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Night Monarch

WormysQueue's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Society Member. 970 posts (985 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 6 aliases.


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The Exchange

Alex G St-Amand wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

I dont get what your point is, are you trying to start a popularity contest....

help me out a bit more please:)

People who have likes, dislikes, dificulties, fun, etc with an AP will often have similar likes, dislikes, dificulties, fun, etc with other APs by the same author.

It also looks like some people have an easier time with Rob's APs while some have an easier time with James'.

I think I get where you come from. Every author has a certain style and certain preferences and develops certain patterns. So it's quite possible that a problem you have with a specific work can also arise in other works of the same author.

And it's certainly due to "Paizo" authors like James and Erik, Pett, Vaughn and Logue (to name but a few) which made me into a fan of all things Paizo and till today their name on a product's cover is enough to pique my interest.

So certainly this could go in the other direction as well. Luckily I don't think that I had this problem with any of the authors working for Paizo so far, but there are authors out there whose work I've got problems with.

The Exchange

havoc xiii wrote:

Alot of the things you just mentioned appear throughout the FR books....

But they are Greyhawk in origin. And the promoted setting for organized play was Living Greyhawk. And while nearly every rule book contained greyhawk references, you wouldn't normally find any Realms references.

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"memorax“ wrote:
All the complaints that I hear about 3.5./PF were fixed to some degree or another in 4E. Yet the same people who complained about the problems in 3.5/PF then complained that they actually fixed the flaws of 3.5./PF.

Not quite true (apart from some people). Most people (like me) never complained about fixed flaws. We complained about those fixes we had never asked for because they solved problems we never had, never perceived as problems or even considered as assets instead.

Now one player's bug may be another player's feature. Solve both "problems" and chances are that you alienate both players.

And that's what happened. The designers changed so much that it was nearly inevitable that some of those changes would be disliked by any given player (who happened to like the older version). And even if you had no problems with the system at all, you probably disliked their handling of the settings (especially the new realms, but also the general setting publication policy), or their new licensing policy.

I admit that I never cared much for the 4e system. But what I cared for was the OGL and the pre-4e Forgotten Realms. And what made me eventually convert to Pathfinder was that I simply prefer paizo products over WOTC products.

The Exchange

Forever Slayer wrote:

Well we all know the basic rules for D&D 5th edition are free for download. If you've read over them, what do you think?

Does it seem like a game you are going to play?

Maybe, but at the moment I doubt it.

Main reason being that I try to get my kids into RPGs, and while Pathfinder has a German localization, I don't think that D&D Next will get one.

Apart from that: from the little I've seen so far, it feels like real D&D to me (contrary to the former edition which I had some problems with getting into), so it's definitely something I would play. If I would run it depends on what I find in the 3 Core Books, namely if it feels different enough from Pathfinder to be used as an alternative system.

The Exchange

Marc Radle wrote:
Soccer is slowly becoming a pretty big deal here! :)

I've actually wondered why this didn't happen a long time ago, especially since most immigrants to the U.S. came/come from countries where soccer is a pretty big deal.

Does anyone have an idea about this?

CapeCodRPGer wrote:
I can't get into soccer. I don't understand why people go nuts when people are able to kick something the size of a soccer ball into a huge 24 foot by 8 foot opening.

Because this sounds much easier than it is in reality (especially if there are any opponents on the field).

Personally I think it's because of its inherent randomness. David winning against Goliath seems like an impossibility in most other sports, but in soccer it happens all the time (Costa Rica being the most recent example).

I tend to compare it to roleplaying games. It's much more exciting if you can't be sure you'll be victorious and if character death is an actual possibility.

Doesn't naturally change the fact that Germany will win the Cup this time, though being one of the favourites from Day 1. :D

The Exchange

Well I still like the fiction (which is the only thing I actually have read in a lot of Pathfinder issues so far). It can and often does add a lot of atmosphere to an adventure locality,which is something the other parts of the AP often fail to convey due to space reasons. I had to skip the last AP and the fiction was what I missed most. So I guess it's safe to say that the APs would lose at least some of their value for me if they came without fiction.
I don't mind the bit of material coming with the new format, though. Makes it easier to use during a game session so I guess it is a good compromise.

The Exchange

Another thing to consider is, that it may be only a problem for those players who can afford to play through all those APs. At the moment, I'm "only" reading the APs because I don't have a group, but when I think of my old group we probably would have needed at least 2 years to go through a single AP so this theme wouldn't happen at the game table as often as it is in the books. So assuming that I didn't read the AP I don't run I probably wasn't even aware of this coincidence.

