +2 dodge, +11 untyped)
hp 171 (16d8+96)
Fort +18, Ref +19, Will +20; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease, poison; SR 26
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 80 ft.
Melee masterwork javelin +20/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+10/×2) and
masterwork javelin +20/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+10/×2) and
masterwork javelin +20/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+10/×2) and
masterwork javelin +20/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+10/×2) and

unarmed strike +26/+26/+21/+16 (4d8+13/19-20/×2)

flurry + ki +28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 for (4d8+13/19-20/x2)

Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks flurry of blows, ki strike, adamantine, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic, quivering palm, stunning fist (17/day, DC 24)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 30, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +28 (+32 grapple, +30 trip); CMD 53 (55 vs. grapple, 55 vs. trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Extra Ki, Greater Grapple, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Weapon Focus (javelin), Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Skills Acrobatics +23 (+43 jump, +39 to jump), Climb +14, Diplomacy -1, Disable Device +3, Escape Artist +8, Intimidate +2, Perception +25, Ride +8, Sense Motive +18, Sleight of Hand +6, Spellcraft +3, Stealth +13, Swim +16, Use Magic Device +14
Languages Celestial, Common, Kelish
SQ abundant step, ac bonus, diamond body, fast movement, high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, slow fall, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike, versatile human, wholeness of body
Combat Gear Potion of enlarge person (5), Potion of fly (2), Potion of haste, Potion of invisibility, Potion of water breathing, Wand of Magic Fang, Greater (CL 12); Other Gear Masterwork Javelin, Masterwork Javelin, Masterwork Javelin, Masterwork Javelin, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of physical perfection +6, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of armor +5, Cloak of resistance +4, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Monk's robe, Ring of force shield, Ring of protection +3, 615 PP

It's hard to get your head around how good the Monk is in his sweet spot of Levels 12-16... he will start to get passed up by Clerics, Druids, and Wizards in the very high levels.


I like how this whole build is fairly well thought out and also completely avoided breaking the bank for AoMF.


EsperMagic wrote:
completely avoided breaking the bank for AoMF.

Yep, just needed permanency, high level greater magic fang, and enlarge.

Also pretended you only get surpassed by casters at the 'very high levels'.


Well I guess if you have some slavish obsession with being the most powerful member in the party at all times then I guess this wouldnt be for you.

And yeah a big 17,500 gp to permanency both of those spells. What an expense. You save 19,000 GP alone using permanency of GMF+3 for each compared to an AoMF +3.

So nice pointless comment.

Scarab Sages

I also like that you did not take power attack on the build. Power attack is really a bad idea on a monk due to the lack of any innate accuracy bonus to counteract it.


EsperMagic wrote:

Well I guess if you have some slavish obsession with being the most powerful member in the party at all times then I guess this wouldnt be for you.

And yeah a big 10,000 gp to permanency both of those spells. What an expense.

I don't think you understood what I said. I was saying it took those things in particular and was referring to the fact its built entirely around hitting things but casters excel because they excel in versatility and combat options. There was nothing about slavish obsessions or even talking about problems with getting those spells.


So why do casters matter in this thread? I mean its a pointless comparison. No one is saying this is better than casters?


EsperMagic wrote:
So why do casters matter in this thread? I mean its a pointless comparison. No one is saying this is better than casters?
YRM wrote:
It's hard to get your head around how good the Monk is in his sweet spot of Levels 12-16... he will start to get passed up by Clerics, Druids, and Wizards in the very high levels.

I didn't say anyone was better than casters or said anyone else did.

No need for back and forth about things. Thread has just started.


Hmm considering you are pointing out how hard you're monk is to kill the following numbers at level 8 seem a bit worrisome:

AC:22 HP:63

Critcal hit with a Great Axe from an 18 STR level 8 warrior with power attack is gonna be around 60 damage.

Not saying it's a bad build but in my book with those numbers you don't qualify as a front liner. Still there is some solid advice here.


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Indeed. One good Dispel Magic makes you an ultra sad panda.

In addition, I'm having a hard time seeing what's so impressive about this built. DPR is okay I guess, and saves are great(as is to be expected), but what is accomplished here that couldn't be done (and better) by another class?

It doesn't have anything going for it besides "Monk Smash" and its Monk Smashing doesn't hold up against classes like, say, a Barbarian. Who at level 16 may be only getting 4 hits with Haste...but will be doing so at a MUCH higher attack bonus and static damage.

