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Irontruth wrote:
Lavode de'Morcaine wrote:
Doesn't like the gods and doesn't feel the need to bow to their will. Sentient people of all shapes need to forge their own destinies.

How exactly are you rationalizing him using the spells/revelations?

I hate the gods and how they mettle in mortal affairs.
<something bad happens>
Hold on, let me use this power from the gods to fix that.

You need to add a reason to the character why he uses that power, in spite of his dislike of the gods.

Why should fictional characters be held to a stricter degree of logical consistency than real humans? People are able to rationalize pretty much anything.

An oracle saying "I'm cursed by the gods, but if they're going to give me powers, I should at least make the most of a bad situation" is hardly any less of a logical contortion than you can see any day in reality. I knew a guy who was one of the farther out there of the "government is evil" spectrum who was receiving financial assistance from no less than three government agencies at the time.


Fromper wrote:
Is anyone else reminded of "Gamers: Dorkness Rising"?

Hide behind the mound of dead bards!


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As the final piece of advice that I'll give on this (and I apologize in advance for its length), first let me lead off with a little about myself. I'm a manager now, so dealing with interpersonal issues is part and parcel of my job, but many years ago when I started at my company I was in customer service (and still am, to a much lesser degree). Back before I was in management, my responsibilities would be in supporting between three and five clients at a time, and generally we'd support the same clients for years at a time.

Now, my very first client was, on the face, terrible luck for me to have been assigned to. They were argumentative, they ignored virtually every recommendation we made, and they bitterly complained when they ran into the very pitfalls we tried to steer them away from. My predecessor was fired, and I took over at a substantial disadvantage. They didn't even know me, but they disliked my predecessor, they disliked my company, and by extension they disliked me. They were very seriously considering ending our contract and walking away, even though they would have incurred a substantial cost to do so.

Given such a terrible situation, it was clear from the outset that I couldn't win any arguments with them. Persuading their CEO and other executives wouldn't happen by arguing with them, no matter how great my argument was - they simply would not listen. So I took a different approach.

When I gave them recommendations on some area, I'd test the waters to see how strongly they felt on each point. Without arguing, I discussed the pros and cons of each point and listened to see how strongly they felt. After the meeting ended, I would go to my notes and divide our points of difference into points that they were willing to compromise on, and points they were unwilling to compromise on. I'd also note down the points on which we agreed.

I then tried to come up with the best possible overall solution assuming they got their way on every point they were unwilling to compromise on. As long as I could come up with a proposal that was at least adequate, that became my second proposal to them. I made sure to be clear what the drawbacks would be compared to my first proposal, but then I also presented my best plans for how to deal with those drawbacks. I also tried to emphasize our points of agreement whenever I could, so that they they saw we were working towards a common goal.

Above all, my strategy was to build a rapport with the customer. As long as they saw me as an outsider or an adversary, they never really listened to me or trusted me. I needed to build a common ground to start from, and early on I needed to make many concessions to accomplish this. As time went on, however, they came to accept me and later to like me very much. While I've moved on to management and don't normally do customer work anymore, they are the one customer I've retained, because they are very vocal that I need to remain "on their team", and they won't accept another. Nowadays they follow my recommendations almost to the letter, and they are very happy with my company and our product.

Now, there's no easy recipe for success. My own accomplishments with this client were built slowly and painstakingly over several years, they certainly didn't happen overnight nor were they easy, and I think that will be true in your situation as well. But still, I'd approach this problem like this:

A) If this item hadn't existed at all, would you be absolutely guaranteed to lose the campaign? If the answer is 'no', then you have at least some room to be flexible on this point. It may well be better off in your hands, I won't argue that, but it's not a guaranteed loss if you had to give it up. You still can be successful without it.

B) It seems she's absolutely unwilling to compromise on the sword ownership, but she does seem willing to compromise on character build (feats, etc.). What is the best possible scenario you can come up with GIVEN that she gets the sword? If she was to have the sword, what steps does she need to take to ensure she uses it as best she is capable and does the best for the party and for herself? That's the compromise plan I would take, and the plan I would present to her. Again, you need to consider what's best not just from a game mechanics point of view, but from the point of view of your oracle enjoying the game and enjoying her role on your team.