Apart from that, I think that Lord Snow is right on the money. Most players aren't used to "lose" anymore and tend to consider it as unfair if it happens. So it would be a real stunt to involve them in events they can't (or arent't supposed to) win for story reasons. On the other hand most AP adventures are all about stopping threats so to have one or two bad things happening in their absence serve to remind them that they simply can't be everywhere.

I understand the criticism, though. It can be hard when such a catastrophe is the reward for you following the plotline aka doing what you are supposed to do by the author. Especially if you don't even have a choice or possibilty to do something against it. Personally, what I would like to see is to have the PC make the choice between different threats. And while they stop one threat letting the other events run their course. I'm not sure though that this is doable within the frame of an AP-format adventure because you would have to use space to describe events the PCs eventually won't have a part in. And it could be equally depressive for the players to know beforehand that there will happen bad things they can't stop (If we stop the assassination attempt on the king, noone will be there to stop the orc invasion).

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Cthulhudrew wrote:
Also: Final Fantasy games, Marvel and DC comics, a whole host of rpgs (TORG, Rifts, Amazing Engine, Shadowrun

The thing is: I love all those things, but that doesn't mean that I have to mix them with my usual D&D (and as an Extension of it: Pathfinder) stuff, which, for me, is pure Fantasy without any sci-fi influences.

We'll see what it means for the Numeria-AP. I guess, in the end, that it will contain a lot of things for me to mine of, but I doubt that I ever will want to play it as it is; but then, if other players love this, then that's all the reason I need not to be too adverse to this idea.

The Exchange

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Rynjin wrote:
Your preference is a low power game, which is fine, but it is not something that this game was created to have in mind.

I'm well aware of this and actually admitted that in my first post to which you answered: "You don't balance for suck". The Rest was me explaining why what you consider to suck I actually consider worth playing.

I guess I'm just a bit sad that I really would have liked to like Pathfinder (RPG) especially when D&D 4E already went in another direction.

The Exchange

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Rynjin wrote:
But the bottom can never be "too good".

That's where I disagree, because it depends on which kind of fantasy you wanna play. And my problem with modern D&D/PF is that basically you already start out as hero at level 1 while in former editions you could start from zero (or at least it was easier to pretend so).

When the Pathinder thing started the advice on converting 3.5 adventures was to simply assume that PFRPG characters were a level higher than their PF counterparts. That was kind of the moment I became aware that in Pathfinder the bottom already is too good for my tastes.

The Exchange

Weirdo wrote:
This is true whether you call it explicit memory vs implicit memory, conscious vs subconscious, mind vs soul.

I'm no expert on this topic so please allow me a question: Do you think that Modify Memory only erases explicit memory and if so, why do you believe that? I took a look at the spell and it seems to say that it erases "ALL" memory which in my mind could easily include implicit memories as well.

The Exchange

Rynjin wrote:
As I've stated repeatedly in the TF2 Pyro forums, you don't balance for suck, you balance towards the middle.

I don't think the fighter sucks. He's fine as he is. It's just that I think that Ryan Dancey was right about his 4 quartiles of play within D&D:

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes

Problem being that I'm not interested the least in the last two quartiles (they are what suck as far as I am concerned), so I'd rather prefer them being thrown out of the game, instead of changing the fighter into something I'm not interested either.

What you propose was what WotC tried to do with 4E. From what I've heard and seen, they may have been successful to a degree, but that only resulted in me not wanting to play the game at all (because their level 1 characters were way to powerful for my tastes).

The Exchange

Well I admit that for me, the ideal solution would be to bring down all other classes to the fighter's level. I know that won't happen, though.

The Exchange

Rynjin wrote:
Why does the 16 year old, mostly uneducated rage machine, get more than the 18 year old, highly trained soldier?

Well I'm sure that when we kicked the Romans' asses 2000 years ago they asked themselves the same question ;)

The thing is that a fighter can be build as a highly trained soldier. But the fighter class can also be used to build an uneducated brawler from the street, an uncivilized barbarian or even a ranger (as a general concept). So to me, a fighter is just a template for "someone who fights".

Now I'm not arguing your specific points (in my mind, a fighter SHOULD HAVE Perception as a class skill and he surely should have more skill points than a barbarian).

But still you can do those multi-functional fighters and I don't care one bit if they are comparable to what you can do with other classes (especially as I think that most of the other classes are way too strong and should be nerfed heavily; but that's aside the point). And from a roleplaying perspective, it may make more sense to build a concept with the fighter than with say, a barbarian. Because historically speaking, not every barbarian in world history had the rage powers adscribed to the norse berserkers.