My level 14 Barbarian has a hasted attack routine of +34/+34/+25/20 at 2d6+36, and a bite at +24 for 1d4+22, with Pounce, and similar saving throws because of Superstition. With no other buffs running (as your Monk has).

Your character has the potential for more damage (248 vs 189 on average)...but realistically will hit less often (your HIGHEST attack bonus is less than my LOWEST), thus lowering your DPR. And that's all your Monk does (Grapple and Trip both coming in at the levels where neither is very effective at this point), bringing little to the table outside of combat (Trap disabling is something my Barbarian can do, for example) and no other options inside of it (Spell Sunder acts as a good enemy Debuff).

If DPR is all you do, and it's what you're hyper-focused into doing...you should be the best at it. As-is, I'm pretty sure that if I ran the numbers most martial builds would kick your rear in DPR (due to much higher attack bonuses and static damage), and bring more to the table outside of combat and/or more options in it (barring Fighter).

There are good Monk builds. There are even good Monk DPR builds. Not really as good as a dedicated martial, but there are some if you work hard enough.

This is not one of those. It doesn't stack up to any of the good martial characters in DPR as near as I can tell (Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin) or even stack up to those dedicated martial characters in utility in most cases. It's certainly not a skill monkey, and doesn't have any sort of versatile offering to the table to make up for it.

Not sure exactly what point this was supposed to prove. It works as "getting by in every session" but you're hardly excelling.


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Doesn't he lose his Class AC bonus (including Wis to AC), fast movement, and flurry of blows when using a shield? Ring of force shield works just like an actual shield except you can turn it on or off just about at will. It doesn't matter if it is zero ACP or weightless; it is still a shield, right?

That gives you an AC (at 16th level) of 36/29/30, when the average attack bonus of CR16 monsters is +26 with average damage of 80. Even with 171 hit points, three hits and you are GONE.

Never mind that this build illustrates what I and others have said for years: your options to build a monk do not resemble (in the slightest) monks of myth and legend. Permanent enlarge person? Jacking Strength up to 30 (with a Dex [after enhancement] of just 18). Yes, in Pathfinder, Hulk can Smash! But monks ain't supposed to be Hulk.

EDIT: And man, you are screwed if you fight inside an Anti-Magic Field. THAT will put your Dex at 12 and your Wis at 16 . . . giving you an armor class of 18/18/14 (before Dodge)! Never mind finding a room at an Inn to sleep or a chair to sit in (because of that permanent enlarge) or buying clothing. Heaven help you if you go on a dungeon crawl with narrow corridors and tunnels.

MA


master arminas wrote:

But monks ain't supposed to be Hulk.

MA

+1


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Well, in fairness as it stands, Monks are woefully lacking in what they are supposed to be, so...
You work with what you got.

Which is why system mastery is a major factor in a monk build.

Scarab Sages

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Kryzbyn wrote:

Well, in fairness as it stands, Monks are woefully lacking in what they are supposed to be, so...

You work with what you got.

Which is why system mastery is a major factor in a monk build.

Or you play a Warpriest of Irori in brawling armor and you are a better monk than a monk.

Silver Crusade

well, the monk DOES do defense well, and monks IRL were all about the DEFENSE, martial arts was made as SELF DEFENCE, (sure, it was then turned into a training to kill people, IE muay thai buuut..) the PF monks have the defense over offence build, and can easily be made nigh unkillable, people should focus on making this work, not trying to become the dpr of fighter, (which, imo no class will match consistently) there are ways to mitigate damage to party members as well.


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The issue with defense builds though is that the party goal rarely is "make sure one person survives".

Unless you bring something else to the table, defense doesnt really help with adventuring.

Silver Crusade

you do, you bring the ability to lock down many things with maneuvers. easily. a tetori built around defense and lock downs is easily one of the best types to lock down the BBEG that is in heavy armor. or a maneuver master that focuses on throwing and defense.


Most monks ive seen focus on maneuvers have seemed like either extremely circumstantial or like a bad imitation of a barbarian. Might have missed some build though.

Also, most BBEGs with heavy armor tendto either have very bad will save or be negated with just a bit of grease and a tanglefoot bag, unless heavily supported by mooks.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Well, in fairness as it stands, Monks are woefully lacking in what they are supposed to be, so...

You work with what you got.

Which is why system mastery is a major factor in a monk build.

Or you play a Warpriest of Irori in brawling armor and you are a better monk than a monk.

Heh, yeah at some point system mastery would tell you to use a different class for your character concept...