You cannot win someone to your point of view while the argument endures. That seems counter-intuitive at first, but argument is the least effective form of persuasion. First, do what it takes to end the argument, and only then can you make progress on trying to win them over. Argument isn't a path to success, it's in fact a roadblock to success. You won't make progress until you get the roadblock out of the way.

C) Over time, I'd work at simply building rapport with her. Remember - nobody sees themselves as wrong in their own eyes. You have reasons for what you do, and they make complete sense to you. She has reasons for what she does, and they make complete sense to her. Build a common ground to work from, and even if you do lose this sword this time, consider it an investment into a better relationship with your fellow player. When you've built a common ground, not only will you be able to see her point of view, she'll be able to see yours, and over time the sense of teamwork will pay off for both of you. Having shown her that you are willing to compromise this time will make her more likely to compromise in the future. Think of it as a short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain.

Plus, most importantly, you and she will have more fun playing a game where you can work together rather than being at each others' throats. After all, isn't the pursuit of fun the very reason that everyone first came to that table? This argument is killing that fun, not just for you and her, but for everyone else as well.


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Blue Star wrote:
@Rakinsect: I disagree, there is always a way, I believe that in the deepest depths of my soul, it's a philosophy that I have followed my entire life. There is always a way, even if I have to make it with my own two hands.

There's certainly a way to end the argument, and certainly a way to keep the sword, but there's no way to do both. Not every problem has a perfect solution - you have to choose what is more important to you, party unity or your personal damage, and live with the consequences of that choice. Both paths have pros and cons; your point of view is certainly not wrong. Hers is not necessarily wrong either.

Especially if this has been going on for MONTHS, you're at an impasse. By trying to hold out for a perfect solution that, months later, you haven't found, you're ignoring less perfect solutions that are right in front of your eyes. She's deeply emotionally invested in this argument by now, and you're not going to sway her. She needs to be given a concession to pay off the emotional investment she's made, and nothing short of that will end it.

Your best bet at this point is to make sure the cost of that concession is as small as possible - and that would be why helping her become a better combat character would be the best way to go. Really, an oracle is no worse than a cleric in front-line combat, and can in fact be better (though her character choices preclude that). Try to help build her up and you may be pleasantly surprised.

I know you think her best role is a healbot, but what does SHE think her best role is? Nobody will ever be happy in a role they hate doing, and nobody will play their best in a role they aren't happy with. Even if the healbot is the clearly better choice from a game mechanics point of view, if she's not happy playing that role, it's not going to go well. The trick is to help her find a role she enjoys and also contributes in. What kind of role does she envision herself playing?

If you really want help at dealing with other players, I'd seek it in books, not forums. How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie is a classic and extremely good book on how to deal with people. Though as fair forewarning - his rule #1 about arguments is that you cannot win an argument. He does have great advice about how to extract yourself from an argument, though, and how to win people to your way of thinking without arguing. It's going to require that you work hard to see things from her point of view, though. Until you really understand her, you won't win her to your side.


Blue Star wrote:
She's constantly bringing up that she wants the sword, how do I convince her that it's in the best available hands? To the point she's threatened to stop healing me. I think giving her the sword will end in a pc death or several pc deaths, which I want no part of. How do I get her to understand this?

You can't. It's not possible for you to end this argument by any method other than giving her the sword. If she was willing to give in, she already would have. As with every argument you will get into, you have no control over the other person, only control over you.

So to that end, you really have three and only three options:

A) Continue the campaign and keep the sword, and accept that the argument is only going to get worse as time goes on. Since it will get worse, I'd say the risk of a TPK just from party distrust is greater with this option than the alternative.

B) Continue the campaign and give her the sword, ending the argument.

C) Don't continue the campaign.

There is no other option. You can't control her actions and it's pointless to try. The only thing you can do that will end the argument is to give her the sword.

That said, I think it's perfectly acceptable to make sure she reaches some minimum level of proficiency before giving her the sword. That's a compromise position that both ensures the sword gets used reasonably well, and ensures party unity.