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Irontruth wrote:
Yes, a Fighter can put points into Diplomacy. So can a Barbarian, or Bard. So that has nothing to do with being a Fighter, does it? A Commoner can put points into Diplomacy as well.

Well you could argue that the fighter, having much more feats than any other class, can use those feats to increase his Out-of-Combat abilities without sacrificing too much combat-wise. That's something other classes cannot and it's something which is class-inherent.

But the main point being made is that you can build such a fighter at all. So claims that the fighter is totally useless out of combat (a claim you didn't make in this threat but that can be seen all the time here or elsewhere) are simply wrong.

Mortuum wrote:
It's something, but you'd still need a very compelling reason to go with the fighter if you wanted UMD and diplomacy. I, for one, can't think of such a reason.

Well, in our games, I tend to be the one responsible for social skills simply because the other players don't care too much about it. And while I enjoy playing bards, it's still good to know that I can cover this area with other classes as well. Quite frankly, that reason's good enough for me.

The Exchange

GrenMeera wrote:
Rules lawyers getting flack on an internet forum is a fairly interesting form of hypocrisy.

Well, in my eyes it's a natural reaction to some rule lawyers' arrogance to tell us that we're doing it wrong if we're not doing it according to the rules.

Though to be honest, I could live without both kind of arguments.

The Exchange

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gamer-printer wrote:
I don't want my child in my home to be exposed to any possible threats.

Yeah, that's why it is such a great idea to keep guns in one's home.

The Exchange

Well I really love the "Monster revisited" books. Great background for those critters and as they already existed in the game, they contain not much needing conversion (and probably will directly fit into your own game world.

Then the City books. You mentioned Magnimar, but the books for Korvosa Absalom and Kaer Maga also contain lots and lots of ideas to mine from.

Well, and if you already haven't a place for the Darkmoon Vale, you should really try to find it.

The Exchange

johnlocke90 wrote:
Its important to distinguish between special to the PCs and special to the players. Its very easy to make spell casters seem special to the characters. The DM just says "spell casters are rare in the world."

That's a good point, by the way. Magic doesn't necessarily needs to be rare to feel special. Even when running a game in the Forgotten Realms it's not as if there's an archmage or a mythal to find at every street corner. So for a lot of people, the party wizard may well be the first wizard they've ever seen in their whole life. It's their reactions what will make the wizard feel special not the behaviour of the other player characters.

Same goes for magic items. The +1 longsword you get after slaying the Dungeon's end boss may well feel special to you if it's the first or the only +1 longsword you encounter. It will feel a lot less special if every opponent you encounter seems to wear one.

The Exchange

kyrt-ryder wrote:
See, in a setting like that the only class I would be able to will myself to play is a Wizard or MAYBE a Sorcerer if they didn't get screwed too much by 'not getting a proper education.'

You just have to be aware that the DSA wizard isn't nearly as powerful as his D&D equivalent. While there are no level limitations, the Manapool heavily restricts your ability to cast spells. The example wizard from the 4E PHB has 37 mana points. Each point of damage she causes with the Ignifaxius spell costs 1 mana point, so as a level 1 wizard, she probably can't cast this spell more than 4 or 5 times before she runs out of mana points.

That is if she successfully casts the spell. Because for each spell, she has to successfully pass a little skill challenge (basically she has to make three attribute checks in related attributes and may in sum not fail those checks for more than the number of talent points she has invested in the respective spell. And if she fails, she loses mana points as well), so the success isn't a given thing.

It's quite complicated (that's the reason I prefer D&D/PF over DSA though I really like the DSA setting), but it makes sure that the other classes have plenty of opportunities to shine even at high levels,while magic still has this little extra which makes it special enough to be attractive.

The Exchange

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shallowsoul wrote:
Then why do we need multiple printings of a book

The truth is, we don't. Or better, I don't. And my players don't either. I've yet to take a look in any of the errata documents published by Paizo, and we're still singing the same song nonetheless.

The Exchange

Starbuck_II wrote:
Real people don't do stuff on purpose to weaken themselves.

They don't do it on purpose. They do it all the time nonetheless (Cause nobody is perfect, right?). And even if told that they're making a mistake, they chose not to believe it (I guess all parents know what I'm talking about).

So roleplaying a real person means roleplaying a character who will sometimes make a non-optimal decision. That may even happen if the player behind the character knows that it is not an optimal decision.

I don't know if Power Gamers necessarily call this "a stupid idea" when confronted with this style of roleplaying. I know that jerks do.

The Exchange

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Arturick wrote:
Which, ironically, just means that the GM was obligated to hand out more magical treasure.