Silver Crusade

grease- BBEG in armor down
huge movement-grapple- BBEG rendered useless. grats both do the intended job

also, pre level 12 where several things get flying, a monk focused on throwing(trips) maneuver master works wonders vs most anything, after that, dirty trick/grapple/sunder all work well, and can be EASILLY picked up.


I won't critique other aspects of this build, but you should use shuriken instead of javelins, since you can flurry with them. You avoid needing Quick Draw, and you get more attacks, at a higher bonus.


Oserath wrote:
I won't critique other aspects of this build, but you should use shuriken instead of javelins, since you can flurry with them. You avoid needing Quick Draw, and you get more attacks, at a higher bonus.

But really bad range:(

Digital Products Assistant

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Removed a post and the replies to it. Let's not turn an advice thread in that direction, please.


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Alex Mack wrote:

Hmm considering you are pointing out how hard you're monk is to kill the following numbers at level 8 seem a bit worrisome:

AC:22 HP:63

Critcal hit with a Great Axe from an 18 STR level 8 warrior with power attack is gonna be around 60 damage.

Not saying it's a bad build but in my book with those numbers you don't qualify as a front liner. Still there is some solid advice here.

Yeah, I can order some of the items differently to build more AC or HP at that level. It lower HP and AC than the comparative fighter at this level, but about 2x the save.

At level 16, the AC and HP matched the fighter, but still with 2x the save. I did pump the fighter full of alternate defensive items though.

Most classes at L8 are vulnerable to a crit from a Great Axe fighter though right?


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In response to a few other things.

I did play this build for about 3 years in a long running campaign, so, I can answer some of those other questions.

The build assumes that you'll sometimes need to refresh Enlarge or Greater Magic Fang. I'd kept potions handy and lost one of my Permanency spells once, which I had to replace.

To be fair, several other PCs lost expensive weapons to things like Rust Monsters or Sunder, and the Wizard lost a spell book.

Inside an anti-magic field... I did fight inside one, thankfully not against a dragon. Monks keep a lot more benefits than most classes inside an Anti-Magic Field. Yes, I'd lose a lot of damage, and reach, but was still better off than the pure casters. Fighters also draw a lot of damage and AC from enhancements that go away inside an AMF.

I believe that I just grappled an enemy cleric and beat the hell out of him during the time stuck in the anti-magic field. I did take more damage than usual though.

As to what does a monk do better than any other class?

What this build did on a regular basis was...
- No matter what the situation, the monk never got completely shut down. AMF reduces a wizard to nothing, and falling in a lake or being dominated can end a fighter or rogue's encounter. But even if I did eat a target dispel magic, that just let the rest of the party not eat a worse spell, and the build still functioned at a more standard "monk level".

- In that campaign, I'd adjusted the build slightly and had a very high initiative. Between that and very high perception, we often had surprise rounds or initiative advantage.

The monk is the best melee class for closing the distance in any number of ways on his target of choice, and disabling that target.

In the campaign, there were many instances where I'd charge through traps to get to an enemy caster, or jump a chasm, or tumble through foes.

There were sessions where I had a starring role, and sessions where the monk performed very well, but maybe the Druid edged him out. But he never had a bad session.

When I run campaigns, I regularly see players who build very strong builds, end up having that "bad session" where they fell victim to Hold Person, or a bad Poison, or Blindness, or the Wizard got stunned, or whatever.

And for the next few rounds, the party is bailing the normally effective PC out of a jam.

The monk can pick his spots, start off the combat, set up great flanks for any rogues in the party, disable enemy casters in many cases, and is just far more difficult to completely disable than most classes.

I used to love D&D Minis... those tactical battles... and the Monk in D&D or Pathfinder was the "mini" who set the tone of the whole fight.

Our party performed largely like a swat team or special forces squad, moving quickly, (I'd kick in doors even if they were trapped and just make the save).

Honestly it was a lot of fun.

If the build isn't your taste, that's totally cool, but it did actually work very well.

If you're on the fence, take a Monk like this and use him as an NPC against your party. Mix him in with an enemy Druid so you can Enlarge, Barkskin, and GMF the Monk (and not give away as much treasure if they do manage to take him out).

Even if the PC Wizard does use a target dispel on the monk, that's normally a round of combat on a single target de-buff that the caster can't afford to lose.

Also keep in mind that these builds don't list many other buff spells that are quite possible to have. (Bless or Aid, Heroism, higher bonus Bull's STR or Barkskin at low levels, etc.)


The problem is: a home game is no good source to evaluate the power of your monk or to compare the build to other concepts.