No he wasn't. In fact, the GM had much more control about how magical his world should be than he has nowadays. But then, the industry thought it would be a great idea to take this control out of the hands of the GM for pure economical reasons (if the players also can use the books, we'll sell more of them). I can't really blame them for wanting to sell their products but in my opinion that kind of thinking is responsible for much of the changes of the game which rub me the wrong way (Power creep being one of them).

To be honest, I don't buy your premise that magic in D&D never was special because of the existence of the M-U and the Cleric. Because then, you didn't need a high magic world to challenge the party, so the party's M-U could well be the exception than the rule (like Gandalf is part of a tiny group of wizards in LotR). Which also meant that the M-U didn't need to be able "to call fire and lightning down from the sky every gosh darn day" to feel special. And even if he eventually could, it could take years of gameplay to come so far (today, it takes mere months), so there was a long,long way to go.

The good thing being that the d20 system (which Pathfinder still is part of in all but name) is flexible enough to allow you the necessary modifications to play in low-magic worlds as well.

The Exchange

master_marshmallow wrote:
why was excalibur special? (aside from the sheath which is a completely different magic item discussion all together) it was just more powerful than other swords, it didnt light things on fire, it wasnt exceptionally powerful against one type of foe, it was just better than regular swords were and that made it special

I guess that's a great point, but it is also the reason some of us view +x weapons boring.

Magic items don't need to be exceptional to be special. Excalibur has a name and a legend attached to it and, as you put it, was just better than regular swords were. In other words, it was a unique weapon, even if, in game terms, it may not have been more than a masterwork weapon.

Now the +X weapon of today's D&D/PF is neither unique nor has it a legend or at least a name attached to it. In this respect, it doesn't really feel more special, than say, said masterwork weapon. I don't say that it is a fault per se, especially in a generic rule system where the designers cannot make any assumptions about your game world. But when I think back at the old Bazaar of the Bizarre entries (especially those written by Ed Grenwood) I don't remember the powers of the suggested items. What I do remember is their names and the stories delivered with them. And that's something I really miss in more modern products (including PF).

Which is why I try to add such stories to the items the PCs can find in a magic item shop even if it's just a lousy +1 dagger. Because even if there are a thousand daggers +1, there may only be one Chopper's Carving Knife.

The Exchange

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Damon Griffin wrote:
Can you give me an example of how reading the fiction contributes to the DM's understanding of or preparation for the story the players will be playing out?

Tacticslion already made a most excellent post about it, so I'll just add another example. Between the events of Pathfinder #2 and 3, the party has quite a bit of travelling to make. I found the Pathfinder Journal in #2 invaluable in fleshing out the voyage (which was totally ignored in the adventure itself) between Magnimar and Turtleback Ferry.

I could probably cite other examples, where AP-fiction material directly found its way into my game; the truth, though, is, that I enjoy fiction mostly for it's own sake. And given that I'm one of those people who seldom get the opportunity to run or play in an adventure path, I mostly use the APs just for the enjoyment of reading. Which the fiction is a big part of.

Now it's true that in the meantime, there are other opportunities to get my reading fix. I obviously read the novels and the comics, but on the other hand, I've never come to read the Web Fiction nor the Pathfinder Chroniclers stuff. While I can't exactly say why that is, those outlets doesn't seem to be a good replacement for the AP fiction (which I read regularly), as far as I am concerned.

Meaning that I'd rather have the fiction stay where it is, especially as I'm not too exited about the idea of expanding the bestiary and other already existing AP features and adding new features (like the Set Pieces which I immensely liked) doesn't seem an option from what James said before.

The Exchange Goblin Squad Member

Congratulations, everyone. Jumped on the wagon myself just when we reached the million so now I can at least pretend that it was me who put the last stone in the wall. xD

The Exchange

Well, I'm not quite sure what to think about those changes. Apart from the adventure paths, I'd rather have short Dungeon Mag-Style adventures (the PFS scenarios kinda fill this niche, though I don't have much use for the Pathfinder Society Background). In this respect, the 32-page adventures already were too long for my taste so to explode the format to 64 pages probably is probably even more problematic when it comes to include it in my games.

On the other hand, the Red Hand of Doom - minicampaign was awesome and if the new format allows the authors to explore stories and plots too small for APs but to big for 32-pagers, this may get even better than what I get out of the APs.

Regarding point 2, I'm not sure if I would want to see too much additional material in the books. If it should shorten the adventure too much, then I'd probably not have any use for it anymore. Location backdrops in the vein of the AP #1's Sandpoint article would probably be fine, as would be other fluff. I could do without any additional crunch (if this is necessary for the adventure, it should be included there instead).