Yes, in some ways you do better than a fighter but that isnt hard to pull off actually. But compared to most other martials you dont really have an advantage when it comes to fighting - barbarians, paladins, magi, inquisitors and so many other classes and builds are just superior when it comes to fighting. And most of them bring even more out of battle features than your monk.

Silver Crusade

I disagree, as much as I LOVE my paladin, I cannot
a- get to the BBEG (or some NPC) that needs to be taken out asap all the time reliably. same goes for barbs, though this is easier for them
b- I cannot acrobatics and stealth my way into an area to scout it as a paladin, again easier as a barb, but monk rules the jump/climb shticks.
c-incapacitate the BBEG in any way bar reducing hp to 0.

as I have said earlier, monks just are not supposed to have massive DPR like the fighter or barbar. Only truly optimized monks can come -close- (temple sword monk for example, or martial artist). I loved my martial artist, but thats more flavor, a brawler fighter with 2 dips does that better, but a fighter will never be able to compete with the monk when it comes to actually USING maneuvers. the main reason? move speed. The fight will take ~3 turns longer to actually get to that BBEG unless you are always in a 30x30 room (and even then.. its possible to keep a fighter away), which, I find rather boring.

I have seen several very good monk builds, and even played a monk once or twice. I still say they need to rely on upping there defense, and focusing on maneuvers or grappling. (I prefer the maneuvers, as you can spice things up with several different ones, but a tetori is hard to stop, even if your a huge creature, you fear the tetori monk)


rorek55 wrote:

I disagree, as much as I LOVE my paladin, I cannot

a- get to the BBEG (or some NPC) that needs to be taken out asap all the time reliably. same goes for barbs, though this is easier for them

None of them have flight. At levels 1-2 the barb is faster, the same goes for levels 6-11 where haste is common. The monk is faster only at levels 15+ and when the barb is unhasted. While the monk can get a bonus to acrobatics by spending precious Ki for one round, the barbarian likely has higher stats and because it's less wealth reliant can afford gear to buff mobility easier (boots of striding, potions of fly etc)

And an archer paladin that's up against an evil BBEG can smite the crap out of it at any distance.

Quote:


b- I cannot acrobatics and stealth my way into an area to scout it as a paladin, again easier as a barb, but monk rules the jump/climb shticks.

Monks don't rule the "jump/climb" shticks. Someone with Spider Climb or Fly rules those, regardless of class. Getting +20 to jump by spending precious Ki is nice, but a 250 gp potion of Jump grants that benefit for _five minutes_, not to talk about getting actual flight.

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c-incapacitate the BBEG in any way bar reducing hp to 0.

Both classes are infinately better than the monk at reducing hp though, and yeah, the barbarian is at least as good as combat maneuvers as the monk. No, scratch that, a barbarian built for even circumstantially using maneuvers is way, way, way better than a monk at it. Strength Surge is pretty absurd, basically doubles your BAB for a maneuver.

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I have seen several very good monk builds,

Me too. Zen archers all, or so heavily multiclassed there's not much monk left.


While this build was used in a home game, both myself and the other GM have run many sessions at conventions.

Typically, our home sessions are more difficult than the sessions you get at conventions (more time to craft difficult encounters in difficult environments than most 'out of book' modules), but, the point may be that, it's harder to count on getting access to items or spells you need in a setting where you're running under different GMs all the time?

But if that's the case, then how can people argue against the value of the monk's mobility... "You can just buy a potion of spider climb or fly or jump"

But at the same time, people are saying, "The monk is vulnerable to dispel magic... or the monk can't count on getting the buffs he needs in a non home brew setting"

If you can't count on support in a non-home brew setting, then that would apply to any class right?

Don't most people attend gaming sessions with at least one friend? So it's valuable to partner that Barbarian with say, his Wizard buddy.

A monk could game with his druid buddy, or rogue with UMD who buffs the monk pre fight, and the monk uses mobility to set up flanks for the rogue.

Most of the other melee classes eventually get things to compensate for their bad Will saves, but, it's much more likely at various points to have a Barbarian, Fighter or Rogue taken out of a battle completely by save or X - Will Save spells.

I think the main area where this monk build would have problems would be if a GM hates monks, doesn't build a variety of challenges, or where you're constantly facing high AC, high physical damage foes in small spaces.

Any GM can come up with things to counter any class. But if you just mix in random challenges, the Monk is generally the hardest to disable or prevent from reaching his target.

The worst moment I had with this Monk was vs an Enlarged Duergar fighter at a higher level, wearing spiked armor, who got into a wrestling match with the Monk.

But comparatively, the other players spent time drowning, poisoned, dominated, charmed, held, stunned, taking full damage from an area spell, etc.

From what I've seen on many forums, I could probably play this build right beside certain players, play it effectively for a few straight years, and they still wouldn't believe that it's a reasonable, effective choice.

Keep in mind that I'm not suggesting "don't play a Barbarian"

I'm just saying, "if you want to play a melee oriented monk, this build works pretty well, and I've played it extensively"

Paladins can be extremely effective but I agree with the posts that talk about how difficult it can be to get that kind of melee fighter where he wants to be.

It's only reasonable to assume that you might be able to quaff one potion before a fight, and if you do have more time to buff, the encounter may be on the other side of a locked door.

So as a fighter, you can't know if you'll need your potion of fly before a fight...

But the 50gp potion of Enlarge for a Monk? It's only 50gp. Use before every fight.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

^5 YRM

Silver Crusade

Ijia- I will laugh as I throw huge + monsters with my monk and say,can you do dat? *wooo ki throw*


rorek55 wrote:
Ijia- I will laugh as I throw huge + monsters with my monk and say,can you do dat? *wooo ki throw*

My Barbarian would probably reply "That's cool kid" as he stands atop the bent and broken corpse of the same poor bastard you just sent for a fun little trip.


I did create a few competing warrior type builds and even ran a few test battles.

With the monk enlarged and having deflect arrows, plus doing relatively strong damage with javelins and having strong grappling bonuses, with good initiative, he has some pretty strong ways to start a fight.

If a competing fighter shoots at him, he can deflect at least one of the hits per turn. I didn't put it in these builds but normally I'd carry about 15-20 javelins.

If you can force them to come to you, with your greater movement, you can force them to charge or double move in and take an attack of opportunity, from which you can deliver an attempted stun or trip.

They get one attack... and as pointed out, if it's one attack that happens to crit and confirm with an uber STR great axe... well, that's the way the dice bounce.

But on the flip side, if your AoO Stun or your next round Stun attempts work... the enemy is disarmed, and you get a full round flurry against a foe who loses their Dex bonus to AC.

If this monk gets a full round flurry against a tripped and/or stunned foe, you're looking at (L16 build with buffs above), an average of 31 damage per hit... 8 attacks.

Not every attack hits but you have a 10% chance to crit too.

So let's say that 5 attacks hit, and one crits.

That full round is 186 damage, plus the damage taken on the first "stunning fist". (another 31)

So, with a very simple combo, that can be achieved just from having reach, stunning fist, and getting an Attack of Opportunity, you do 217 damage without hitting all of your attacks.

Against a Stunned opponent, (and you have two chances to pull that off), you can often hit more than 5 out of 8.

You have the movement, initiative, and defense to sort of force them to come to you, unless they are committing to, and very good with the bow.

And if they ARE going full round Composite Longbow on you... the monk can charge in from 160 feet away, attempt a stun, and unless the fighter or barbarian has quick draw, it's going to take actions to get that weapon back out.

With Reach, they can't take a 5' step away to fire the bow again.

The typical builds I'm seeing in Fighters at similar levels have a Fort save at around +17 or so. The stunning fist has a DC of 24. If you get an AoO stun, and attempt it on both of the next two rounds, you have a fairly good shot of pulling that off.

(or trip instead if the guy is built even heavier on Fort save)

But even without the guy being stunned, the bonus to hit is high enough to still deliver the damage outlined above on the first full round attack.

And with all that in mind, going up against a pure melee beast is probably what the Monk does WORST.

The fact that he can hold his own, but still be harder to disable in combat and be better at reaching and disabling casters, is what I mean by the Monk's role defined as the kind of hard to stop striker that can greatly alter how a combat plays out.


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The problem being that, while your Monk is amazing at STARTING a fight (since, barring a Pouncing Barbarian, nobody else will be getting a full attack that round), he's not really good at ending it.

And his fight starting relies on Stunning Fist, a 1/round ability that has a slim chance of working if you're not Wis based somehow.

The problem with your entire argument is summed up in this one line.

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So, with a very simple combo, that can be achieved just from having reach, stunning fist, and getting an Attack of Opportunity, you do 217 damage without hitting all of your attacks.

IF you're buffed, IF you get an AoO, and IF you Stun the target, you can do 217 damage a round, which is a respectable sum, but it relies on way too many assumptions for it to happen, and STILL doesn't match most other dedicated martial characters, which is what you're attempting to be here.