I'll surely give it a try though.

The Exchange

lordzack wrote:
I think I'll bring up something I've pointed out before, but I think bears repeating. Volume 3 of the original D&D boxed set mentions Robots, Androids and Cyborgs as potential monsters. So, Sci-Fi elements have been in D&D since day one. So while anyone is perfectly justified in disliking Sci-Fi elements in D&D, as a matter of precedence such things are well established.

This is true, but on the other hand, not all of todays' players were there from the beginning. I started with AD&D 2nd (Realms mainly) and played nearly a decade long before becoming even aware of such influences in D&D. And even then, it wasn't in the form of any material I wanted to use but it was in form of references made by the Dragon/Dungeon staff.

And for people like me, the argument that it was there from the beginning doesn't necessarily hold much water. I have nothing but respect for the inventors of this great game, but reading through the old Dragon issues (and the old rulebooks as well) there are tons of thoughts (from Gary Gygax and other designers) I heavily disagree with. So I don't think that "it was there from the start" should be reason alone to let something stay as it was.

But then, that there are still many people enyoing this is a very good reason. Good enough for me, at least.

The Exchange

TheLoneCleric wrote:
I guess I don't get why there seems to be some very vocal bias against it at all in any fantasy settings.

I guess that depends on which sources define the term "fantasy" for you. For me it was Michael Ende, Tolkien and C.S. Lewis (I'm talking Narnia, not Perelandra^^) and while I learned to know about Howards & co. soon thereafter, in my mind Science Fiction and Fantasy are two totally different things since then.

Now I don't mind a healthy dose of Science-Fiction options in fantasy RPGs for those who like it but generally I tend to avoid such materials. I won't go out of my way to remove it from material I use (I wouldn't rewrite "Children of the Void", for example) but on the other hand, in fantasy settings I tend to simply ignore those regions heavily influenced by science fiction (Numeria and such).

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't play Steampunk settings or something like Star Wars. It's just that if I'm playing fantasy I don't want to explore sci-fi-based stuff.

And I can easily imagine that it breaks the suspension of disbelief for other people so I guess that's where the bias stems from.

The Exchange

shallowsoul wrote:
I'm talking about when a compromise can't be agreed upon or am I always supposed to agree on a compromise?

No you aren't. Not always. Probably not even in the specific scenario you presented in this thread.

I wonder, though, if compromise generally is part of your arsenal as a GM or if you think that the players are the only ones who should compromise at all?

The Exchange

shallowsoul wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you don't seem to understand that compromises are not always made, that sometimes a DM and a player cannot agree on something.

Oh I understand that perfectly well. I had it happen at my own table even. What I don't share is your opinion that in those cases the GM (and remember: I'm speaking from a GM standpoint because that's what I am 90% of the time) automatically should win just because he's the GM. I already explained how I think about it, so I won't repeat it. We could have had a nice chat about our different point of views, but you're obviously not interested in that kind of conversation.

So I'd rather repeat this: Have it your way then.

The Exchange

shallowsoul wrote:
For one thing the CRB says so ...

Think the rulebook has all the answers? Then let's see that rulebook run a campaign - Mike Mearls

This is one of my favorite quotes regarding RPGs (and I could cite Gygax and Cook saying things in a similar vein. I actually think that there may be something in the CRB saying quite the same thing). What is in the core rules isn't the law. It's options. I take those options I like and simply ignore those I don't. And still play Pathfinder (or whichever other system I happen to play). I'm not saying that this is the only way of handling things. I'm just saying that it is mine, so "the CRB says so" isn't really a convincing argument as far as I'm concerned.

and secondly, please tell me how you are going to make a DM run a game that he doesn't want to run or run it a certain way that you want and he/she doesn't.

Well I don't. As said before there are myriads of possibilities, so as long as all parties involved are mature enough there's a solution to find which is acceptable for all. So there's no need to make anyone do anything.

In your specific case, something obviously went wrong, because no such solution was found. I wasn't there so I don't know if someone is to blame. The thing is that I can imagine a lot of ways how this could have been solved (some of them already offered in this very thread). But as far as I can gather from this thread the only option you offered was "just make a new AND different character already".

And I find it hard to believe that this really was the only option which would have been acceptable to you and/or the other players in this group.

The Exchange

shallowsoul wrote:
It takes two people to form a compromise but sometimes there comes a time when both sides can't agree so the power shifts to the DM because he has the final say.