Like I said, the built is alright. But it's definitely not EXCELLING every round because of those factors.


rorek55 wrote:

I disagree, as much as I LOVE my paladin, I cannot

a- get to the BBEG (or some NPC) that needs to be taken out asap all the time reliably. same goes for barbs, though this is easier for them

You are a paladin, you have proficiency with longbows and the ability to smite. Distance to the target is not a problem if you are properly equipped.

rorek55 wrote:
b- I cannot acrobatics and stealth my way into an area to scout it as a paladin, again easier as a barb, but monk rules the jump/climb shticks.

You are a paladin, you are not a sneak.

rorek55 wrote:
c-incapacitate the BBEG in any way bar reducing hp to 0.

I'm sorry, is there a more reliable way of doing this? Besides you are as capable as any class of getting combat maneuver feats.

On the other hand, the paladin can heal the party (the monk cannot), and cast spells (the monk cannot), as well as be a solid tank.

rorek55 wrote:
as I have said earlier, monks just are not supposed to have massive DPR like the fighter or barbar.

Which is a problem, because it's the only reliable way of contributing to a fight.

rorek55 wrote:
I loved my martial artist, but thats more flavor, a brawler fighter with 2 dips does that better, but a fighter will never be able to compete with the monk when it comes to actually USING maneuvers. the main reason? move speed. The fight will take ~3 turns longer to actually get to that BBEG unless you are always in a 30x30 room (and even then.. its possible to keep a fighter away), which, I find rather boring.

Strange, this has never happened to me in ANY game. Unless we were always outside, and then we were usually mounted, and it was never a problem. With haste the most common buff above 5th level, everyone is as fast as the monk until 15th level.

As for using maneuvers, the fighter is WAY better at them, and can use them with some much better weapons.

rorek55 wrote:
I have seen several very good monk builds, and even played a monk once or twice. I still say they need to rely on upping there defense, and focusing on maneuvers or grappling. (I prefer the maneuvers, as you can spice things up with several different ones, but a tetori is hard to stop, even if your a huge creature, you fear the tetori monk)

Maneuvers are situational, and do not scale well at higher levels. That's the problem with them.

YRM wrote:
If you can't count on support in a non-home brew setting, then that would apply to any class right?

But only the monk needs that support to function in his intended role.

YRM wrote:
Don't most people attend gaming sessions with at least one friend? So it's valuable to partner that Barbarian with say, his Wizard buddy.

Yes, but do THEY want to spend time buffing or do they want to do something else? For example, I had a monk in long-term game with:

A paladin smite-o-matic
A magus who loved to get stuck into the action
An oracle who focussed on healing and zapping the enemy
A ranger-archer
My poor monk

No buffers, you see. It was all we could do to get the magus to take a crafting feat or two and make a few items we needed. If we were lucky, he might buff us with haste once in a blue moon, otherwise it was self-only. The oracle didn't have the spells to buff, and wasn't interested in them.

The problem is, the monk player does not dictate what the other players play, or how they play them. Every other class stands well on it's own, the monk should too.

YRM wrote:
Most of the other melee classes eventually get things to compensate for their bad Will saves, but, it's much more likely at various points to have a Barbarian, Fighter or Rogue taken out of a battle completely by save or X - Will Save spells.

It happens, but not often enough that having a good Will save is worth giving up your offensive capacity.

YRM wrote:
I think the main area where this monk build would have problems would be if a GM hates monks, doesn't build a variety of challenges, or where you're constantly facing high AC, high physical damage foes in small spaces.

Like BBEGs in a dungeon? Those are the tough fights, the ones where you need to pull the stops out. In fact any high-AC target taxes the monk more than any other martial class.

YRM wrote:
Any GM can come up with things to counter any class. But if you just mix in random challenges, the Monk is generally the hardest to disable or prevent from reaching his target.

...or anyone else able to fly.

...and the monk is the least able to do anything to the enemy when they get there. I agree, using the monk to tie down an enemy in advance of the party is one of the monk's best strategies - or would be, if he was actually able to tie them down.


Rynjin wrote:

IF you're buffed, IF you get an AoO, and IF you Stun the target, you can do 217 damage a round, which is a respectable sum, but it relies on way too many assumptions for it to happen, and STILL doesn't match most other dedicated martial characters, which is what you're attempting to be here.

Like I said, the built is alright. But it's definitely not EXCELLING every round because of those factors.

The build assumes that you are pushing for permanent GMF and Enlarge, while still carrying a wand of GMF and potions of Enlarge.

Given that GMF lasts for an hour per level, and Enlarge is cheap. It's not a big assumption at all that these spells would be in place.

Haste is a free action with boots of speed when the build uses those.

The attack of opportunity comes with Enlarge vs any opponent who lacks reach and can't tumble in or 5' step in. The monk's movement and initiative allows you to move away behind cover and drink a potion on round 1 if you're not already enlarged.

You can set up the distances to make it impossible for the opponent to tumble in or 5' step in.

So it really should be likely that you get the AoO every fight, unless the guy is a pole-arm specialist.

These 1-1 fights aren't very normal in game sessions, but, given that a Monk's STR comes from resisting most of the varied encounters and threats in a campaign (poison, pits, area damage, touch attacks, arrows, etc)... my reasoning is that if he can ALSO compete against melee specialists, even 45% of the time, it's worth it because you have the speed and defensive benefits ALL the rest of the time.

In my actual practices, the Monk won more than 45% of these fights but I'm sure I didn't test it against every build.

When a barbarian rages and uses a two handed weapon, typically, their AC is a little lower than I was projecting.

It's quite possible in that case, that the Monk hits every one of his attacks, or at least 7 out of 8.

He doesn't have to beat the Barbarian or Fighter every time to be effective though.

If he wins almost half the time... but benefits from Monk defenses and speed in dozens and dozens of normal encounters, then, it's worth the slight tradeoff in melee for the huge boost in defense and speed.

(granted a hasted barbarian is equally fast, and can take a lot of physical damage, and isn't likely to sink like a stone in a lake either... but also typically has much lower WILL/REFLEX and much lower Touch AC)

Personally, I love a good Barbarian Build. I think they're highly viable too.

It's not that the monk is better, it's just that he has a role, and he can excel in a group like any other well built class can excel.

That's my point.


Quote:
Like BBEGs in a dungeon? Those are the tough fights, the ones where you need to pull the stops out. In fact any high-AC target taxes the monk more than any other martial class.

Other than dragons... most BBEGs I've seen are not alone.

They don't always have super high AC either. They might have, for example, Anti-Life-Shell + Wind Wall + Mirror Image + Blur + Spell Resistance + Energy Resistance + Fire Shield.

It might be a Giant who has several support clerics or mages or whatnot.

It might be a Hag with several beefy bodyguards.

It might be a Wizard with a Cleric second in command and several high level fighter bodyguards.

In those cases... in practice, I'd typically go for the casters or archers or healers who sat in the back, because I could get there and disable them. The Druid in the party and his companion would move up and engage the front line melee of the enemy. (possibly dropping a few spells first)

The wizard and cleric would use Dispel Magic and other de-buffs or limiting spells on the BBEG

Once we'd lowered some of the support, the Monk would set up flanks for the Rogue on the BBEG as the Druid and Companion moved up.

(party was Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Monk, Rogue)

You're right, the one place I'd have trouble is VS an EXTREMELY high AC, but flanking tended to compensate pretty well.

Over the long haul, the benefits outweighed the negatives just about every time.

It may not always be like that, it depends on the GM. We did run a combination of pre-built and home-brew encounters, and the home-brew were always harder.

Everything always depends on the GM though to some extent right?

If you play in a campaign world where metal is unheard of, it's probably not wise to be a plate-mail fighter. Lol.

Anyway guys, I'm really enjoying the debate/discussion. If you have Herolab and paste a few builds at me, I'll run them at the monk and see how it goes.

All the best.

Silver Crusade

DPR is most certainly NOT the only way to reliably contribute in combat.


rorek55 wrote:
DPR is most certainly NOT the only way to reliably contribute in combat.

Well, there's also spells, but since we're talking monk, here... Pretty much it is. There are enough things immune, or virtually immune to the different combat maneuvers, and Defense focused builds don't really do much, if you can't get enemies to focus on you. Stunning Fist rarely works, even against the targets it'd be best at. DPR is where the monk really can at least hope to compete, and it flounders at that, too.

Scarab Sages

rorek55 wrote:
DPR is most certainly NOT the only way to reliably contribute in combat.

What tools does a high level core monk have to contribute to combat that isn't DPR?

Maneuvers won't work for the core monk in 75% of high level fights.

The monk has no spells.

Stunning fist/Quivering Palm is unlikely to succeed due to having to hit and the target making the saving throw against a DC that is low unless you maxed WIS, thus further hurting your DPR.

I suppose you could use aid another or throw alchemical items and contribute, but that isn't really helping much is it?