I guess that's where we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think in terms of power when it comes to roleplaying. To me it's a form of collaborative storytelling and I don't consider a game I run to be my game only. Depending on the system and the involvement of the players I may have more responsibilites because I have to run the rest of the setting while the players "just" have to run their character, but it's still our game so if problems or disagreements arise between me and a certain player, I'm happy to let the group (including me and my opponent) decide what to do. That can mean that we do it my way but it can also mean that I have to accomodate the player.

Well and if that's player entitlement, than so be it.

The Exchange

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shallowsoul wrote:
Do you think a player's wish should always be fulfilled?

The answer to that questions has two parts, first being that compromise isn't a one-way street. So no it shouldn't if the other players and/or the GM can't agree with for good reasons.

The second part is that over the years, I've found out that it is much more satisfying for me to run games revolving around what the players want, be it in terms of rules, setting or plot. For example, I actually like long backgrounds because they give me valuable input about what the players actually expect from the game. So if I offer, let's say, the RotRL-AP, I do encourage the players to play characters fitting into the campaign. But I'd rather change the campaign than force them to do so.

The ideal case would be that the campaign I run already fulfils all the wishes the players have. But knowing that this goal isn't reachable 100%, there's need to compromise and in this respect I don't think that the GM should have more say than the players.

This said, if you have agreed to a certain campaign, a certain ruleset and a certain gaming style, the decisions should be binding for all players (including the GM) and shouldn't be changed against the will of anyone in the group. The problem being, that those agreements are made informally most of the time and can be interpreted in different ways. And if you're assuming a "default" way of handling the game, you're actually allowing for a whole mountain of different interpretations. Because your default won't be other people's default most of the time.

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Rynjin wrote:

This is a common thing I see and it always baffles me.

"X exists, so more X isn't bad!"

That wasn't what I said at all. It's more like: if you accept such things just because they are in the rules then you'd better not start talking in terms of consistency and "realism" just because you don't wanna accomodate your players.

Oh and by the way the difference between dumping sand in my back yard and to have a wish as player is that the first thing immediately identifies you as a stupid idiot. And I don't think that that's the same as being a bit too invested in one's character.

The Exchange

Rynjin wrote:
Because it's goofy and uncreative that's why.

The problem I have with that, is that I've yet to see a single campaign (and I've seen many) which didn't include at least parts I consider to be goofy and uncreative. This includes campaigns written by the pros as well as (naturally) my own campaigns.

So in the end, the claim that something is uncreative and goofy (and I'm sure that I have claimed this more than once in the past myself) actually translates into "I simply don't like this".

There may be nothing more goofy and uncreative in the rules than the "raise dead"-spell. Nonetheless it's still considered part of the default assumption about how a pathfinder setting functions.

I don't like resurrection spells at all and can easily imagine to run campaigns where it simply isn't possible (if all players agree beforehand, that is). But assuming shallowsoul's default game includes those spells, I'm wondering why it's considered so bad to allow the player to play a nearly identical twin of it's deceased character if on the other hand it would be considered perfectly valid to revive the character via magic.

It's inconsistent, goofy and not creative? Well, sure, but on the other hands, we all probably know how much creativity a character you're really into can spark.

So if this player is a jerk, the problem isn't the character. But if not, disallowing to play the character he wants to probably causes more harm than good in the long run.

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Baroth wrote:

Hey there, you play that as well or do you just know it?

Have you seen the latest effort by Ulisses Spiele with their survey? They will probably create a new edition as far as I can see. I hope they actually learn from their business partner Paizo because currently their quality control and their business practices are awful.

However, Paizo could learn from them as well and create big hardcover setting books about Golarion. I still dream of 300 pages just about one region or one plane.... :-)

Yeah, the DSA region books belong to the best things ever written for any system (in my opinion at least).

DSA was what actually got me started with roleplaying and I still play it albeit with the old editions only. My kids are 6 and 8 so I need something which isn't too difficult to grasp and the 4th edition fails on this count big time.

I don't know about their awful business practices but I know some of the staff from my time at the Pathfinder translation team and I had the impression that they are genuinely interested in doing their best. I don't know about the experiences you hint at but I had never any problems with them businesswise.

What i do remember is that they had issues with quality control. I'm probably not allowed to talk too much about it but what I can say is that the german market is much more difficult regarding RPGs than the U.S. market. We germans may probably have invented s#~+storms and regardless what you do, you'll get critisized 99% of the time. And especially with international role-playing games there's a large chunk of the audience who'll prefer the original version over the translation no matter the quality. I know some excellent translations from former D&D publisher Feder & Schwert who got burned by criticism just because someone disliked the translation of a specific term.