Archetypes and style feats help, but the monk class is designed to do damage. It just is stopped from doing damage by MADness and its own class features that enable it to do damage in the first place.

Silver Crusade

if you focus on one maneuver then yes, but I have yet come across something immune to: trips, grapple, blind, and or disarm/sunder. Sure when you/if you DO find something immune to ALL of these you have to rely on your damage, which would be lower, due to to-hits. But to be fair, that fight is probably for the fighter/paladin to shine. each class has there shining moment/areas. Saying the monk is a bad class because he contributes slightly less on the really Big Big bbeg fights where the BBEG fights alone because he really IS just that badass is like saying a wizard is a bad class because he can die to a full round attack from a monk after a stunning fist hit.


rorek55 wrote:
if you focus on one maneuver then yes, but I have yet come across something immune to: trips, grapple, blind, and or disarm/sunder.

A flying creature with nasty natural attacks isn't that uncommon. Nor bad guys with big CMDs.

rorek55 wrote:
Saying the monk is a bad class because he contributes slightly less on the really Big Big bbeg fights where the BBEG fights alone because he really IS just that badass is like saying a wizard is a bad class because he can die to a full round attack from a monk after a stunning fist hit.

Not even close to the same thing. The monk has a lot less of a chance to kill a wizard with a stunning fist than he does to not contribute very well, if that makes sense.

I mean, I guess he can shine elsewhere, but that place wasn't really named.

Spoiler:
Manuevers can shine pretty well against foes with low CMD and who lack immunities, they just aren't the ones you tend to fight. Lots of monsters are high CMD and lots of immunities though. Again though, CMB isn't the most reliable, and just outright killing them like some classes can seems a lot more efficient, and other classes outshine the monk at the sort of CC maneuvers provide.

Edit: Might be best just to talk about the build posted though.

Silver Crusade

I disagree with the outclassing, a maneuver master has access to greater feats without prereqs, as well as getting to FULL ATTACK and then add on 1-3 (4?) Maneuvers, taking TWF penalties on them, but still gets extra attempts, no other class can claim 3 trip attempts (much less an AoE trip attempt vs all enemies in range) other than the MM monk.

you say they are not uncommon, I would dare say they are, I have played a good bit of PF, and I rarely see any until ~level 9+ where you start grabbing your grapples. Which ARE effective VS flying.

I have seen several "boss" fights ended (or would have been ended if not for GM god intervention :P) due to the monk locking them down. I will say though, at the more magical creatures BBEG are harder to do this to. Though I guess its more of a GM flavor thing, but a lot of the APs have a good many enemies the above monk can mess with.

also, I still disagree, if the monk can get to the wizard before he gets spells off,(even then, the monk has a damned good chance to negate most spells casts -against- him, the Wizard will most likely be hit, and will most likely fail his save.)

also, monks are an additional set of actions and another meat target, which in itself helps out. (seriously, why wouldn't the enemies target the half naked man for a round or two if he is close by?) If they are intelligent enemies they are -usually- less likely to resist maneuvers, if they are beasts, the monk is the a tasty looking morsel since he isn't encased in smelly armor.

but if you measure a monk by pure DPR, then yes, he is one of the lesser martial classes. Every class has a weakness, some have more weakness than others, I admit the monk is easy to mess up when building, and requires a bit more system knowledge than others to make more effective, That doesn't mean they suck.

Classes have there niche areas, if you want a pure damage dealing monster, do not play a monk. Simple, if you want something can do things other than run up and hit things or (the cool part, go toe-to-toe vs BBEGs, which monks can do fairly well, with their uber defenses) Monks can be used to good effect. My above build doesn't rely on many buffs, the only one he would really -need- (want) is enlarge person and/or haste.

Silver Crusade

that said, I see peoples points and views.

EDIT: also, as a swift action MM monks can add wis bonus to their CMB.


rorek55 wrote:

that said, I see peoples points and views.

EDIT: also, as a swift action MM monks can add wis bonus to their CMB.

You clearly haven't played much high-level PF, especially High-level PF Monk, if you think that matters much.

Silver Crusade

~+10 always matters, whether its a lot or a little.

Scarab Sages

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rorek55 wrote:
~+10 always matters, whether its a lot or a little.

ok, you are fighting a pit fiend. He is flying, so immune to trip. Natural weapons are immune to disarm/sunder. It has constrict, so grappling it will damage you. Your best chance is a dirty trick, but a cmd of 53 makes that highly unlikely of making it land, even with a +10 bonus.

This is before we even get to spells.

High level boss monster fights make maneuvers a loosing option.

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