DSA also has a tradition of being very inclusive as far as fan work is concerned. Problem being that this led many fans to think that they can tell the publisher what to do and what not. So anytime a publisher tries to change anything, we've got a little edition war at hand. And Ulisses trying to reorganize the brand has brought them a lot of badmouthing by people who felt left out.

At the end this means printing relatively small runs at relatively high cost, so they have to calculate quite hard what to afford and what not. I can easily see how this can lead to quality problems in certain areas, though I also have to say that I personally like my DSA books (I'm not looking too hard for existing flaws, so I'm probably just missing them ^^).

The Exchange

Aelryinth wrote:

wormy, what's the RPG #1 game in Germany? Warhammer?


no it's still "Das Schwarze Auge" (DSA, The Dark Eye in english). Published in 1984, it wasn't much more than a D&D clone first, but in the meantime it has developed it's own setting which may be even more detailed than the Forgotten Realms.

The game is a bit more "realistic" than D&D, more medieval and even high-level PCs aren't supposed to be god-like characters who can beat the hell out of demon lords. It also shares the Paizo approach to support the system and the setting mainly through adventures.

And interestingly enough, the publisher (Ulisses Spiele) is the same who publishes the german localisation of the Pathfinder RPG. Which ironically means that, while there is a german version of the Pathfinder Beginner Box, there is still nothing comparable for DSA.

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I found the thoughts about the responsibilities of the industry leader most interesting, though here in Germany, since 1984, this has never been D&D. But having two kids myself I'm glad that Paizo did something like the Beginner's Box, because "our" industry leader has nothing like this (and the rules of "Das Schwarze Auge 4th ed." may well be the most complicated, clunky rules ever written for an RPG (I love it nonetheless but could never use it to introduce my kids into the hobby).

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Rynjin wrote:

Compromise is "You wanna play Pathfinder?"

"Eh, not really. Could you run a Vampire game?"

"To be honest guys, I really hate that system. Got anything else in mind?"

"Maybe we could try Shadowrun?"

"Sure I haven't played that in a while, let's see how that goes."

That is compromise.

So after all, we agree because that's what I'm talking about the whole time.

The Exchange

Bill Dunn wrote:

So if I say to my players, "I'm interested in running some Pathfinder. Who's in?" because I have implicitly ruled out literally thousands of combinations, am I really dictating? What if that's the only game I know how to run? Am I still dictating then?

Now suppose they return, "No, we would really like to play Vampire." are they then the ones dictating because they've ruled out Pathfinder?

To make a suggestion is not ruling out anything. And your players making a counter suggestion isn't ruling out anything either. So up to this point, there is no dictating from either side of the game table.

The interesting thing is what happens next. Are you willing to try and find a solution to which both sides can agree or are you just saying: Well, looks like there is no gaming then.

No there may be perfectly valid reasons why you won't run a Vampires game (for example because you do not even know the rules). But let's just assume for the sake of the argument that you are not only able to run the system but you do even enjoy the game. It's just that you would enjoy Pathfinder even more?

Would you then deny your players their wish just because you want to "maximize your fun" as Shin Hakkaider put it?. Or would you rather fulfil their wish and still having fun?

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Well ruling out certain combinations without taking the input of the players into account IS dictating the game. I know a lot of players who don't have a problem with that because they are content to let to do the GM all the work. Doesn't change the fact that it's still dictating.

The Exchange

ShinHakkaider wrote:
I get the impression that according to you I should present ALL of the AP's and let the players choose.

No. If you feel comfortable presenting just 3 or 4 of them that's still fine. At least your giving them choice.

Also, there really is no choosing together. There are multiple players and ONE GM. If the players decide that they dont want to play something then you (as the magnanimous GM that you are...) are pretty much stuck.

I don't see the problem with that. To define what the players don't want to play is part of the process of finding out what they actually want to play. So they ruled out one of a bazillion possibilities. Poor me.

That is a decision that you make as a GM to be passively involved because to you compromise is more important.

I'm not passively involved it's just that my voice counts as much as each players' voice. I can make suggestions, I can give input as everybody else. And at the end we're deciding together what to do. There's nothing passive about that.

You also dont run one particular system and evil campaigns? So then your fun IS more important than that of your players in those circumstances.

Well I guess then I'm lucky that those circumstances don't exist as far as my players are concerned but technically you're right. But even then, there are a lot of other options available, there is a middleground to find. And by the way, that I don't run these things has as much to do with my abilities as with my preferences. I once tried to run an evil campaign and it was a desaster. I'm simply not good at it. I don't understand where the fun is in playing an evil character so I suck at presenting the players an enjoyable experience.

Be that as it may, but there's still a difference between trying to find a common ground with one's players and just dictating what game will be played.

The Exchange

ShinHakkaider wrote:
If I let perspective players know what type of game that I run and let THEM decide if they want to play I'm a bad / poor / dictatorial GM for running / playing this way?

So you develop a campaign and a game style which are supposed to maximise your fun. Right? And then you invite other players to this game as long as they are content to follow the rules set by you.

That basically means that those players have to compromise in order to partake in your game. They may or may not have the same background as you and me (I'm 40, full-time job and two children, by the way), but the point is that they cannot maximise their fun as long as they haven't exactly the same taste you have (and given that no two persons are equal, this is impossible).

Meaning that the price they pay to be able to play in your game, is to accept that you have more fun than they have.

And there's the difference. I don't believe in my fun being superior to my player's fun just because I'm the GM. From my point of few, being the GM doesn't make me more important and apart from that I'm just a guy like anybody else.

So what I do is to invite my perspective players and then we decide together, what we play. They have the same vote like me, when it comes to which system and which setting to use, which style of game to play, which campaign and so on. Basically, I run what we want, not what I want. Exceptions being one(!) particular system and evil campaigns.

This may sound extreme to you but I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm perfectly aware that other people handle this question in other ways and it may well be that you run great games within the parameters set by you.

But if you're not willing to compromise because you think that your fun is more important than my (or others) fun, just because your the GM and it is YOUR game, I wouldn't be interested to take part in this game.

The Exchange

shallowsoul wrote:

My style of play is known before the game ever starts. If you say yes and roll up a character then you have decided to go with my style of play whatever that may be.

There is no sense in arguing about forcing a style of play on someone because if you didn't like it then you wouldn't be playing in the game to start with.

You just made my point better than I could have.

How is being willing to run a game in one style but not another forcing a style onto your players that they don't like? Because that's what shallowsoul is saying.

No, that's not what he's saying. What he keeps saying throughout the whole thread is that the only opinion that counts is his. It's his game, it's his rules and there is no way he would even think about his players wishes as they already accepted to play exactly the game he offers when they rolled their characters.

The Exchange

Bill Dunn wrote:
There are thousands of possible game configurations I might be willing to run, but because I have certain ones I won't, it's my way or the highway?

Well I'm actually in the same boat with you, so no, that wasn't what I said or tried to imply. What I said was that those thousands of possible game configurations normally allow to find a middleground acceptable for all participants. So if my my players come to me with a suggestion I don't find acceptable my first answer wouldn't be for them to look for another GM. Instead we'll discuss the issue and try to find a solution.

And yes, compromising can mean that I do something I don't find enjoyable too much but am willing to tolerate it for the bigger enjoyment of my players (which is a reward in itself). Like you, there are types of games I won't run or play but on the other hand I wouldn't abuse my position as a GM to force a style of game onto my players they don't like.

The Exchange

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Bill Dunn wrote:
If you, as a group, can't agree with the general style and ground rules, there's no point in playing that particular game with that mix of GM and players.

I agree, but first you should look for a compromise everyone can agree with.

what shallowsoul does (according to his answer to Gaekubs question) is to tell the players that there is no compromise. It's his way or no way.

And that's not cool in my book.

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shallowsoul wrote:
If I can't enjoy it then my dislike will spill over into the game and end up making everyone miserable.

To put it in your own words: "So that is what it's all down to, your fun and your story." No compromises because you think that you're more important than your players.

Well, have it your way, then.

By the way, I'm totally playing by the book, no houserules at all, no fudging. Still: nearly no character deaths.

The Exchange

shallowsoul wrote:
You know before hand that Pathfinder relies on the roll of the dice and unless someone tells you any different you assume you are playing the default.

Well, our default is that the only rule that really matters is rule zero

Or in the words of Mike Mearls: Think the rulebook has all the answers? Then let's the the rulebook run a campaign.

There is no default how to roleplay in general or to play Pathfinder in specific. Just sayin'.

The Exchange

Alitan wrote:
But that's it

Not quite. I've had players develop whole communities with history and all within the frame of their background. Once I used the background of my character to explain why there are wu jen dwarves in Eberron. And so on.

There is a lot of stuff you can implement in the character's background. it's not just childhood and apprenticeship.

@Scaevola: Don't get me wrong. If a character takes a risk, he has to live or die with the consequences. I also don't like fudging too much. So what I do (depending on my players) is to tone down the encounter challenge while granting the PCs boons like hero points to use in emergency situations. So if they don't do anything too stupid, their chances of survival are quite high(not guaranteed, though)

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